Why Don’t Fundamentalists Call Mary “Blessed”?

[JKirkLVNV]

RyanL's Wife:

I agree, She didn’t know and Mary did a great and awesome thing by saying “be it done until be according to thy word” or as many like to say “fiat”. However, I still don’t see how this proves that she was absolutely essential in the salvation of man-kind — That God couldn’t have saved us in another way if he had seen fit.

Nevertheless, I am still curious if that is something I HAVE to believe as a Catholic. (see post # 76 for the original question)

Thanks,
RyanL’s Wife

Sorry, I meant to respond. The answer is that I’m not sure and I would ask a priest or an apologist. My inclination is to say that it is an essential to believe that She IS essential to salvation in terms of the history of faith (ie, we can look back and see the absolute need for and benefit from Her “yes”). “Had to be essential?” It’s a bit of a moot point, I tend to think. But ask.

 

[IanS]

RyanL's Wife:

I agree, She didn’t know and Mary did a great and awesome thing by saying “be it done until be according to thy word” or as many like to say “fiat”. However, I still don’t see how this proves that she was absolutely essential in the salvation of man-kind — That God couldn’t have saved us in another way if he had seen fit.

Nevertheless, I am still curious if that is something I HAVE to believe as a Catholic. (see post # 76 for the original question)

Thanks,
RyanL’s Wife

I don’t recall this ever being an official teaching of the Church. Although I’m sure there are others who know far more than I.

All I do know is that God does not violate the free will He gave us out of love, and force us to say “yes” to Him. I also know that He is all knowing and all seeing so he already knows us better than we know ourselves. Therefore, it is impossible for Him to ask a question of us He does not already know the answer to. But He will still ask for our own sake as to not violate the gift of free will he gave us.

I know this personally, because I was raised in a very secular home, and never really accepted Jesus until I was in my 20’s. However, I now realize that Jesus has had is finger on me my whole life and He knew that when asked I would be prepared to say “yes”. And when I did, I kept saying “yes” all the way to Rome.

His ways are as far above ours as the heavens are above the earth.

 

[imroc]

Daniel Marsh:

It is because some Catholics go too far in their devotion to Mary that many of us shy away from such.

Hey Daniel! Thanks for the post, it was nice and very reasurring. I was wondering if you could discuss the above quote just a bit further. I’m not trying to bring on a debate, I ask out of sincerity for the sake of knowledge. Thanks and God Bless!

imroc

 

[TamaraS]

RyanL's Wife:

I agree, She didn’t know and Mary did a great and awesome thing by saying “be it done until be according to thy word” or as many like to say “fiat”. However, I still don’t see how this proves that she was absolutely essential in the salvation of man-kind — That God couldn’t have saved us in another way if he had seen fit.

Nevertheless, I am still curious if that is something I HAVE to believe as a Catholic. (see post # 76 for the original question)

Thanks,
RyanL’s Wife

I, along with others, think you should post this on Ask an Apologist if you want to find out for sure.
But I was thinking about something this morning. I know that Mary didn’t have any knowledge of this before the Angel appeared to her. And I know that God has given us free will, so I guess essentially she could have said no. But I do think God has chosen certain people to play a direct role in Salvation history and I do believe Mary was one of those people. He won’t interfere with our free will to say no, but that has never stopped him from “forcing” us to do his will. Look at some examples-
Moses- he didn’t want to do what God chosen him for, and even tried to talk his way out of it, but God did not let him back out nonetheless.
Jonah- he used his free will to say no by trying to run away from what God chose him to do, but look what happened to him. And he still wound up fulfilling God’s mission for him anyway.
Paul- he could have used his free will tried to continue to persecute Christians, but he instead went on to be one of the greatest Apostles. I’m sure if he had said no, God would have found some other way, so to speak, through paul, not just someone else. Because God said that he would use Paul- and God has never been proven wrong on his word yet.
Mary- He chose her for his greatest mission for another human being. She was to concieve, give birth, raise, and follow God in the Flesh. Remember, the Angel did not ask her. He told her this would happen. She humbly accepted, unlike Paul, who had to be blind-sided before he would do God’s will. And unlike Jonah and Moses who tired to run away first. That is what makes her the most perfect Christian. That is why I don’t think he would have just moved on to something else. She chose him humbly without running or trying to talk herself out of it.
God WILL use us if he so choses us for such a great mission whether we want to or not or whether we even think we are qualified. We have free will because God wants us FREELY to follow him. He gave us free will because he wants us to freely chose to love him and do his will, but his Will will be done nonetheless. I hope this helps, sometimes I ramble on and I haven’t really made a point.
Tamara

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Ok, to expand that thought.

