Why don't more "Traditionalists" get hands-on with the liturgy?

[palmas85]

Yeah?

So you are suggesting that Protestants and the Orthodox are also Catholic? They are certainly Christians…but Catholics?

No they are not Catholic. But you seldom if ever see Baptists proclaiming themselves to be Baptist Christians or Orthodox calling themselves Orthodox Christians. It is obvious if you are a Baptist you are a Christian. Likewise Orthodox etc.

However many protestants don’t consider Catholics to be Christians at all. So given that I was wondering why you felt the need to expand on what is obvious. If you are a Catholic you are a Christian and there is no need to take it any further. Unless of course you are trying to convince someone that even though you are a Catholic you are also a Christian.

As I said I’m just wondering on why the use of the terminology, thats all.

 

[MrS]

Why don’t more “Traditionalists” get more hands-on with regard to the Mass? Is doing so that repugnant to them?

.

Cuz trads have their hands full trying to cope with the spillers of the world.

 

[Margarite]

Cuz trads have their hands full trying to cope with the spillers of the world.

 

[ProVobis]

The sspx is a prime example of cutting and running.

I thought they wanted to stay put.

 

[Spiller]

Don’t put words in my mouth. I did not say that. I simply said how they feel about the changes, not that they think believe better than the Church.

The fact is none of that stuff existed in its present state before the new Mass. A large majority of it started as questionable practice at best and was then later given permission.

I just follow the Church. I do not follow self-professed “Traditional Catholics.”

Just wondering, where we’re you in during that time? Some dioceses were much worse than others.

Personally, I’m came in right on this side of it and missed, thankfully, some of the worst bits. That said I’ve been to illicit rogue Latin Masses (not much you can do when your still young and your parents take you) and highly questionable NO masses.

Some of the Masses became happy-clappy around here, but certainly not all.

 

[Spiller]

I’m not a member of the SSPX.

Thanks be to God.

 

[Spiller]

“TOP-RATED” according to who? The world or God?

To me here, you are saying that you would prefer your kids to be worldly successful and risk their souls. I live in Las Vegas. Here, there is one “Catholic” high school. It is known for drugs, sex, and alcohol use. It is worse than the worst public school here in Sin City! Now, many of those kids go to schools like Stanford, Cal, Notre Dame, and Harvard. Those schools are more focused on sports and getting large grants than they are on making sure the students are good people.
Yes, I acknowledge that I won’t be able to get my architecture degree at WCC. So, I am going to go there, make sure that I know my faith and know for sure that I won’t lose it in another university and then I will go to Notre Dame, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Georgetown, etc… My sister has a 4.0 unweighted GPA, she scored exceptionally well on the SAT without any prep, she can easily get into Oxford, Harvard, Yale, etc… But she is going to put her soul above worldly things. She wants to be a biomedical engineer, but first she want to get an education so that she is sure that she serves God when she does that.

It she grew up and was a biomedical engineer, how would she be able to explain why she wouldn’t clone people? Is she just going to say “Cause I’m Catholic.” NO! She will KNOW why because she is going to WCC where she will learn to know and love her faith at a deeper level than she ever could at those big universities. After she learns how to live her life at WCC, she will go to learn a trade. But living according to God’s will is most important, living comfortable comes second.

Why don’t you just say, Interesting viewpoint, or I guess we will have to agree to disagree or I personally wouldn’t send my kids to one of those schools because I don’t think it necessary. Why do you laugh and scorn those of us who feel it necessary? Is that being Catholic?

I don’t see how you can claim to be a trad.:nope:

I think it’s both hilarious and sad to hear that mantra that “Christendom, Ave Maria, Dallas, Franciscan, Thomas Aquinas and that Wyoming college” are the only “real” Catholic colleges left in the USA. According to whom? EWTN? EWTN makes a big deal about no advertising, YET those schools advertise with the network and no ones seems to talk about that.

It’s nothing more than poppycock. Worse it’s programmed/parroted poppycock.

I would MUCH rather send my kids to one of the truly great universities of the USA: Cal, Stanford, Cal Tech, Chicago, Michigan, Yale, Harvard, MIT, etc. etc. than any of the so-called “real Catholic colleges.” For that matter I would MUCH rather send them to Notre Dame, CUA, Fordham, Santa Clara, Loyola Marymount, Marquette, etc. etc. – all which are top-notch schools.

 

[LJN21]

Some of the Masses became happy-clappy around here, but certainly not all.

Your lucky

 

[Patrick60]

Years ago I lived in another state and I decided to get involved in the parish I was a member of. I did alot of things there, without going into a great amount of detail. One day I saw in the bulletin an appeal for Confirmation Class teachers. I had studied theology at a Catholic university about ten years prior(only finished my first semester junior year—that’s a story for another day), so I felt like it was something I could do. And I volunteered.

Everything was fine until the DRE gave me the textbook. It was the worst compilation of secular psychology and liberal theology I’d ever seen. I was horrified. The DRE was a SSND nun. So was the author of this book.

I won’t say anything other than that the book said very little about the sacraments, very little about the church, very little about confirmation itself. It talked alot about psychology, spoke of the church in sociological terms.

I actually taught two classes. I ignored the textbook and taught along strict “traditionalist” lines. The DRE called me to meet with her before the third class and demanded that I “follow the curriculum.” The curriculum, however was entirely secular with only hints and nods toward the church.

I’d never, ever in my life, ever been in a position of disagreement with church authority. Of course, I realize that there is a place for dissent about such things as ultraliberal fruitcake theology, but to this day I can’t say I know how to do it. I quietly resigned from the Confirmation program.

I could have tried to change things. I really want to be charitable, but that DRE was a veritable hornet’s nest. It was her way or the highway. Even if I’d gone over her head it would have been a horrid struggle and I wasn’t sure it was what the kids needed to see. What would have been worse, bad theology or a bad example? Aside from her removal from the parish(which wasn’t going to happen), my only recourse was to ignore her and teach “traditional” theology.

Well, I got “hands on,” but unfortunately, sometimes getting “hands-on” means a wrestling match, and some people are better at that than I am.

Sometimes I wonder if it wasn’t a false humility on my part to refuse to resist her. However, there is a resistance to “traditionalists” here and there and it’s not an easy thing to deal with. But to answer your question, it takes a special person to change things. Sometimes things are wrong because somebody implemented the wrong thing. And stubborn pride will resist any attempt to correct the implementation of the wrong thing. I believe that many “traditionalists” do try to get hands on, but there is always resistance to change.

I really don’t have an answer to this, but here’s my two cents.

 

[Spiller]

…Well, I got “hands on,” but unfortunately, sometimes getting “hands-on” means a wrestling match, and some people are better at that than I am.

Very true.

Some fights cannot be won, but most can if you are following God and if you are willing to sacrifice.

I have been in many struggles were I didn’t necessarily get my way (which is fine with me) but the struggles garnered enough attention for things to change. Had it been my calling, I would have taken-on that DRE if she was really as bad as she sounds.

Sometimes I wonder if it wasn’t a false humility on my part to refuse to resist her. However, there is a resistance to “traditionalists” here and there and it’s not an easy thing to deal with. But to answer your question, it takes a special person to change things. Sometimes things are wrong because somebody implemented the wrong thing. And stubborn pride will resist any attempt to correct the implementation of the wrong thing. I believe that many “traditionalists” do try to get hands on, but there is always resistance to change.

I really don’t have an answer to this, but here’s my two cents.

If there is a resistance to “traditionalists” then there just needs to be more of them… Maybe a lot more.

 

[Patrick60]

The first part of that textbook was all transactional analysis. That’s the “Parent-Child” stuff. No mention of the Holy Spirit. No mention of the Church, the saints. What is even more horrifying(to me, at least) is that somebody gave it an imprimatur. I suppose the book didn’t contradict church teaching, being that there was so little of it in the book.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I think it’s both hilarious and sad to hear that mantra that “Christendom, Ave Maria, Dallas, Franciscan, Thomas Aquinas and that Wyoming college” are the only “real” Catholic colleges left in the USA. According to whom? EWTN? EWTN makes a big deal about no advertising, YET those schools advertise with the network and no ones seems to talk about that.

It’s nothing more than poppycock. Worse it’s programmed/parroted poppycock.

I would MUCH rather send my kids to one of the truly great universities of the USA: Cal, Stanford, Cal Tech, Chicago, Michigan, Yale, Harvard, MIT, etc. etc. than any of the so-called “real Catholic colleges.” For that matter I would MUCH rather send them to Notre Dame, CUA, Fordham, Santa Clara, Loyola Marymount, Marquette, etc. etc. – all which are top-notch schools.

So schools like Christendom or TAC which are known for being sound, orthodox Catholic colleges aren’t “truly great” universities? Is it their teaching of sound Catholic doctrine that makes them sub-par? Is it Thomas Aquinas’ Great Books curriculum which makes them intellectually not up to snuff?

And by the way, I got my degree from Santa Clara University after four years. Considering that university “truly great”, if you look at it in terms of its practice and teaching of Catholicism, is a joke (at least it was when I was there).

So, I would just say the greatness of a university lies in its impartation of truth to students, not just in the fact that someone can get a business or engineering degree there.

 

[JuanCarlos]

So schools like Christendom or TAC which are known for being sound, orthodox Catholic colleges aren’t “truly great” universities? Is it their teaching of sound Catholic doctrine that makes them sub-par? Is it Thomas Aquinas’ Great Books curriculum which makes them intellectually not up to snuff?

And by the way, I got my degree from Santa Clara University after four years. Considering that university “truly great”, if you look at it in terms of its practice and teaching of Catholicism, is a joke (at least it was when I was there).

So, I would just say the greatness of a university lies in its impartation of truth to students, not just in the fact that someone can get a business or engineering degree there.

Indeed, I believe all faculty of Christendom and TAC must make an oath of loyalty to the magesterium when they begin teaching. This is contrast with Notre Dame, where only half the faculty is Catholic.

I am surprised for your outright dislike of these schools Spiller; they use the OF quite liberally, but also have the TLM for students who resonate more with that Mass- Wyoming even has a Divine Liturgy. And every priest I talk to highly recommends TAC, especially if you feel you have a religious vocation.

 

[Margarite]

Again I ask Spiller
What makes those colleges you like great? According to which standard are they great? Why do you consider them great?

You see, we are judging them on the Catholicity. There is not denying that they are great schools to learn a trade, but to learn about the Church and to learn how to live a good life, they are rather poor teachers.

Why do you have to try to degrade TAC, WCC, Christendom, Dallas, etc to make your schools seem better?

 

[Spiller]

Indeed, I believe all faculty of Christendom and TAC must make an oath of loyalty to the magesterium when they begin teaching. This is contrast with Notre Dame, where only half the faculty is Catholic.

I am surprised for your outright dislike of these schools Spiller; they use the OF quite liberally, but also have the TLM for students who resonate more with that Mass- Wyoming even has a Divine Liturgy. And every priest I talk to highly recommends TAC, especially if you feel you have a religious vocation.

I don’t…

I simply point out that the notion that they are the “only true Catholic colleges left” is nothing but bunkum. Who perpetuates that bunkum? EWTN and Latin Mass Magazine?

I also reject the notion that a student cannot only take a strongly formed foundation of faith to college, they can also maintain it – even if they do it outside of their school by joining a good local parish and finding their own spiritual director.

Further, they are simply not in the same league academically as the Cals, Stanfords, Harvards, Dukes, etc. of this world.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I don’t…

I simply point out that the notion that they are the “only true Catholic colleges left” is nothing but bunkum. Who perpetuates that bunkum? EWTN and Latin Mass Magazine?

I also reject the notion that a student cannot only take a strongly formed foundation of faith to college, they can also maintain it – even if they do it outside of their school by joining a good local parish and finding their own spiritual director.

Further, they are simply not in the same league academically as the Cals, Stanfords, Harvards, Dukes, etc. of this world.

Spiller, I think one of the points of going to a Catholic college is that you shouldn’t have to go outside the school in order to maintain your faith. The school itself should help foster it.

And how on earth do you know these schools are not in the same league academically as the Cals, Stanfords, etc.? Have you researched these Catholic schools? Yes, schools like Harvard are more famous.

Here is a description of the academic curriculum at St. Thomas Aquinas College:

The College’s program of Catholic liberal education is unique in American higher education.

Fundamental in the Catholic intellectual tradition is the conviction that learning means discovering and growing in the truth about reality. It is the truth that sets men free and nothing else. Since truth concerns both natural and supernatural matters, the College’s program has both natural and divine wisdom as its ultimate objectives.

There are no textbooks. The prescribed, four-year interdisciplinary course of studies is based on the original works of the best, most influential authors, poets, scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, and theologians of Western civilization. In every classroom, the primary teachers are the authors of the “Great Books” from Aristotle, Homer and Euclid to St. Thomas Aquinas, T. S. Eliot and Albert Einstein.

thomasaquinas.edu/about/index.htm

Are students at the schools you mentioned even getting as good an education as the students who spend their time with these great authors?

