Why don't more "Traditionalists" get hands-on with the liturgy?

[saint_rafael]

Can you please explain to me why EMHCs are allowed in some of the parishes of the Diocese of Rome?

Modernism is alive and well in parishes in Rome. The Papacy has been isolated for decades. They don’t govern anything anymore. The Church is ungovernable.

Pope John Paul II gave up on doing anything about EMHC after Dominicae Cenae was ignored in 1980. Pope Benedict has done nothing on this either.

An example of how dysfunctional things are is the feast of the Ascension of Our Lord. This was traditionally celebrated forty days after Easter. This year it fell on Thursday. Pope Benedict and the Vatican celebrated it on Thursday. The diocese of Rome celebrated it on Sunday because the Conference of Italian Bishops actually runs the show in Italy.

There are problems when the bishop of Rome celebrates a feast on its proper day but has no power to have this done for the diocese he supposedly is in charge of.
The Holy Father is isolated.

 

[LJN21]

Maybe the solution for you and the others who suffer abuses and heretical Priests is to start attending Mass where the Traditonalists do. At the Traditional Latin Mass you won’t find any abuses, and will get only orthodox preaching.

While I’ve never seen abuses, I have heard some pretty unorthodox teaching. Trying to stay charitable, lets just say he seemed to be inventing sins.

The reason why, most likely, is that until the Missal of Pope Paul VI, there were no such things as readers or EMHCs. They are still prohibited in the old rite.

Of course, as you say, there’s nothing to stop us being altar servers or to get involved in catechesis. Though, I would make the point that Priests should be involved in catechesis much more than they are now. It’s part of their Ministry, and a place where they have a special grace to teach the faith.

Spiller: let me make one thing very clear. EMHCs were not allowed before the new Mass came along. Even now, the Holy See goes to lengths to specify when and how they should be used. The document Redemptionis Sacramentum makes it very clear that in the vast majority of cases they are used it is likely without necessity and thus unlawful.

And what palmas85 said is true. Traditionalists are shunned in many places, as I know from first-hand experience… (“oh, the Latin Masssssss! That’s horrible!”)

To add to this point. My MIL tried to teach a confirmation class at her local parish, which was considered the most “traditional” of the churches here in this city. When the kids came home talking about how Artificial Birth control, premarital sex and the like were sins, they literally banned her from having any contact with the ER program and the children of the parish.

If I can be so bold…traditionalists don’t get more hands on with the liturgy because we believe the liturgy is not something laymen should get their hands on.

This.

I know you disagree Spiller, I don’t wanna get in to a debate about whats good for the Church, whats not and whats allowed and whats not. A large number of the traditionalist, I know (who attend both the EF and the OF), feel that the lectors and the vast numbers of EMHCs and all the rest are modern inventions. They undermine a host of things in the Church and have contributed to decay of respect for the Mass and respect for the Eucharist. Yes, I know this is very general and somewhat vague, but I get the over all impression your looking more for a fight then an answer.

 

[Spiller]

By the way. I am going to Wyoming Catholic College, so that when I am finished, I will have a degree to back up my words when I face off with choir directors, EMHC, priests, bishops and whoever else is disrespecting Our Lord and The Church! I am happy to do this and am so excited, but it is a great financial burden on my family and it will take four years of my life. Just remember that many people are trying, and most trads are trying the hardest. So don’t put us down, the liberals are already doing a good job of that.

Don’t count on it. If I know the school you are talking about, it’s almost brand-new, it’s tiny and it’s viewed by quite a few as being more than a bit extremist.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

No. No way would I have cut and run.

What do you mean cut and run? Do you consider yourself to be “better” because you attend a Mass that is full of abuses? Do you think that attending the Traditional Mass that is celebrated with the due respect is cutting and running?

I also would never want to be part of a community whose foundation is largely judging others nor do I want to go into schism.

You just judged me. You implied that I belong to a community that judges others, which was a judgment on your part; and you also implied that I was in schism, which I am not. You are guilty of two subjective judgments in that one sentence. You are guilty of the very thing you said you would not do.

