Why don't people sing?

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

They marketed themselves in a way that they are almost a monopoly. There are other sources available, but the others are small most music directors probably do not know about them. It’s almost like Microsoft in the computer business. You can get something other than Windows, Office, etc., but Microsoft is the big time player that has squashed almost all competition.

I was thinking of the exact same analogy. And like Microsoft, they both produce and sell garbage.

 

[Chris-WA]

Hello,

If what many who love the decrepit music of today assert, that because of modern “liturgical music” (which is almost universally anything but) that people can follow what Vatican II called for - that is full and active participation of the people - why does almost nobody sing at Mass? Why don’t the people belt out with glee those favorites of the past 40 years - especially since their claimed to be so loved and easy to sing?

The bottom line answer is very simple, but no one is going to want to hear it. Yes, the music is often dull, or even outright inappropriate for mass, or whatever, but if you have committed people even they will sing the dull songs. The bottom line is that people don’t sing because our pews are filled with luke-warm, half-hearted, cafeteria Catholics who are only there to check off a box in fulfilling there weekly obligation to attend mass. That’s the bottom line, and as harsh as that sounds, it’s the truth. How did we get here? I don’t know for sure, but the lack of good catechesis over the last few decades has got to be one of the major reasons. I think if we could fix that, most of the other problems like lack of vocations, liturgical abuses, weak monetary contributions, etc., would fix themselves. Before you can live the faith, you have to know the faith, and we’re skipping step # 1.

 

[Sarabande]

Has your friend started singing? Seriously, I think I will borrow that book from the library. It sounds good.

Ha!Ha!Ha! Yes, my friend is my aunt (we’re very close, so I do consider her my friend ) and actually does sing during mass now. She doesn’t read music, nor ever took music lessons in school, but has a good ear so can pick up the melodies well.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I don’t think saying people can’t read music isn’t a viable explanation. You don’t have to be a music theorist to sing at Mass. Almost everyone, if given the starting pitch, can follow notes up and down the staff lines and know that if the note goes up, the pitch goes up and vice versa.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

People can’t learn music by ear. The shear magnitude of people ho-humming the latest commercial jingles or the hottest new pop single are a testament to their abilities. They learn them to perfection, words and all - and all by ear.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Gregorian Chant is very, very, very easy to learn by ear. After hearing it about a half dozen times, the melody becomes learned. The text can also be easily learned. Same with polyphony and traditional hymnody.

 

[Sarabande]

… I know this sounds absurd; but the majority of people don’t feel confident singing out if they think themselves and others will hear their singing. I believe that most people actually do long to sing but fear they will be embarrassed if they do, and unfortunately this overrides the fact that they should be singing to praise God.

However…The difference when the cathedral is full is amazing - everyone sings. People are bursting to sing out to praise God, and (paradoxically) in the packed atmosphere no one feels exposed.

You make a very good point. It’s that safety in numbers thing. I’m “guilty” of that too. When I’m at mass with small attendence, I am more “shy” about singing out, even though I’m an opera singer!!! It’s because I’m not leading and am in the congregation. I don’t want to bring attention to myself.

A few posters have criticised the organists on this topic. While the hymns should be at the forefront rather than the organ, contrary to what some have said, the organ IS there to lead the congregation…

I have also noticed where I cantored that when the organist is confident and solid in technique, the congregation will sing out. When the congregation feels like they won’t be heard over the organ or other people, they will sing out.

I also think the Church (clerical & laypersons) have not valued church music as much as they should. We tend to have a very relaxed attitude to it… If we don’t value the hymnody as an art form, as a form of prayer, it is no wonder people don’t sing…

Very true… We had a former pastor and resident priests who were very particular about how long the hymns should be played. So many times, they wanted the organist to cut the music off right away. Now, it’s completely different. We usually sing all the verses.

It is possible too that some cantors are to blame. For example, some cantors act as if they’re on Broadway or the West End - it is a big performance and this is not what cantoring is about. It does not encourage congregational singing.

