Why doesn't the Church have the power to ordain women to the priesthood?

[Tantum_ergo]

Does anyone have a more helpful answer as to why women are not deacons? I get that the 12 apostles were male and hence priests are male, but why can’t women be deacons?

Well, first, it isn’t the ‘the 12 apostles were male, hence priests were male.’ It’s rather, ‘priests are male, hence the 12 apostles were priests.’ The Jewish priesthood was a male priesthood instituted by God.

While there is some evidence that wives of deacons in the early church were called ‘deaconesses’ and there was a possibility that there was a non-ordained group of women so-called who assisted other women at baptism (because early baptisms were by immersion, nude, and having MEN assist women would have been a sin against chastity), there is no evidence that these women had any other role equivalent to that of deacons, and deacons are considered part of the ‘ordained’.

So women cannot be deacons because in the Church, a deacon is an ordained person. The Church has no power to ordain women. . .either as deacons or as priests. So if the one is mentioned (priest), the other (deacon) should be understood. . .women cannot be ordained in the Catholic Church because the Church has no power to do so, any more than the Church can change the sacraments of baptism by immersing in champagne or marrying a man to a man or confecting the Eucharist with rice and sake.

 

[Little_One0307]

Hiya Guys and gals,

Here’s another document to consider. It is by Pope Paul VI which has much to do with this thread. Jwinch2 this will help in your facebook discussion too. I will include the footnotes as well.

This document can be found here. It is Declaration On The Question Of Admission Of Women To The Ministerial Priesthood: Inter Insigniores

papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6interi.htm

God bless.

 

[jwinch2]

Thanks for that. Unfortunately, I am arguing with a person who says she knows and understands Church teaching on the topic but feels that at some point, the Church will change its position. She is also a Lector, EMHC, and sponsor of our local Campus Ministry which bugs me greatly.

Some of the students at the ministry saw my back and forth with her today and told me later that she is also vocally pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage. The students told me that it is something they all talk about and the exact words they used to describe the situation was "with someone like that around, it is very hard to be Catholic at the Catholic Center… ". They are also openly asking how someone who openly holds those positions can get to do the things she does in the Church.

I am seeking guidance from some people I trust in the Parish and will talk to the Pastor of the Catholic Center when he gets back in town next week from his vacation.

This one is really bugging me…

 

[Jack_Bauer]

Hiya Guys and gals,

Here’s another document to consider. It is by Pope Paul VI which has much to do with this thread. Jwinch2 this will help in your facebook discussion too. I will include the footnotes as well.

This document can be found here. It is Declaration On The Question Of Admission Of Women To The Ministerial Priesthood: Inter Insigniores

papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6interi.htm

God bless.

I read this a long time ago. This was withing 6 months of receiving my first communion. I was 15.

 

[rainbow1]

Well, first, it isn’t the ‘the 12 apostles were male, hence priests were male.’ It’s rather, ‘priests are male, hence the 12 apostles were priests.’ The Jewish priesthood was a male priesthood instituted by God.

While there is some evidence that wives of deacons in the early church were called ‘deaconesses’ and there was a possibility that there was a non-ordained group of women so-called who assisted other women at baptism (because early baptisms were by immersion, nude, and having MEN assist women would have been a sin against chastity), there is no evidence that these women had any other role equivalent to that of deacons, and deacons are considered part of the ‘ordained’.

So women cannot be deacons because in the Church, a deacon is an ordained person. The Church has no power to ordain women. . .either as deacons or as priests. So if the one is mentioned (priest), the other (deacon) should be understood. . .women cannot be ordained in the Catholic Church because the Church has no power to do so, any more than the Church can change the sacraments of baptism by immersing in champagne or marrying a man to a man or confecting the Eucharist with rice and sake.

Thanks for the explanation. I had heard that there were early deaconesses, and your explanation helps.

 

[Seatuck]

Does anyone have a more helpful answer as to why women are not deacons? I get that the 12 apostles were male and hence priests are male, but why can’t women be deacons?

Because Deacons receive a portion of Holy Orders. Women are not the proper matter for Holy Orders. Simple.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Because Deacons receive a portion of Holy Orders. Women are not the proper matter for Holy Orders. Simple.

No, Deacons receive an full, entire Holy Orders. There is no such thing as a portion of Holy Orders. One is ordained into one of the three levels of Holy Orders, but each ordination is full in itself and not a portion of something. There are no “half sacraments”.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It would be the same as the Catholic Church declaring that men are now allowed to concieve, gestate, and bear children.

They might say it, but I am not expecting to see it happen even then.

This is a classic argument but I believe a weak one in the sense that bearing children is something physical, and ordination is something spiritual. For a non-believer or someone who has a different point of view of the faith, it is difficult to reconcile the facts.

We should just explain that every Sacrament has an intended physical sign that reveals the inward reality. Nothing but wheat bread and grape wine can become the Eucharist. Nothing can baptize but water. Nothing can confirm/chrismate but Holy Myron. Nothing can receive Holy Orders and manifes it but a man.