Yes, and let us be sure to thank God for all of the Traditional Priest that he has given us, who celebrate a reverent Mass and preach the true faith. Fortunately this is now spreading, and we should thank God for that.

 

[palmas85]

Like what?

(I would be the first to agree that I am not a “Traditionalist.” I am a traditionally-minded Catholic Christian.)

Catholic Christian. Interesting that you say that, you know combining the two words. To me the two mean the same thing. Exactly the same thing

Don’t they mean the same thing to you? Or do you find some need to combine them as many do these days. Almost as if just being identified as Catholic isn’t enough anymore.

 

[Spiller]

I know you disagree Spiller, I don’t wanna get in to a debate about whats good for the Church, whats not and whats allowed and whats not. A large number of the traditionalist, I know (who attend both the EF and the OF), feel that the lectors and the vast numbers of EMHCs and all the rest are modern inventions. They undermine a host of things in the Church and have contributed to decay of respect for the Mass and respect for the Eucharist. Yes, I know this is very general and somewhat vague, but I get the over all impression your looking more for a fight then an answer.

So? The Church has the authority and not them. Once anyone begins to believe they know better than the Church, all bets are off…

I actually think I have received some great feedback. Someone mentioned that few really knew what was going on before the Internet (and EWTN) really took off. I agree with that. Others said they did what they were told – period, and suffered in silence. That sounds quite honest too. I would also suggest in that many ways that period was even more septic in some ways than today. It was not an opportune time to introduce change…

 

[Spiller]

Catholic Christian. Interesting that you say that, you know combining the two words. To me the two mean the same thing. Exactly the same thing

Don’t they mean the same thing to you? Or do you find some need to combine them as many do these days. Almost as if just being identified as Catholic isn’t enough anymore.

Yeah?

So you are suggesting that Protestants and the Orthodox are also Catholic? They are certainly Christians…but Catholics?

 

[Spiller]

What do you mean cut and run? Do you consider yourself to be “better” because you attend a Mass that is full of abuses? Do you think that attending the Traditional Mass that is celebrated with the due respect is cutting and running?

The sspx is a prime example of cutting and running.

You just judged me. You implied that I belong to a community that judges others, which was a judgment on your part; and you also implied that I was in schism, which I am not. You are guilty of two subjective judgments in that one sentence. You are guilty of the very thing you said you would not do.

Poppycock. Read Ecclesia Dei.

APOSTOLIC LETTER
“ECCLESIA DEI”
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
GIVEN MOTU PROPRIO

5c) In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.

Yes, and let us be sure to thank God for all of the Traditional Priest that he has given us, who celebrate a reverent Mass and preach the true faith. Fortunately this is now spreading, and we should thank God for that.

Is that similar to a Catholic priest?

 

[Margarite]

Don’t count on it. If I know the school you are talking about, it’s almost brand-new, it’s tiny and it’s viewed by quite a few as being more than a bit extremist.

Why didn’t you respond to the rest of my post?

And what do you mean by this? Every school has to have it’s beginning, and the curriculum is very much like that of TAC’s and TAC is a very well known and respected school. Every single student who attended the first year at Wyoming Catholic college is returning for a second year. If you ask me that says allot! The only reason why people think of it as extremist is because of their outdoor activities which they have added to the normal classes. I leave in four weeks to hike for the entire month of August in the wilderness, I will ride horses, and in the winter I will hike for another week. This is the only “extreme” thing that makes them different from TAC or Christendom. I’m sorry that some people are so narrow minded that they can’t see a wonderful Catholic school when it starts. They would probably prefer the Catholic in name only Notre Dame. No thanks. I am extremely excited about the entire experience at WCC. They also have, by the way, a priest who knows how to say the TLM, the Byzantine, and the hybrid NO masses. That is also extremely exciting for me.
As my father pointed out, I am leaving Purgatory and going to a little piece of heaven where the word Catholic is lived to the fullest.