Oh, boy, don’t I know it. Some of them I know personally and many times I’ve noticed that those who do treat the whole thing as a performance are the ones who are wannabe professional performers - meaning those who never got any further than being the star of their high school musicals, but really wanted to make it big and never did any more of it. As my husband has said, they have a “captive audience” and they take advantage of it. They’re the ones who smile at the congregation and “act”.

Sometimes if the cantor has such a sweet voice, people don’t want to join in lest they spoil the cantor’s beautiful singing - this is true… So cantors need to be leaders, but not performers, I think.

This is true sometimes. It’s important for a cantor to stay far from the microphone, especially when you have a good, trained voice, and to be as humble about it as possible. Since I’m trained operatically, I do not sing with a full, operatic voice because it can be big. I stay away from the mic and will appear in front of the congregation with as little eye contact as possible and hold my music. A “certified cantor” once told me that I should be engaging the congregation, by smiling at them, making eye contact, acting as an air-traffic controller, etc. I disagree. I should help with leading them in the hymns, but I do not believe I should be engaging and bringing attention to myself.

I actually believe that it would be better if the cantor is in the choir loft with the organist. We do both where I cantor - up in the sanctuary on Sundays, but in the loft for weddings and funerals. The congregation will still sing even if the cantor is the back. I know that can be hard to believe, but even in my little country parish that I attended throughout my childhood on vacations, they had someone lead from the back and the congregation sang with full voice.

Then there is the problems with cantors who can’t sing or have such a horrible timbre to the voice that no one wants to sing. I’ve had friends and family and even congregants tell me that they can’t sing when certain cantors are singing because they are so bad.

 

[Sarabande]

Gregorian Chant is very, very, very easy to learn by ear. After hearing it about a half dozen times, the melody becomes learned. The text can also be easily learned. Same with polyphony and traditional hymnody.

I agree. Our congregation who attend mass regularly, can chant. My former music students (little kids) could chant. If you have a properly trained music director who is enthusiastic about teaching polyphony and hymnody, you can teach average people who know nothing about music, their parts.

That said, I believe it is important to bring back teaching music especially in the Catholic schools so that our next generations will be well-trained to sing and play their instruments. If they continue to hire mediocre people to teach or lead, how will they expect congregations or our children to really learn how to sing or play for mass?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

That said, I believe it is important to bring back teaching music especially in the Catholic schools so that our next generations will be well-trained to sing and play their instruments.

I agree, and I also think it is important for them to bring back the classical form of education that was cast aside about 100 years ago. But that’s fodder for another thread.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I also think the Church (clerical & laypersons) have not valued church music as much as they should. We tend to have a very relaxed attitude to it - for example, since the entrance hymn covers the procession to the altar, we often don’t sing all the verses - normally it’s two or three (depending if there’s incence!), the choir’s jaws hit the floor if one suggests they should sing three rather than the usual two verses at the recessional. We are not using the hymns for their purpose- it’s not about the words, expressions, but rather how many verses can we fit in at the offertory before the priest goes to the ‘pray brethren…’. If we don’t value the hymnody as an art form, as a form of prayer, it is no wonder people don’t sing…

Amen! :clapping:

 

[Cat]

Listening to popular music, especially rock or country, can have a very bad influence on the musical ear. These musical styles include a lot of lurring of the notes, bending the pitches, and sliding up to the pitch. Also, these styles are often sung through the nose (especially country). It sounds OK when a studio is used to enhance the music, but it sounds terrible when people try to use rock or country techniques to sing either traditional or contemporary hymns.

I accompany a lot of children’s choirs, and it’s obvious which kids listen to rock. They can’t find or hold pitches.

I think this is another reason why Catholics can’t or don’t sing. I think a lot of them keep a constant background of rock or country music going in their lives, and it has really hurt their ability to hit the right notes.

I’m not saying that people should avoid these musical styles entirely. I love country music. But I think people have to be careful to take care of their ears and perhaps balance out the popular music with other styles of music.

 

[DJgang]

The only time that I don’t sing is when the organ player is so slowwwwwwww…

Sometimes it’s like I’m stumbling over the words and I just give up!

The closer you sit up front, the more people sing.

 

[Cat]

BTW, I just want to say that I think that all of the reasons listed so far are valid reasons why Catholics don’t sing. I don’t think anyone can say that one reason is more valid than another reason.

I especially disagree that certain styles of music are the main reason. I think that the LifeTeen music is not meant for congregational singing and is especially difficult to sing, but it CAN be done–young people prove it. It’s just more difficult and challenging to sing rock in a group setting than it is to sing four-part hymody, which is basically just simple chord progressions.

I play in several parishes, and the traditional hymns are not sung with any more fervor than the contemporary hymns. I’ve seen Catholics limp their way through Holy God We Praise Thy Name, and I’ve seen Catholics stand without opening their mouths through the chanted hymns. I don’t think we can generalize that it’s the music, baby.

Someone mentioned the role of the priest. I agree with this. I visited a parish in Michigan where the priest entered the sanctuary during the Processional hymn carrying the hymnal, and stood at the front of the sanctuary singing heartily for all the verses of the hymn before mounting the podium. He sang all the verses of the other hymns, and at the end of Mass, stood at the front singing heartily through ALL the verses of the Closing Hymn. He had a great voice, and the congregation joined in and sang with gusto! So Catholics can and do sing if they are led well.

I also disagree somewhat that lukewarm Catholics don’t sing. Someone mentioned that a lot of very devout Catholics don’t sing because they are participating silently in the Mass. I know a lot of very devout Catholics who simply don’t sing. Maybe a lot of the reasons we’ve listed in this thread are their reasons for not opening their mouths and joining in.

 

[Sarabande]

I accompany a lot of children’s choirs, and it’s obvious which kids listen to rock. They can’t find or hold pitches.

So true… even more so when the majority of your students listens to mostly rap. It’s a lot of work trying to re-teach them how to sing a single pitch. Most rap music consist of only speaking rhythms - very little or no singing melodies. The Pre-K to 4th graders could hold their pitches and sing by ear much easier than the older ones. It gets worse when they are in 7th and 8th grade. I had made a classroom exercise for those students one time so that I could find out what they listened to - almost all rap. It made me understand why they had the toughest time singing the simplest Christmas hymns.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Will someone please hand these good people above a copy of Thomas Day’s “Why Catholics Can’t Sing”?

This book will explain it completely and clearly to you.

YES!!!

I didn’t read this whole thread yet, but wasn’t there another thread some months ago unless it got wiped out in the Great Meltdown] in which we discussed this?

Anyway, “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” is an excellent book.

 

[Cavicchiolo]

My main reason for not singing is that the organ is played so loud that I can’t hear other people singing nor hear my own voice. My solution is I go to a Mass where the Priest and congregation sing without the accompanyment of an organ.Fortunately we have 2 Masses with and 2 Masses without the organ.

 

[LilyM]

When you say “too high,” what exactly are you saying?

I consider the range from A-B-middle C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D a do-able range for almost anyone if they sing in a head voice. The E above that D is a little more difficult, but if it doesn’t have to be sustained, I think it’s doable.

You just have to sing correctly and not try to blast it through the throat or out the nose.

What range do YOU consider “comfortable?” I hate to say it, people, but most good songs are going to have more notes than A-B-middle C-D-E-F! Be realistic!

As for the coloratura range–this is much much MUCH higher than the range that I posted above! Don’t exaggerate.

The other option, of course, is for a person who can’t sing melody to harmonize, either by ear or through reading a part. Is there a reason why you don’t do this on some of the songs that you consider “too high?”

I’ll be honest–I think many of the songs are in the perfect range, but most of the congregation just doesn’t know how to sing and wouldn’t be interested in learning even if a free class was offered.

Am I judging you too harshly? Would you be interested in a “singing for adults class” if one was offered? OUR city offers one, taught by a wonderful musician, and adults are learning how to sing correctly and how to read music.