In our view, Jesus Christ is the centerpiece of God’s table. And, anyone who is made to look like Jesus ( sinless, assumption, typology ) is ignored as someone’s imagination running wild.

An example of going too far would be books like Glories of Mary for example.

Some protestants have gone as far as seeing Mary as an anti-christ. Where anti-christ is defined as “taking the place of Christ himself”.

We are use to praying to Jesus. Prayers to Mary or the saints is viewed as taking Jesus place thus the one mediator quotes from scripture.

Jesus was taken up to heaven, thus Mary’s assumption is viewed as trying to be a female Jesus.

Jesus is the redeemer, thus calling Mary co-redeemer is viewed as making Mary an anti-christ who is trying to replace Jesus.

Jesus was sinless, thus making Mary sinless is viewed as making Mary take Christ’s place.

Basically, each of the doctrines, teachings applied to Mary are compared to Jesus Christ and his Work. When the teachings comcerning Mary line up with what Jesus is or has done, then those are viewed as trying to take Jesus place.

Many protestants think of John the Baptist example of the creature becoming less so that Jesus may become more.

Catholics who have gone too far are viewed as Making Mary ( the creature ) more and thus making Jesus less important.

To change this understanding my Catholic brothern need to talk alot more about Jesus and sometimes speak about people like Mary.

Attributes of God have been applied to Mary by a few catholics and I think this is likely from poor theological common sense. In fact, there is a thread here somewhere about Mary’s omni- something, I forget what. In that thread, I pointed out the nature of heaven itself.

With a protestant, you would be better to say that our guardian angel makes side trips while visiting heaven on a daily basis to let our loved one’s know what is happening in our lives, so that our loved ones could pray for us. The book of Job says that angels, or sons of god, visit heaven on a daily basis.

The concept of humans seeing everything we do simply freaks us out. Whereas, the idea that God sees all is more abstract and does not bother us.

 

[josephdavid]

Easy answer to the questioin posed in this thread. They choose to reject certain scripture to not be Catholic.

Committing heresy to not sound Catholic. Ignorant and dangerous. Sorry to sound harsh but it is true.

 

[TamaraS]

Yes, Protestants do feel that Catholics put too much amphesis on Mary or the saints, and not Jesus.
For one thing, in my own personal experience, almost all the Catholics that I come into contact with (and there are a lot because I’m Catholic) never talk about Mary. So I really think that there often is not as much personal emphesis on her OVER Jesus as one might imagine.
And remember that everything we as Catholics do or think regarding Mary and the saints point us even closer to Jesus. There isn’t anything that we believe or practice that takes away from our worship of Jesus. It’s like- by my husband and I having children, even though we devote a great amount of physical time to our children and it appears to take away from each other, that simply is not true. It makes our relationship to one another greater, it even brings more meaning to our relationship. We don’t only have a certain amount of love and devotion to give, and then each time we direct it to yet another person it diminishes our devotion or what we feel for whoever ever else we have directed to. The more love that we have for someone will give an ever- greater capapcity to love even more. That’s how it is with Mary and the saints with Jesus. EVERYTHING about them simply point to our Jesus.

For one example- I often look at what some people think about our art and our church buildings. People think “look at those staues!” Or because our church is called, say, “St.Francis of Assisi”. Why not named after Jesus? Or they hear our prayers and say “whenever you pray that, don’t you see that you are spending that time towards another when it should be at Jesus?” Just look at it this way- our prayers to saints and Mary are directed at our Lord or something to do with our Lord in the first place. That one prayer at mass may mention various saints or the church may be named after a saint, but what does that saint stand for or represent? And look- our whole BUILDING or the ENTIRE mass is for God. For as much love as we have for Mary and the saints- imagine how much more must be our Love to God. If I see someone with a tremendous amount of love or respect for the saints, I know that so much more there must be for our Lord.
For how much devotion you may see we have for our saints, there’s so much more for our God.
A lot of things are just misunderstood.
-Tamara

 

[IanS]

Daniel Marsh:

Some protestants have gone as far as seeing Mary as an anti-christ. Where anti-christ is defined as “taking the place of Christ himself”.