 

[saint_rafael]

Don’t count on it. If I know the school you are talking about, it’s almost brand-new, it’s tiny and it’s viewed by quite a few as being more than a bit extremist.

That’s because it an actual Catholic college with a real Catholic curriculum, orthodoxy, and the students believe in God and practice Catholicism.

That college doesn’t have a Queer Studies department, the Vagina Monologues, Pro-choice student group, heretical priests, eco-feminist pantheist theology, or any other abominations found in Catholic universities.

Modernists tend to view Catholicism as extremist.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Don’t count on it. If I know the school you are talking about, it’s almost brand-new, it’s tiny and it’s viewed by quite a few as being more than a bit extremist.

Thats polite.

Actually, that college is a theologic wellspring- one of the few truly Catholic colleges left. That school, Christendom, Ave Maria, Dallas, Steubenville, and Thomas Aquinas.

And in regards to this post, why is Spiller allowed to complain about traditionalists, but the slightest criticism of Spiller’s argument is suddenly a “red herring” or “personal attack”?

 

[Margarite]

Yeah?

So you are suggesting that Protestants and the Orthodox are also Catholic? They are certainly Christians…but Catholics?

To be Catholic is to be Christian, but to be Christian is not to be Catholic. You as a Catholic should call protestants: protestants, and Orthodox: Orthodox. Those words describe them exactly. Why use the word Christian when it is so confusing nowadays. Instead use the words that best describe them

PS:
I agree with you about the SSPX. They are pathetic, that they couldn’t accept those simple five conditions. But yes, there are many abuses in the Church, but the Church itself is perfect. The SSPX needs to come into the Church and help in the struggle against the liberals in the Church who are perpetuating the abuses, not stand outside and laugh and scorn those of us who are trying.

 

[Spiller]

Thats polite.

Actually, that college is a theologic wellspring- one of the few truly Catholic colleges left. That school, Christendom, Ave Maria, Dallas, Steubenville, and Thomas Aquinas.

And in regards to this post, why is Spiller allowed to complain about traditionalists, but the slightest criticism of Spiller’s argument is suddenly a “red herring” or “personal attack”?

I always get a chuckle out of that mantra – I hear it a lot. It’s just not true.

I would rather have my kids attend a TOP-RATED school like Stanford, Cal, Notre Dame or Harvard for academics because I know they have the spiritual and religious formation not to be led astray (which can happen just about anywhere) and because they would most certainly have a strong and orthodox worship and formation support system – perhaps outside of school if necessary.

 

[CatholicCajun]

Why don’t we get involved?

Well, first of all I wouldn’t call you a trad if you are a EMHC. Secondly, I believe that EMHC should be outlawed unless there is a certain ratio of say 1000 or more people per priest in a parish. And I think only men should be EMHC.

Thirdly, I have tried to get involved. I tried to become the leader of my youth group because the leader was so liberal and spewing such heresies that I couldn’t stand it. I wasn’t allowed. I was too young(18). I left because every time I tried to introduce something good, they took and and turned it into something bad. Such as the time I said that we should not say as our grace before meals “Jesus is a Dude, Thank you Dude for our Food.” But instead say the traditional grace. So the leader say if anyone else has another one they would like to introduce that would be good. She doesn’t say that it was a mistake to say the dude grace, she doesn’t say that the traditional one is better.
Then the time that she put on a skit saying that it was better to be happy than to go to mass on Sunday. I corrected her and she said sorry, but did not bring it up to the group. I introduced the scapular. Instead of having a priest come and offer to enroll the other kids, she lit candles and said a mushy prayer and then had everyone put a scapular on.

I’m sorry, but I couldn’t stand there and watch it anymore. I couldn’t have everything that I tried to do turn into something bad.

Every Sunday, the music is protestant. My parents write letters with citations from authoritative documents, but the response is always rude and negative. We would get involved in the choir except none of us has a voice that you would want to hear, and we don’t know how to read or play music. But that doesn’t mean we don’t know good Catholic music.

