Why don't people sing?

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JMJ_coder said:
Hello,

If what many who love the decrepit music of today assert, that because of modern “liturgical music” (which is almost universally anything but) that people can follow what Vatican II called for - that is full and active participation of the people - why does almost nobody sing at Mass? Why don’t the people belt out with glee those favorites of the past 40 years - especially since their claimed to be so loved and easy to sing?
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My allergy gives me lots problem with breathing. I try to sing whenever I could.
 
The Mass has always been a time for praise, giving God glory, and thanksgiving, although the hymns were not like many of today’s talking about ourselves, or pretending we are God speaking. Reverent hymns to God have always had a place.

At the Lamb’s high feast we sing,
Praise to our victorious King,
Who has washed us in the tide
Flowing from His pierced side;
Praise we Him, whose love divine
Gives His Sacred Blood for wine,
Gives His Body for the feast,
Christ the Victim, Christ the Priest.
Where the Paschal Blood is poured,
Death’s dark angel sheathes his sword;
Israel’s hosts triumphant go
Through the wave that drowns the foe.
Christ, the Lamb whose Blood was shed,
Paschal Victim, Paschal Bread!
With sincerity and love
Eat we manna from above.
  • St. Ambrose (340-397)
    translated by Robert Campbell (1814-1868)
Sing, my tongue, the Savior’s glory,
Of His Flesh the mystery sing,
And the Blood, all price exceeding,
Shed by our immortal King,
Destined for the world’s redemption,
From a noble womb to spring.
On the night of that last supper
Seated with His chosen band,
He, the paschal victim eating,
First fulfills the law’s command;
Then as food to His Apostles
Gives Himself with His own hand.
Word made Flesh, the bread of nature
By His word to Flesh He turns;
Wine into His Blood He changes:
What though sense no change discerns?
Only be the heart in earnest,
Faith her lesson quickly learns.
To the everlasting Father,
And the Son who reigns on high
With the Holy Ghost proceeding
Forth from each eternally,
Be salvation, honor, blessing,
Might and endless majesty.

Special theme for glad thanksgiving
Is the quickening and living
Bread today before you set:
From His hands of old partaken,
As we know, by faith unshaken,
Where the Twelve at supper met.
Here the New Law’s new oblation,
By the new King’s revelation,
Ends the form of ancient rite:
Now the new the old effaces,
Truth away the shadow chases,
Light dispels the gloom of night.
What He did at supper seated,
Christ mandated be repeated,
His memorial never to cease:
And His rule for guidance taking,
Bread and wine we hallow, making
Thus our Sacrifice of peace.
  • From hymns by
    St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)
Romans 15
9.; as it is written, “THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES,
AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME.”
 
Cathryn said:
The Mass has always been a time for praise, giving God glory, and thanksgiving, although the hymns were not like many of today’s talking about ourselves, or pretending we are God speaking. Reverent hymns to God have always had a place.

At the Lamb’s high feast we sing,
Praise to our victorious King,
Who has washed us in the tide
Flowing from His pierced side;
Praise we Him, whose love divine
Gives His Sacred Blood for wine,
Gives His Body for the feast,
Christ the Victim, Christ the Priest.
Where the Paschal Blood is poured,
Death’s dark angel sheathes his sword;
Israel’s hosts triumphant go
Through the wave that drowns the foe.
Christ, the Lamb whose Blood was shed,
Paschal Victim, Paschal Bread!
With sincerity and love
Eat we manna from above.
  • St. Ambrose (340-397)
    translated by Robert Campbell (1814-1868)
Sing, my tongue, the Savior’s glory,
Of His Flesh the mystery sing,
And the Blood, all price exceeding,
Shed by our immortal King,
Destined for the world’s redemption,
From a noble womb to spring.
On the night of that last supper
Seated with His chosen band,
He, the paschal victim eating,
First fulfills the law’s command;
Then as food to His Apostles
Gives Himself with His own hand.
Word made Flesh, the bread of nature
By His word to Flesh He turns;
Wine into His Blood He changes:
What though sense no change discerns?
Only be the heart in earnest,
Faith her lesson quickly learns.
To the everlasting Father,
And the Son who reigns on high
With the Holy Ghost proceeding
Forth from each eternally,
Be salvation, honor, blessing,
Might and endless majesty.