We are use to praying to Jesus. Prayers to Mary or the saints is viewed as taking Jesus place thus the one mediator quotes from scripture.

Interesting perspective, but I think you may be misunderstanding the meaning. We do not pray TO the Saints like Jesus, we ask them to pray or intercede for us. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let me ask you this, if I were to ask you to pray for me, would I be replacing Jesus with you? Of course not, but there is power in numbers, and the greater the multitude of prayers that are made on our behalf the closer everyone comes to God. The Saints are intercessors not replacements for Jesus.
Daniel Marsh:

Jesus was taken up to heaven, thus Mary’s assumption is viewed as trying to be a female Jesus.

What about Enoch and Elijah? Plus Jesus ascended by His own power he was not assumed.
Daniel Marsh:

Jesus is the redeemer, thus calling Mary co-redeemer is viewed as making Mary an anti-christ who is trying to replace Jesus.

The term Co-redeemer or Co-redemptrix, as the Pope puts it, may seem to suggest that Christ does not redeem alone, but somehow needs a partner and that’s just wrong. It means “cooperator with the Redeemer”, its Latin prefix, “cum”, does not denote equality or partnership, but accompaniment (as in co-star or co-pilot). It really suggests dependence and subordination, and in the case of Mary, it refers to Mary’s association with Jesus Christ.

St. Paul says “we are God’s co-workers” in I Cor. 3:9, the Greek word is “synergoi”… and of course, Virgin Mary is a unique God’s Co-Worker since Bethlehem to Calvary.
Daniel Marsh:

Jesus was sinless, thus making Mary sinless is viewed as making Mary take Christ’s place.

I think this has already been covered, but we can discuss it if you want.

 

[josephdavid]

TamaraS:

For one example- I often look at what some people think about our art and our church buildings. People think “look at those staues!” Or because our church is called, say, “St.Francis of Assisi”. Why not named after Jesus?

As for statues no different than we erect statues and monuments around Washington D.C. It is inspired artwork. Nothing more.

Or they hear our prayers and say “whenever you pray that, don’t you see that you are spending that time towards another when it should be at Jesus?”

Because of the Rosary I find myself much closer to Jesus. Especially when I pray a Scriptural Rosary. Most who blast the Rosary never really looked to what the Prayers are and what the Rosary consists of.

For as much love as we have for Mary and the saints- imagine how much more must be our Love to God.For how much devotion you may see we have for our saints, there’s so much more for our God.

It is through their inspriation that we are binded even more with our Faith. .

A lot of things are just misunderstood.
-Tamara

Misunderstandings happen are accept but it is ignorance if one does not educate themselves about why one does what… If they would read and study scripture better and ask questions and search for answers they will find knowledge.
I have a Born Again family some have never been in a Catholic Church or even learned about it. They blindly throw scripture at me with out really understanding the scripture themselves.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I was asked a question, not to get into an argument.

If you want to really reach protestants, stop talking about only Mary with them. Start talking about Jesus 99 percent of the time with them.

As for the assumption, I would throw in the assumption of Moses too. Many do not know that Jewish religion believes that Moses was assumed into heaven. See a book called Legends of the Jews for documentation. With the Moses assumption, point out the arguments from both sides like the battle over the body of Moses in Jude, the death of Moses recorded in Torah. What Josephus says on the topic and so on. Then contrast the assumption of Moses, Elijah and ??? with the assumption of Jesus — that Jesus will return. On the assumption of Mary I am neutural because of the lack of historical evidence. But, I leave open as a possiblity as I would for any apostle or disciple that we do not have writings about their deaths.

When discussing the sinless nature of Mary, start with Eze 18 and contrast her grace gift with Jesus nature as fully God fully man. And, bring in the historical evidence.

When discussing Mary as co-redeemer, stop belittling protestants. But, start with a formal statement from catholic sources of what it does mean followed by a simple summary outline of the salient points in the above documents. Allow them to disagree. These are not doctrines in our mindset that has to do with our salvation.

But, could be viewed as “another gospel” Gal 1:6-8 because we see you replacing Jesus with Mary as God’s centerpiece on the table.