The tabernacle is on the side in the Church. We can’t go into the Church and move it, so we write letters to the priest again citing the authoritative documents.

When a priest at our old parish refused to let my brother receive his first Holy Communion on the tongue (which is the preferred and ordinary way) and because the priest was using a crystal chalice which is forbidden, we wrote the bishop who said he would look into it. The bishop did nothing. A year latter that priest was publicly exposed for having stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars. And the principal of the school attached to that church, my father wrote a letter to the bishop about him. A year latter he was also exposed publicly in a scandal.

When we lived in Denver, we attended a mass near our house, on Easter Sunday. The priest wore bunny ears and hopped around the entire mass. We left attended another mass over half an hour away from our house and the archbishop received a letter. The bishop of Denver is awesome and he did something immediately. Another Sunday at a different parish, a missionary priest came and gave a sermon about the gospel which was about the miracle of the loaves and fishes. He said that there was no miracle, everyone who was there was just inspired by Christ sharing, so they took out the food in their pockets and shared too.
My father corrected him after mass, and wrote to the bishop and pastor.

Don’t say we aren’t doing things. My parents have six kids and they both have to work. They do the most that they possibly can. And I know that it is the same for many, many other trad families. I am happy that you are involved, but don’t hold yourself up saying that you are better than anyone. We are all out there trying, we each have different circumstances that we have to juggle, don’t point fingers.

Have a wonderful summer.

By the way. I am going to Wyoming Catholic College, so that when I am finished, I will have a degree to back up my words when I face off with choir directors, EMHC, priests, bishops and whoever else is disrespecting Our Lord and The Church! I am happy to do this and am so excited, but it is a great financial burden on my family and it will take four years of my life. Just remember that many people are trying, and most trads are trying the hardest. So don’t put us down, the liberals are already doing a good job of that.

Good for you! God Bless you in your studies!!

 

[LJN21]

So? The Church has the authority and not them. Once anyone begins to believe they know better than the Church, all bets are off…

Don’t put words in my mouth. I did not say that. I simply said how they feel about the changes, not that they think believe better than the Church.

The fact is none of that stuff existed in its present state before the new Mass. A large majority of it started as questionable practice at best and was then later given permission.

I actually think I have received some great feedback. Someone mentioned that few really knew what was going on before the Internet (and EWTN) really took off. I agree with that. Others said they did what they were told – period, and suffered in silence. That sounds quite honest too. I would also suggest in that many ways that period was even more septic in some ways than today. It was not an opportune time to introduce change…

Just wondering, where we’re you in during that time? Some dioceses were much worse than others.

Personally, I’m came in right on this side of it and missed, thankfully, some of the worst bits. That said I’ve been to illicit rogue Latin Masses (not much you can do when your still young and your parents take you) and highly questionable NO masses.

 

[JuanCarlos]

I always get a chuckle out of that mantra – I hear it a lot. It’s just not true.

I would rather have my kids attend a TOP-RATED school like Stanford, Cal, Notre Dame or Harvard for academics because I know they have the spiritual and religious formation not to be led astray (which can happen just about anywhere) and because they would most certainly have a strong and orthodox worship and formation support system – perhaps outside of school.

As I have said to you before, others may feel differently.

 

[saint_rafael]

I always get a chuckle out of that mantra – I hear it a lot. It’s just not true.

I would rather have my kids attend a TOP-RATED school like Stanford, Cal, Notre Dame or Harvard for academics because I know they have the spiritual and religious formation not to be led astray (which can happen just about anywhere) and because they would most certainly have a strong and orthodox worship and formation support system – perhaps outside of school if necessary.

All the schools you mentioned are secular except for Notre Dame, which is alleged to be Catholic, but is only in name.

Notre Dame is home to Richard Mcbrien the heretical and apostate priest who teaches his own Modernist heretical brand of Catholicism.