So the entire congregation now has to be trained in singing in order to cope with modern hymns? Why? Were congregations pre-Vatican II trained in ‘using the head voice’ and so on?

How is it that it is now so utterly impossible to write music that the untrained can sing with a decent effort, when pre-Vatican 2 it seems to have been perfectly possible?

Take my voice for starters - please! I’m what you’d call an alto’s alto, probably good for jazz but not much else. Something like ‘Holy God we praise your name’ would be perfectly do-able for me - IF it were only a few notes lower than played in your average parish. You think musical directors EVER consider pitching the songs just those few notes lower? :nope:

So my only options are donkey-like high notes or an even more disturbing attempt to sing half of the thing an octave lower.

 

[tcraig]

So the entire congregation now has to be trained in singing in order to cope with modern hymns? Why? Were congregations pre-Vatican II trained in ‘using the head voice’ and so on?

How is it that it is now so utterly impossible to write music that the untrained can sing with a decent effort, when pre-Vatican 2 it seems to have been perfectly possible?

Yes, I find this a little amusing also. I’m a former Methodist, and Methodists are known for their singing. Not surprising, given that Charles Wesley (younger brother of John Wesley) wrote a huge number of hymns - including Hark! The Herald Angels Sing.

We had a hymnal at our church, the United Methodist Hymnal. It was absolutely chock-full of beautiful singable hymns (this site will give you an idea of what it contained), most of them old and revered. (When they tried to remove Onward Christian Soldiers from the hymnal, there was an outcry! It’s still there, LOL).

No one had to be “trained” to sing these hymns. How many people need to be trained to sing along to Hark! The Herald Angels Sing?? Catholics seem to catch on to Immaculate Mary pretty well, also. And at my TLM parish, no one had problems with the Salve Regina, either (sung all in Latin).

 

[Cat]

So the entire congregation now has to be trained in singing in order to cope with modern hymns? Why? Were congregations pre-Vatican II trained in ‘using the head voice’ and so on?

How is it that it is now so utterly impossible to write music that the untrained can sing with a decent effort, when pre-Vatican 2 it seems to have been perfectly possible?

Take my voice for starters - please! I’m what you’d call an alto’s alto, probably good for jazz but not much else. Something like ‘Holy God we praise your name’ would be perfectly do-able for me - IF it were only a few notes lower than played in your average parish. You think musical directors EVER consider pitching the songs just those few notes lower? :nope:

So my only options are donkey-like high notes or an even more disturbing attempt to sing half of the thing an octave lower.

Let’s look at a few examples from the Heritage Missal 2007, OCP

Holy God, We Praise Thy Name–range: E above Middle C, F, G, A, B, C, D.

versus

Gather Us In–range: D above Middle C, E, F, G, A, B, C

The range for the contemporary hymn is lower and smaller than the range for the traditional hymn.

Another example:

Faith of Our Fathers–range: D above Middle C, E, F, G, A, B, C

On Eagle’s Wings–range: A below Middle C, B, Middle C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C D

The range for the contemporary hymn is bigger than the range for the traditional hymn, but goes four steps lower, and only one step higher.

This is fun. Let’s do one more:

Hail, Holy Queen–range: B flat below middle C, Middle C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D

I Am The Bread of Life–range A below Middle C, B, Middle C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E

The range for the contemporary hymn is bigger, goes a half step lower than the traditional hymn, and one step higher.

As you can plainlyl see, the contemporary hymns are NOT written in a higher range (most are actually lower), and they are hardly written in a “coloratura” range.

As I said in my earlier post, very few hymns in the hymnal are higher than the D (one octave plus one step above Middle C), and very few are lower than the A below Middle C.

I’ve played the piano for years in churches, and I’m quite familiar with hundreds of hymns. Most are written in that very narrow range.

This should be a comfortable range for most people. There will certainly be exceptions, but most people should be able to sing all the notes in this range.

Consider this–many women are sopranos, and would find a range much lower than this very uncomfortable.