Special theme for glad thanksgiving
Is the quickening and living
Bread today before you set:
From His hands of old partaken,
As we know, by faith unshaken,
Where the Twelve at supper met.
Here the New Law’s new oblation,
By the new King’s revelation,
Ends the form of ancient rite:
Now the new the old effaces,
Truth away the shadow chases,
Light dispels the gloom of night.
What He did at supper seated,
Christ mandated be repeated,
His memorial never to cease:
And His rule for guidance taking,
Bread and wine we hallow, making
Thus our Sacrifice of peace.
  • From hymns by
    St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)
Romans 15
9.; as it is written, “THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES,
AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME.”
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Excellent, I don’t remember any of those being sung at Calvary.
 
snowfly said:
Were they at Mass ?
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Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper in Matt 26:26-29, and immediately afterward they sing a hymn (vs. 30).

And regarding the passages from Revelation 5, the song were being sung in the context of the worship of the Lamb (Christ), and Mass is also worship.
 
snowfly said:
Excellent, I don’t remember any of those being sung at Calvary.
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There are appropriate places during the Mass for singing reverent hymns since not every moment of Mass is the unbloody representation of Calvary.
 
The First Mass
1- St. Matthew 26:26-32:
26- While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27- Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you,
28- for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
29- I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.”
30- Then, after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
 
And there are biblical examples (not from the crucifixion, though) when dirges or laments are sung on sad occasions.

E.g. 2 Samuel 1:17 and following verses, David chants and sings an elegy for Saul and Jonathan

2 Chronicles 35:25, Jeremiah composed a lamentation for Josiah which was recited by singers.

And Matthew 9:23 tells of Jesus arriving at the home of a deceased girl and finding flute players there, presumably playing dirges.

St. Paul, in COl. 3:16, exhorts Christians as follows:

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as in all wisdom you teach and admonish one another, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.”

As you know, Eucharist means thanksgiving. IMHO, it seems very reasonable to show gratitude to God via song during the mass.
 
EHRAM said:
And there are biblical examples (not from the crucifixion, though) when dirges or laments are sung on sad occasions.
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Ok point taken, but from some of the non-catholic services I’ve attended, I thank God I can’t sing.

During the Consecration there is no singing, apart from the Angels, but who can hear.
 
Anyway, you can sing in a Catholic Church if you want too, when the Choir starts or the singing group, you can join in, so if your a convert and you want to sing, then sing until your hearts content.
 
People don’t sing for one of two reasons: (1) they have trouble following the song (I have difficulty sometimes with the responsorial because they never give me the music) or (2) they are apathetic and lazy. Sadly, I think the latter is more common. One thing that frustrates me with Catholic music is the lack of variety. I have been to parishes where all they sing are some of the most corny songs from the '70’s and others where all they sing are Holy God we Praise Thy Name and O Sacrament Most Holy over and over again. What’s wrong with a little variety? We are CATHOLIC after all. I also don’t like to hear people bemoan the “heretical” post-Vatican II hymns. These songs are usually based entirely on Scripture. It doesn’t really bother me that some of the songs refers to God in the first person. Any intelligent person knows that the “I” is God. Amazing Grace is more heretical than Be Not Afraid. Why are these songs more heretical than the numerous 16th, 17th, and 18th century traditional Protestant songs in the missalette written by Martin Luther, for example. Is “A Mighty Fortress is our God” more Catholic than On Eagles Wings? That said, I love traditional Catholic hymns. There is nothing like Immaculate Mary, Tantum Ergo, O Sanctissima, etc. I fid it heartbraking that so many parishes threw these songs (along with numerous other elements of our faith) in the trashcan in the 1960’s. For a relatively young Catholic, like myself, born well after Vatican II, the songs so hated by conservatives like Weigle were the only Catholic songs we group up with. I never heard Tantum Ergo or Panis Angelicum until I was 25. I think it is of the ultimate importance to treasure our heritage, from Gregorian Chant to even those hated St. Louis Jesuits.
 
JMJ_coder said:
Hello,

If what many who love the decrepit music of today assert, that because of modern “liturgical music” (which is almost universally anything but) that people can follow what Vatican II called for - that is full and active participation of the people - why does almost nobody sing at Mass? Why don’t the people belt out with glee those favorites of the past 40 years - especially since their claimed to be so loved and easy to sing?
Click to expand...
Why don’t I sing at the local parish I sometimes attend?

I am a man.

The “cantor” is an alto-soprano singing in all here glory with a few other women singing along. The men of the parish are divided into two camps:

  1. *]Those with the good sense to not even try
    *]Those with the piety try - who end up looking flush as though they are about to pass out halfway through.

    Never mind how utterly vapid and generic most of the fare offered can be.
 
MichCatholic9 said:
People don’t sing for one of two reasons: (1) they have trouble following the song (I have difficulty sometimes with the responsorial because they never give me the music) or (2) they are apathetic and lazy. Sadly, I think the latter is more common. One thing that frustrates me with Catholic music is the lack of variety. For a relatively young Catholic, like myself, born well after Vatican II, the songs so hated by conservatives like Weigle were the only Catholic songs we group up with. I never heard Tantum Ergo or Panis Angelicum until I was 25. I think it is of the ultimate importance to treasure our heritage, from Gregorian Chant to even those hated St. Louis Jesuits.
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Unfortunately, I grew up with the same tripe as you, including the St. Louis Jesuits. These hymns are not part of our 2,000+ years of Sacred Music, not by a long shot. It is a sad statement that the only songs that most people in this day and age will ever hear is the junk that came out of the Glory and Praise era.

It wasn’t until I got to the University of Texas and fell in with a Paulist parish that I discovered that there was a wealth of music. The Catholic school I graduated from (8th grade) was heavily saturated with Glory and Praise, although, they did throw in a couple of Traditional hymns, now and then. I think that if Don Bosco had heard the kind of stuff they are teaching the kids now, he would be spinning in his glass-covered sarcophagus in angst.

When I started attending and participating in my Paulist parish, I learned about hymns such as Creator of the Stars of Night, Attende Domine, At the Lamb’s High Feast We Sing, At the Name of Jesus, Songs of Thankfulness and Praise, The King Shall Come When Morning Dawns, and All Glory, Laud and Honor. Inasmuch as I disagreed with quite a bit of the Paulists’ liberal undertones on things, musically, I was very well prepared when I returned to my home diocese and assisted the first rector of our Cathedral with planning liturgies.

We got rid of a lot of the OCP English material. Unfortunately, because OCP holds a monopoly on Spanish music, we were stuck with Flor y Canto. The children’s choir stopped the hootenany music they were singing (picking and grinning stuff) and learned O Come, O Come Emmanuel, Lift Up Ye Heads, O Mighty Gates, Attende Domine, I Received the Living God, O Sun of Justice and even the plainsong Latin chant for the parts of the Mass.

Unfortunately, with a change in cathedral administration, the whole music program went south. The new administrator brought in mariachis and the cathedral’s musical selections plummetted faster than the Titanic.

One of the posters in another thread chided me because I said that the National Pastoral Musicians Association and the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions hijacked the new document on music that the USCCB was supposed to have sent to Rome for recognitio.

I have sat on a few FDLC meetings. Let me tell you, as someone who has 12 years experience in the Texas Legislature, Democrats and Republicans had an easier time working together than the various factions in this group. The differences between Traditionalists and liberals were very discernable. It seems as though everyone gave Cardinal Arinze lip service after his address to the group, but, as soon as he left the conference, it was all about creativity and pizzazz. Whatever Cardinal Arinze had said was like Elvis, it left the building.

I sat in on one of the OCP sessions and left after five minutes. It was more about showmanship than praying. About the only things that were profitable from the whole conference were the seminars on the GIRM, the proposed bilingual lectionary and some of the more practical points on music.

That is why, when I say something to the effect that the FDLC hooked up with the NPMA to hijack the document, I can say it with some authority because I’ve witnessed their stuff, first hand. I’ve sat at table with these folks and have engaged in debates with them, even when some were wondering what was up with Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger writing books and papers about liturgy when he was just a theologian. Not knowing, back in 2003, what was going to happen two years later, I told my table to just wait and see.

Well, he may be just a theologian, but, as Pope Benedict XVI, he is now our Church’s chief liturgist. If what he said back then chafed the FDLC, imagine that they are now wringing their hands and gnashing their collective teeth over Sacramentum Caritatis.
 
Since I lead singing as a Baptist long before I was Catholic, I can tell you what I do to encourage singing.

I never sing anything above a C unless it is like a quick pick up note or something. I will bottom a hymn out into the bass clef before I will let it be sung too high. For soprano types, if we even have any, I take it as a form of revenge for all the soprano cantors that leave the men behind. That, and I am a chauvenist pig.

Second, I limit new music to only two or three a year. Most people like to sing songs they know. While I know that some love to learn something new every now and then, I use new stuff sparingly.

Finally, I watch people as they sing. I try to notice which songs people like to sing and reuse them. I like to have at least one old favorite every Mass.
 
snowfly said:
Did they sing at Calvary when Our Savours Blood drained from His Body ?

Did they sing when they rested Him in a tomb ?

I invite all those singers to tell me when they sang at the Crucifixion.
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What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? None of these are situations were during Mass. The Mass is not Calvary. That sacrifice was once and for all. Ask any Protestant. The Mass, the liturgy of the Eucharist part anyway, is the re-presentation of that sacrifice. There is a huge diference, which is why the Catholic Church sings at this time.

I am reminded of the words of the Exultet. “O happy fault. O necessary sin of Adam.” There is an ironic dichotomy that the sorrow of Calvary is also a cause for joy.
 
I have thought about this a lot… I came from a Protestant church with AMAZING music to a parish with… well, lacking music. It’s good, really, and at Christmas great. But it won’t be First Baptist, that’s for sure.

I observed a couple different things. A lot of people here assume that this means we need to get back to the traditional Gregorian chant, and while the SSPX proves that reverent, beautiful, and traditional music definitely affects the wellness, so to speak, of a Liturgy, I don’t think this is the only thing.

I once got to go with my youth group to a Lifeteen Mass at a large church called Holy Family. The music was done on guitars, by a guy and a girl (fairly young) harmonizing. There was rhythm and talent there, and I saw my friends in the youthgroup taking the Mass a lot more seriously because of that. When we left and were discussing it, the music was the first thing to be brought up. Everyone, without exception, was impressed. It was on par with, if not better than, my old church!

I had a friend from First Baptist who had been trying to put the Psalms to music, and couldn’t get it right. I thought of the elderly woman at my parish singing to a nonexistent rhymth in a semi-opraic voice (and I say “semi” because she was not succeeding), and then thought of the Lifeteen Mass. I was tempted to tell him to go to Holy Family one Sunday just to get an idea of how to do it.

While traditional music inspires reverence, contemporary DONE right, led by talented vocalists/instrumentalists, will do just as much. It proves how much God can use our gifts to prosper his Church.

(Ha, ha! I’m reminded of the Dec. 23 Mass…when a really catchy song was played and as people were beginning to leave, I heard it: at least two Catholics, clapping offbeat. I was so amazed, and proud, that I just wanted to cry. It was the roudiest I’ve ever seen Catholics get. lol)

Just some thoughts. I think the Magisterium should make parish choirs mandatory. Ha, ha! Now there’s progress! But seriously, people, young or old, using their talents to serve God in the Liturgy is, I think, what we need more of.
 
The_Truthinator said:
I have thought about this a lot… I came from a Protestant church with AMAZING music to a parish with… well, lacking music.
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I did the same thing, which is how I chose the parish I attend. I have often commented on musically poor my parish was. I am surely not the best trained person, but I was willing to step up and step in. If God will lead someone better, I will step out.
 
Hello,
ASimpleSinner said:
Why don’t I sing at the local parish I sometimes attend?

I am a man.

The “cantor” is an alto-soprano singing in all here glory with a few other women singing along. The men of the parish are divided into two camps:

  1. *]Those with the good sense to not even try
    *]Those with the piety try - who end up looking flush as though they are about to pass out halfway through.

    Never mind how utterly vapid and generic most of the fare offered can be.
Click to expand...

  1. I think the trick (and what many may not do) is that you must sing the same notes (assuming a simple melody with no harmonic parts), but at a lower octave. I think that most people who complain about songs being to high, try and sing at the same level as the soprano or start off on the first note that may be low with a medium to high voice (for their range) and not realize that the song is going to go up an octave worth of notes and that they should have started off lower in their range to sing the song properly (the chant “Flos Carmeli” is an excellent example of this).

    These problems are not unavoidable, nor are they only the concerns of those in the choir. I think a big problem is the lack of even basic music education for the past few decades so that many are aware of these things.

    O well, I’ve babbled enough for one post.
 
Perhaps people don’t sing because they have come to understand that there are very few songs in the “Music Issue” that are appropriate for Mass. Lyrics in the voice of God or Jesus, for example, or songs that celebrate and praise the congregation - the people - are beautiful, but not for Mass!
 
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