Notre Dame has every liberal, modernist abomination. They got contraception, homosexual groups, pro-abortion groups, and the famous fight about the Vagina Monologues.

The student population is sexually active, have binge parties, drug addiction, alcoholism, and every perversion. Thye vast majority have no Catholic faith.

 

[cothrige]

What’s broken on the inside of you that makes you suggest I don’t? More red herring?

Calm down now. No need to be so defensive.

But, the real question given the above is what’s broken on the inside of you that makes you suggest that traditionalists don’t get hands-on with the liturgy?

Calm down. There is no need to be so defensive. Simply put “Traditionalists” have been routinely outflanked/outworked by others. How come?

Oh, of course they have. And so you go to church and pray “O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this -]publican/-] traditionalist.”

And, of course, I can see just why there would be no need for them or anyone else to be defensive.

I see so at least in your case it is a matter of apathy because you don’t want to (as you see it) get your hands dirty. I sorta figured that was the case with some.

Yeah, you figure all sorts of stuff. I can tell. Unfortunately, I am not a traditionalist, I just happen to appreciate their goals and sympathize with them for what they have suffered. Sitting up on a high horse where I can go to a Mass which fits my spiritual tastes at any of five or six different churches and at upwards of twenty different Masses over a weekend and then preaching at those who do without even one per month within a hundred miles because they aren’t more involved in supporting what I prefer just isn’t my style. But it is yours. I get it.

Perhaps if you spent more time listening to people about what they think and why it would be obvious to you why traditionalists aren’t lining up to volunteer to serve in your OF Masses. As it is you just continue to insist that you are a traditionalist, until of course you wish to suggest that they are indifferent pseudo-catholics, when of course you suddenly learn how to use traditional and traditionalist in the orthodox manner. All I can say is you just keep on with that, as you are clearly having massive success.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Poppycock. Read Ecclesia Dei.

APOSTOLIC LETTER
“ECCLESIA DEI”
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
GIVEN MOTU PROPRIO

5c) In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.

I’m not a member of the SSPX.

 

[Margarite]

I always get a chuckle out of that mantra – I hear it a lot. It’s just not true.

I would rather have my kids attend a TOP-RATED school like Stanford, Cal, Notre Dame or Harvard for academics because I know they have the spiritual and religious formation not to be led astray (which can happen just about anywhere) and because they would most certainly have a strong and orthodox worship and formation support system – perhaps outside of school if necessary.

“TOP-RATED” according to who? The world or God?

To me here, you are saying that you would prefer your kids to be worldly successful and risk their souls. I live in Las Vegas. Here, there is one “Catholic” high school. It is known for drugs, sex, and alcohol use. It is worse than the worst public school here in Sin City! Now, many of those kids go to schools like Stanford, Cal, Notre Dame, and Harvard. Those schools are more focused on sports and getting large grants than they are on making sure the students are good people.
Yes, I acknowledge that I won’t be able to get my architecture degree at WCC. So, I am going to go there, make sure that I know my faith and know for sure that I won’t lose it in another university and then I will go to Notre Dame, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Georgetown, etc… My sister has a 4.0 unweighted GPA, she scored exceptionally well on the SAT without any prep, she can easily get into Oxford, Harvard, Yale, etc… But she is going to put her soul above worldly things. She wants to be a biomedical engineer, but first she want to get an education so that she is sure that she serves God when she does that.

It she grew up and was a biomedical engineer, how would she be able to explain why she wouldn’t clone people? Is she just going to say “Cause I’m Catholic.” NO! She will KNOW why because she is going to WCC where she will learn to know and love her faith at a deeper level than she ever could at those big universities. After she learns how to live her life at WCC, she will go to learn a trade. But living according to God’s will is most important, living comfortable comes second.

Why don’t you just say, Interesting viewpoint, or I guess we will have to agree to disagree or I personally wouldn’t send my kids to one of those schools because I don’t think it necessary. Why do you laugh and scorn those of us who feel it necessary? Is that being Catholic?

I don’t see how you can claim to be a trad.:nope: