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colliric
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js_cat3391
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it is unfortunate, but we also have to consider that if the church took this position, then others would be justified in trying to shut the Catholic church down using our own church’s official position of shutting down churches that do they do not agree with. If violences are being done to people in a religion, I would expect the church to try and persuade governments to protect people’s human dignity.
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Journey322
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I totally agree with you. Just like there have been countless false rumors floating around about the Catholic Church, the same happens to other denominations as well. People speak of rumors as if they had firsthand knowledge. This simply serves to cause divisions and spite. This is both frustrating and discouraging.
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Journey322
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I just viewed the video. The teaching in Protestant churches that one should give 10% of his income to the church is common. The belief that faithfully tithing can lead to blessings from God is also common. The large screens, charismatic leaders and rock style worship music are also common. These do not indicate cult activity.
The video does not indicate that the church has ATMs in the building as the OP suggests. The reference to a “Money Machine” in the title of the video is referring to the church itself. Considering the size of the church one would expect that, given the tithing practice, they would take in quite a bit of money. They would have to in order to just take care of even the basics of ministry, for instance, heating and electricity.
I do agree however, when I used to attend a Pentecostal church (Hillsong is Pentecostal) that I felt like money was focused on a bit too much. This alone, however, does not make the church a cult. We really need to be careful about placing labels on groups of people. The Catholic church has been on the receiving end of such labeling, so we should have a keen understanding of this.
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colliric
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Agreed, and also it is up to secular authorities to protect their tax payers and scrutinize such organizations to make sure none of the money is going missing and it’s not setup under the guise of a not-for-profit organisation. They need to make sure everyone is paying their taxes correctly.
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ltwin
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To me, it seems that they are using Hillsong Church to complain about the tax free status of churches in general. Seems that they are just out to tax any and all non-profit religious organizations, and they are using Hillsong as an easy target because it brings in so much.
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kentuckyliz
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Beyond the details–why would the Church “do something” about an ecclesial community that doesn’t report to the Church?
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colliric
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Mainstream/Traditional churches are not mentioned in that report at all(and the Reverend, who I believe is Anglican, is cast in a very positive light) . So that’s not correct. It wasn’t “in general” it was quite specific to churches that seem to operate in a business-like manor with large personal profits.
None of the Churches mentioned as making major, untaxed, profits, at the end are Traditional or Mainstream.
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ltwin
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Not sure what you mean by “mainstream”, but traditional churches like the Catholic Church were not mentioned by name. However, at starting around 10:50, the guy says, “I don’t think it would harm Hillsong or any of the other churches to pay their fair way.” And at the end of the report, the news woman talks about government recommendations that religious organizations be taxed. So, yes, the overall thrust of the report was “some church’s are questionable when it comes to the amount of money they make and the amount of charity they give, so we should tax all churches.”
I don’t really care much, since I’m not Australian. But that is the undertone of the report.
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loozcannon
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colliric
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I completely disagree with that assessment as it’s very clear the language, even of the taxation expert, excludes traditional churches. His comment is given in the context of other comments including that of the (presumably) Anglican clergyman that if it’s clear an organization is making personalized profits it should be taxed like other businesses.
Tracy Grimshaw’s summary likewise must be seen in similar light. The Government report was probably not terribly specific enough. She NEVER said “all religious organizations should be taxed”, she said “that religious organizations should be taxed” which could mean either “some organizations” or “all organizations”… It’s just plain not specific, but given the context of the report and it’s subject, it shouldn’t just be assumed as “all”.
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opus101
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Evidently Cardinal Pell has a problem with Hillsong’s “Prosperity Gospel”:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsong
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsong
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ltwin
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That is your assessment of it. I know in the US there are people who think that all churches and even all non-profits should be taxed because then the “gubment” could use church wealth to fund social programs. There are people who don’t make a distinction between “mainstream” as you put it churches and “suspect” churches.
This report does not distinguish between “all”, “some” or just “religious organizations”, so we can’t say people are just targeting churches like Hillsong Church. The argument that churches should “pay their fair share” in taxes could be made about any church, whether they give a lot of charity or not.
Since you’re in Australia, you’d probably have a better grasp on it then I would. I was just throwing out what I saw as an underhanded attack on all religious groups.
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narvaez
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Deus_tecum
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It is covetousness to want to tax a person or entity because one thinks they “make too MUCH money.” As for Hillsong, it appears to be just another AOG church that grew. I know of another megachurch that was open to all but practiced a great deal of outreach in middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods. “Rich people need to know God too!” I was told.