And, that is the key, who is center to your life. You must remember, that protestants are people looking in from the outside. Ex-catholics are those who were where you are now, and saw first hand too much emphesis on Mary and the Saints and not enough emphesis on Jesus Christ – otherwise why would they look elsewhere for Jesus?

 

[TamaraS]

josephdavid:

Misunderstandings happen are accept but it is ignorance if one does not educate themselves about why one does what… If they would read and study scripture better and ask questions and search for answers they will find knowledge.
I have a Born Again family some have never been in a Catholic Church or even learned about it. They blindly throw scripture at me with out really understanding the scripture themselves.

I can symphathize with you. My husband and I are the only Catholics in his family. His parents and sister are athiests, and his brothers and their wives belong to other denomiations. We don’t usually receive too many open attacks (they are always very kind), but we have gotten questions like “why did the Catholic Church add books to the bible”, as well as the usual mary questions. And another relative saw one my books about Ann Catherine Emmerich and said “she’s a mystic, isn’t she?” I’m sure they think we’re just misguided pagans or something, but they usually keep their commemts to themselves.One of my in-laws in particular does some very questionible things, so as time goes on, my in-laws continue to drive a bigger wedge between any chance of my husband’s parents and sister ever becoming Christians because they continually to restrict themselves ever more every time we see them, while my husband and I sit back and prove that there is nothing to fear from Catholicism
Tamara

 

[TamaraS]

I was asked a question, not to get into an argument.

If you want to really reach protestants, stop talking about only Mary with them. Start talking about Jesus 99 percent of the time with them.

I have never brought up Mary first. That is usually what non-catholics bring up first because it is the most troubling for them. I actually prefer to talk about other issues first. Usually if you understand other issues such as Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, then Mary or Purgatory is easier to understand, too. I would never try to force Mary upon anyone. Trying to force something on another person does no good at all, and it’s not charitable.

And, that is the key, who is center to your life. You must remember, that protestants are people looking in from the outside. Ex-catholics are those who were where you are now, and saw first hand too much emphesis on Mary and the Saints and not enough emphesis on Jesus Christ – otherwise why would they look elsewhere for Jesus?

I think that it has been established quite well on previous threads that most of the time, if a person is an ex-Catholic, that when they share what they “know” about the Church, that usually it is just the same misconceptions that other Christians have when “they are on the outside looking in.”
I hope this helps.
Tamara

 

[IanS]

Daniel:

It seems like most of the problem here is not really with the Marian Dogmas themselves, but more of what people choose to make of them.

If some Catholics take the teachings regarding Mary too far then they are in heresy and need to be rebuked (in a loving manner of course). This is in no way a problem with the Church or the teachings themselves.

If non-Catholics automatically presume the teachings on Mary say things that the really don’t or don’t say things that they really do, without taking the time to look into it or even ask, is that really the Churches’ fault?

I doubt too many non-practicing Catholics have really taken the time to learn about the Marian Dogmas or anything else about their faith. If they took just a little time, they would probably see that there is not one thing in the Holy Mother Church that does not totally revolve around Jesus.

I personally am really trying to learn my faith well, and to not make any more or any less out of the truths that are revealed to me.

Peace.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

IanS, that is just your opinion.

How does that feel?

When you used those words towards myself, that is where I stopped reading this thread with a serious mind to understand.

 

[IanS]

Daniel Marsh:

IanS, that is just your opinion.

How does that feel?

When you used those words towards myself, that is where I stopped reading this thread with a serious mind to understand.

I never claimed it wasn’t. It feels just fine to me. That’s what the forums are for.
Peace

 

[gloryb]

ComradeAndrei:

Anything that might give a point to Rome is to be avoided by the fundamentalists.

Very noticeable among them is that they name their children after biblical people and yet very, very few would ever name their daughter Mary!!! I have seen women named Eunice and Lois in a Baptist church which did not have one Mary.

I think in my next conversation with my Baptist friends I will find out why they have an aversion to doing this.

Gloria

 

[bekalc]

I"m getting more use to Mary as a convert. But can I say when I was talking to my Aunt who is a practicing Catholic about becoming a Catholic. All I started to hear from her, was Mary. Mary. I’m devoted to Mary. I love the Mother of God. My Church is highly Mary centered. Mary more and more. She mentioned God a couple of times, but it was mainly Mary. Mary. Mary.