 

[JM3]

I admit to ignorance on whether it’s definitive because the CDF said it is…I accept the teaching of the Magisterium completely, just so you know, but I think this is an area of confusion…

The CDF is the magisterium.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/index.htm

 

[ConstantineTG]

The CDF is the magisterium.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/index.htm

Not really. The magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church. It doesn’t really rest on one individual or office of the Church. Although yes the CDF can issue magesterial statements, they’re not the magesterium per se.

 

[Little_One0307]

Thanks for that. Unfortunately, I am arguing with a person who says she knows and understands Church teaching on the topic but feels that at some point, the Church will change its position. She is also a Lector, EMHC, and sponsor of our local Campus Ministry which bugs me greatly.

Some of the students at the ministry saw my back and forth with her today and told me later that she is also vocally pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage. The students told me that it is something they all talk about and the exact words they used to describe the situation was "with someone like that around, it is very hard to be Catholic at the Catholic Center… ". They are also openly asking how someone who openly holds those positions can get to do the things she does in the Church.

I am seeking guidance from some people I trust in the Parish and will talk to the Pastor of the Catholic Center when he gets back in town next week from his vacation.

This one is really bugging me…

Jwinch2,

I would be bugged. Hence my orginal reply to you. I would talk to your pastor about it. If you have a problem, I would even approach the Bishop after everything has been exhuasted. At least you are getting the truth out there. And that is good.

I will be praying for this situation. Keep me updated with it as new things develop. You are more than welcome to PM me if you wish.

God bless.

 

[Elizium23]

No, the imposition of hands is part of the form of the sacrament. The matter is that which receives the sacrament, as in the bread and wine that become the Eucharist.

This contradicts what the Catholic Encyclopedia says. Do you have a source for your version?

 

[JM3]

Not really. The magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church. It doesn’t really rest on one individual or office of the Church. Although yes the CDF can issue magesterial statements, they’re not the magesterium per se.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651028_christus-dominus_en.html

CHRISTUS DOMINUS

1. In exercising supreme, full, and immediate power in the universal Church, the Roman pontiff makes use of the departments of the Roman Curia which, therefore, perform their duties in his name and with his authority for the good of the churches and in the service of the sacred pastors.

 

[ConstantineTG]

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651028_christus-dominus_en.html

CHRISTUS DOMINUS

Performing with the authority of the Pope doesn’t equate magisterial authority. They also implement laws which isn’t a magisterial function but requires authority, in this case of the Pope. The magisterium really is the Pope and all the Bishops. Its not an office or a specific group of people. The CDF and the rest of the Roman Curia can exercise magisterial authority, but they are not THE magisterium. Again, because the magisterium is “authority”, it is not a person, a title, or an office.

 

[JM3]

Performing with the authority of the Pope doesn’t equate magisterial authority. They also implement laws which isn’t a magisterial function but requires authority, in this case of the Pope. The magisterium really is the Pope and all the Bishops. Its not an office or a specific group of people. The CDF and the rest of the Roman Curia can exercise magisterial authority, but they are not THE magisterium. Again, because the magisterium is “authority”, it is not a person, a title, or an office.

The Pope is THE magisterium. The Bishops become the magisterium when they are in communion with the Pope. The Roman Curia is magisterium by the authority of the Pope.

You will have to show me where I am wrong.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Pope is THE magisterium. The Bishops become the magisterium when they are in communion with the Pope. The Roman Curia is magisterium by the authority of the Pope.

You will have to show me where I am wrong.

You are wrong in that you are equating the magisterium to a person (the Pope) or an office (Roman Curia). Like I said, the magisterium is “authority”. The magisterium is “teaching authoirty”. It is something the Pope and the Bishops HAS, not something they ARE. Also magisterial authority needs to be exercised, its not something thats part of their nature. Not everything the Pope says is infallible.

 

[JM3]

You are wrong in that you are equating the magisterium to a person (the Pope) or an office (Roman Curia). Like I said, the magisterium is “authority”. The magisterium is “teaching authoirty”. It is something the Pope and the Bishops HAS, not something they ARE. Also magisterial authority needs to be exercised, its not something thats part of their nature. Not everything the Pope says is infallible.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P74.HTM

CCC

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 **The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach **the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

 

[JM3]

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404

 

[ConstantineTG]

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P74.HTM

CCC

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

Just read the entire sentence, you seem to be limiting yourself to what you highlight. Again, the magisterium is a WHAT, not a WHO. This is the statement you said which I said is wrong, “the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him are the magisterium.” This is the correct thing to say, “the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him HAVE magisterial authority.”

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404

You are confusing things. The authority of Bishops is not limited to their teaching authority. Not just because you see the word “authority” it means its the magisterium. But you are correct that if a Bishop is not in communion with the Pope they they do not wield this teaching authority or any other authority. The reason is they are outside the Catholic Church in that state.

 

[vsedriver]

If it has the authority to bind and to loose.

but it has the authority to discontinue communing baptized infants (well, speaking about the Latin Rite anyway)?

Changing when you receive the Eucharist doesn’t change the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Ordaining women changes the Sacrament of Holy Orders. It is the equivalent of using cookies and punch for Holy Communion.