As I mentioned, I went to Santa Clara University and I only wish they offered a program like that because I would have gotten a more interesting, intellectually challenging, and memorable education.

 

[Margarite]

I don’t…

I simply point out that the notion that they are the “only true Catholic colleges left” is nothing but bunkum. Who perpetuates that bunkum? EWTN and Latin Mass Magazine?

I also reject the notion that a student cannot only take a strongly formed foundation of faith to college, they can also maintain it – even if they do it outside of their school by joining a good local parish and finding their own spiritual director.

Further, they are simply not in the same league academically as the Cals, Stanfords, Harvards, Dukes, etc. of this world.

I never watch EWTN, my family never watches EWTN (not because we don’t like it, we just never do) and we don’t get Latin Mass Magazine, yet we agree that TAC, WCC, Christendom, Dallas, etc… Are the few remaining Catholic colleges that really stay true to the word Catholic. So, if it wasn’t EWTN or Latin Mass Magazine, I wonder what evil something made me and my family agree with those to perpetuators of such false assumptions.

And may I point out that the last three words of your post above really speaks volumes “of this world” well, we are looking for colleges that are not only of this world, but that are also unafraid to teach about the next.

 

[bilop]

All the schools you mentioned are secular except for Notre Dame, which is alleged to be Catholic, but is only in name.

Notre Dame is home to Richard Mcbrien the heretical and apostate priest who teaches his own Modernist heretical brand of Catholicism.

Notre Dame has every liberal, modernist abomination. They got contraception, homosexual groups, pro-abortion groups, and the famous fight about the Vagina Monologues.

The student population is sexually active, have binge parties, drug addiction, alcoholism, and every perversion. Thye vast majority have no Catholic faith.

Actually, Notre Dame has been improving A LOT. McBrien is still there, but the vast majority (all but 2 or 3, IIRRC) of the theology department are orthodox, and have signed the mandatum.

There is also a very active Catholic community amung the students. Last fall they began offering the TLM every Sunday at the request of the students.

God Bless

 

[MrS]

I never watch EWTN, my family never watches EWTN (not because we don’t like it, we just never do) and we don’t get Latin Mass Magazine, yet we agree that TAC, WCC, Christendom, Dallas, etc… Are the few remaining Catholic colleges that really stay true to the word Catholic. So, if it wasn’t EWTN or Latin Mass Magazine, I wonder what evil something made me and my family agree with those to perpetuators of such false assumptions.

And may I point out that the last three words of your post above really speaks volumes “of this world” well, we are looking for colleges that are not only of this world, but that are also unafraid to teach about the next.

Trying to reason with Spiller, huh?

hehehehe

Well, it is rather difficult for non-traditionalists to recognize traditional methods of teaching, using traditional sources. That is not saying that those methods and sources are more Catholic, but that they are more proven and have stood the test of time.

In a similar vein, that is why a university like Ave Maria in Fla needs to re-evaluate its direction. Not only is it not a Catholic University (so says the local ordinary), but perhaps not even a university in the Catholic Tradition . oopps…there is that word again.

Regardless, TAC, Christendom etc all deserve our support to maintain what they are and have been… spiller can support what he wants to.

 

[Margarite]

Actually, Notre Dame has been improving A LOT. McBrien is still there, but the vast majority (all but 2 or 3, IIRRC) of the theology department are orthodox, and have signed the mandatum.

There is also a very active Catholic community amung the students. Last fall they began offering the TLM every Sunday at the request of the students.

God Bless

That is wonderful to hear! Maybe, if finances and God allow, I will go there to get my Architecture degree! That would be awesome!

But who knows the plans of God? Maybe I will be married or be a nun in a couple years? God has led my family around to so many places, and sometimes so unexpectedly, that I know better than to plan more than a year ahead. I mean my family didn’t know we would be leaving heavenly Colorado for hellish Las Vegas until 20 days before we had to be here. And we have stayed in the place we hate most the longest out of anywhere that we have lived. I mean we have lived here 5 YEARS! Most of the time we only live somewhere 3 years or less (and no, my dad is a lawyer and my mom a customer service rep no military connections!)) So, God moves in mysterious ways. We are just praying that we get out of here before my brothers get to high school. Otherwise they may have to go to the FSSP’s high school St. Gregory’s in Pen. and that would break my mom’s heart!