Frankly many of their actions smacked of clever financial planning rather than reliance on Divine Providence. Of course if God has gifted someone with a clever financial mind, why shouldn’t they use it?
Anyway, AOG churches are popular because they believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and people are hungry for that. Unfortunately in one case I know of an AOG church went too far. A man baptized in one reported that the pastor commanded him to speak in tongues immediately after the baptism. after several shouted command from the pastor in front of the entire congregation, the man blurted out some deliberate babble in order to keep to satisfy the pastor.
As for their tithing practices, I grew up in a Catholic church that published each parishioner’s annual cumulative tithe. This created social pressure to give at least 10% of what one was perceived to be earning.
Frankly many of their actions smacked of clever financial planning rather than reliance on Divine Providence. Of course if God has gifted someone with a clever financial mind, why shouldn’t they use it?
Anyway, AOG churches are popular because they believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and people are hungry for that. Unfortunately in one case I know of an AOG church went too far. A man baptized in one reported that the pastor commanded him to speak in tongues immediately after the baptism. after several shouted command from the pastor in front of the entire congregation, the man blurted out some deliberate babble in order to keep to satisfy the pastor.
As for their tithing practices, I grew up in a Catholic church that published each parishioner’s annual cumulative tithe. This created social pressure to give at least 10% of what one was perceived to be earning.
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ltwin
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Well, that is quite wacky. They should no better than that.
Hillsong is an Assemblies of God church and as such is Pentecostal. They do believe in speaking in tongues, but they are not pushy about it. They don’t pressure people to do it. Often, people who know that Hillsong is Pentecostal will attend it having one set of expectations and come away surprised that they didn’t hear any tongues or prophecy in the services.
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colliric
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They are literally and figuratively the head AOG church of Oceania. Senior Pastor Brian Houston is the head of the AOG in Australia, and uses his clout to promote Hillsong. Especially through it’s successful music ministry, which isn’t all bad as it’s essentially non-denominational religious rock music(Most Pentecostal music is very general anyhow).
Hillsong music is allowed to be used in some Catholic churches in Australia(Charismatic Renewal mostly, and Churches with Youth minestry/groups), and they were involved in World Youth Day 2008, organizing a free concert for the event, which many pilgrims attended.
Although Hillsong’s pastors are theologically opposed to Catholicism as most Pentecostal churches are, ecumenically they have worked on establishing ties with the Church(partly because World Youth Day, where their concert was a huge success and popular, made them realize that Catholics love their music too!), and their “preaching” is less anti-Catholic than in alot of Pentecostal churches, for which they have received plenty of criticism from more extreme Pentecostals.
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ispreadthegospe
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Catholicism is NOT Christianity, Catholicism denies the truth, and they follow their teachings instead of the word of God. Plus they promote these photos of Mary which is NOT Mary, Those photos come from Isis and Horace a religion the Catholics stole those photos from. Plus WHITE JESUS isn’t JESUS. Jesus states he is brown skin, because he is from Israel, and he is a Jew. Salvation comes through the Jews, at one point his LOVE was only for the JEWS. but the Jews rejected Jesus so he gave his love to the world, but he said he will bless the Jews that’s why a lot of them are rich and he said he will protect Israel because after the rapture is taken place (the rapture isn’t mentioned in the Catholic church, they deny it.) Jesus said he will return to Israel, and he will be king of all Jews and all of the saved ones, and all Jews will accept him. You’re probably thinking “If Jesus is a Jew, why aren’t you Jewish?” In order to be a Jew you must be born of the Jewish mother, plus Judaism rejects Jesus as their Messiah. I am a Christian, and I hope you don’t fall for the Catholics lie. to learn more, about how to get to heaven according to the bible. Read wattpad.com/85548001-the-truth
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ispreadthegospe
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For Starters Catholicism is NOT Christianity, its a cult that contradicts with the bible’s teachings. They ignore the bible, and follow false teachings instead. Plus they use these photos of Mary which isn’t Mary, its Isis and Horace another religion the catholics stole pictures from. To learn more, please click and read. wattpad.com/85548001-the-truthWell, that is quite wacky. They should no better than that.
Hillsong is an Assemblies of God church and as such is Pentecostal. They do believe in speaking in tongues, but they are not pushy about it. They don’t pressure people to do it. Often, people who know that Hillsong is Pentecostal will attend it having one set of expectations and come away surprised that they didn’t hear any tongues or prophecy in the services.
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