I sat there and I’m thinking to myself. Maybe a there really is a Marian problem! Thanks Aunt, but I think I’ll stick with my parish. I’m getting use to Mary, and I’m starting to truly view her as my Mother. But well I wish my Aunt would have realized that hey, she’s been Protestant all her life!

 

[hurst]

RonWI:

The judgment against us (which we deserve) has been paid by Christ.

What do you mean it has been paid? It is not that a legal penalty has been paid, as much as the offense of our sins has been atoned and grace obtained for us to live according to the commands of God.

Do you think that it included unconditional payment for temporal punishments due to sins? But that is not the case, because we all experience it even now.

RonWI:

Therefore, we need not fear its infliction on us.

That is only if we cooperate with God’s grace and persevere.

RonWI:

I read your post to suggest that you are less than certain that because of our faith, we avoid God’s wrath – that your actions may provoke God to justice. That is a fearful thought indeed!

In fact, it is not by faith, but by charity that we avoid God’s wrath.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity, from a pure heart, and a good conscience, and an unfeigned faith.

1 Peter 4:8 But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins.

1 John 4:16 And we have known, and have believed the charity, which God hath to us. God is charity: and he that abideth in charity, abideth in God, and God in him. 17 In this is the charity of God perfected with us, that we may have confidence in the day of judgment: because as he is, we also are in this world.

Apocalypse 2:4 But I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first charity.

Mary is blessed not only for believing, but for bearing fruit in charity. And just as the Father offered His Son for us, so she offered her Son for us, also, in cooperation with God.

hurst

 

[hurst]

RyanL's Wife:

I agree, She didn’t know and Mary did a great and awesome thing by saying “be it done until be according to thy word” or as many like to say “fiat”. However, I still don’t see how this proves that she was absolutely essential in the salvation of man-kind — That God couldn’t have saved us in another way if he had seen fit.

Well, let’s start with the same concept on our end…

Do you believe God can save me in another way without me saying “Yes” to Him myself? Can God save me against my will? Doesn’t God require that I personally believe and say “Yes” to Him, in order for me to be saved?

Perhaps you might think God “can” save me against my will, but I would also think you believe He “wouldn’t” do that because it wouldn’t be fitting.

Now, every person who believes and says “Yes” is simply following the example of Mary. But without her particular “Yes”, our “Yes” wouldn’t have anything to work with. Hers was the prototype, ours is an imitation. Hers brought forth the original fruit, ours shares what she conceived.
RyanL's Wife:

Nevertheless, I am still curious if that is something I HAVE to believe as a Catholic. (see post # 76 for the original question)

If our own “Yes” is absolutely essential for our own salvation, then Mary’s “Yes” is absolutely essential for humanity’s salvation. In this we see a good reason to Hail her above all the saints, and call her our Mother, truly. Still, a “Yes” is not effective if there is nothing to say “Yes” to, and thus all the power of anyone’s “Yes” is rooted in what God does, Who initiates it.

Also note that even today we rely on the “Yes” of the bishops and priests to give themselves to the service of God for us to receive the Word and Flesh of Christ today. They follow the example of those before them, all of whom were able to do so because of Mary, whose Son they serve. For the Church is the presence of Christ in the world, teaching and feeding us on our way to salvation, and being the charity of God to all.

hurst

 

[hurst]

IanS:

Interesting perspective, but I think you may be misunderstanding the meaning. We do not pray TO the Saints like Jesus, we ask them to pray or intercede for us. Nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, we can also pray directly “to” saints, if we ask of them something they possess. Do we not ask people on earth for money, food, or other material help because those people have control of such resources themselves? Do we not “pray” to the court or the people when making petitions within the legal system? But yes, we also and usually ask for intercession.

Now, the Church teaches we acquire merits according to our good works done in the grace of God. Saints in heaven have “bags” of graces from which they themselves can dispense the grace of God.

Luke 12:33 Sell what you possess and give alms. Make to yourselves bags which grow not old, a treasure in heaven which faileth not: where no thief approacheth, nor moth corrupteth.

Romans 9:23 That he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory?

We can ask of them directly, knowing they have the favor of God, particularly in those things we know about their lives.

All of this, though, is founded on the work of Jesus Christ, and is in the grace He merited for us.

Ephesians 2:7 That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus.

John 14:12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

hurst