And consider this–the whole point of a hymn is for people to all join in and sing it TOGETHER. Hymns are not meant to be sung as melodies only. Composers write hymns in several parts because they want people to work together to produce a beautiful piece of music. This involves cooperation. The sopranos and tenors carry the melody and the high notes, while the altos and basses provide the foundation.

It’s an analogy of I Corinthians 12-14. We are the Body of Christ, but we are not all ears or mouths or hands. We all have a different function in the “song” of our lives. We all need to do our OWN part, not try to do a part meant for someone else.

That isn’t musical incompetence. It’s extremely competent to write pieces in parts.

Musical incompetence is not knowing how to sing those parts and refusing to learn.

And YES, I believe that in the past, people were trained how to sing. Have you ever read the Little House books by Laura Ingalls Wilder? She not only records a legacy of singing with her family (her father accompanied them on the violin, and her sister Mary learned to play the organ and was able to accompany them), but she also writes about the Singing School that was offered by the schoolteacher.

So why are we better than our near ancestors? I believe it is a worthy thing to learn more about proper singing, especially if we intend to use our newly-acquired skills to sing to God’s glory in the Holy Mass. If we sing correctly, we won’t be breathless at the end of a song, and we won’t have sore throat. It’s just a lot more comfortable to sing correctly.

 

[LilyM]

As you can plainlyl see, the contemporary hymns are NOT written in a higher range (most are actually lower), and they are hardly written in a “coloratura” range.

As I said in my earlier post, very few hymns in the hymnal are higher than the D (one octave plus one step above Middle C), and very few are lower than the A below Middle C.

I’ve played the piano for years in churches, and I’m quite familiar with hundreds of hymns. Most are written in that very narrow range.

This should be a comfortable range for most people. There will certainly be exceptions, but most people should be able to sing all the notes in this range.

Consider this–many women are sopranos, and would find a range much lower than this very uncomfortable.

And consider this–the whole point of a hymn is for people to all join in and sing it TOGETHER. Hymns are not meant to be sung as melodies only. Composers write hymns in several parts because they want people to work together to produce a beautiful piece of music. This involves cooperation. The sopranos and tenors carry the melody and the high notes, while the altos and basses provide the foundation.

It’s an analogy of I Corinthians 12-14. We are the Body of Christ, but we are not all ears or mouths or hands. We all have a different function in the “song” of our lives. We all need to do our OWN part, not try to do a part meant for someone else.

That isn’t musical incompetence. It’s extremely competent to write pieces in parts.

Musical incompetence is not knowing how to sing those parts and refusing to learn.

And YES, I believe that in the past, people were trained how to sing. Have you ever read the Little House books by Laura Ingalls Wilder? She not only records a legacy of singing with her family (her father accompanied them on the violin, and her sister Mary learned to play the organ and was able to accompany them), but she also writes about the Singing School that was offered by the schoolteacher.

So why are we better than our near ancestors? I believe it is a worthy thing to learn more about proper singing, especially if we intend to use our newly-acquired skills to sing to God’s glory in the Holy Mass. If we sing correctly, we won’t be breathless at the end of a song, and we won’t have sore throat. It’s just a lot more comfortable to sing correctly.

Hymns are meant to be sung in parts - great. So we don’t just need training in carrying a melody, which many people can’t do at the best of times, but in part-singing as well! And I severely dispute that most women are sopranos - how is it that none of 'em can hit the high notes then? And what about the 50% of the male congregation, you can’t tell me most of 'em are tenors!

Regardless of whether hymns are meant to be sung in parts, those parts aren’t put in the hymnals for us to sing. That being the case, cater for the majority of your congregation who can’t or won’t be able to hit the high notes you seem to think are normal.

And if your information about ranges is accurate, all that proves is that ALL of 'em as set in your OCP hymnal are set too darn high for the average range of the modern person, even if they’re within the same range as the average older hymn. Again, it won’t kill anyone to play 'em lower, rather have botched low notes than unreachable high notes any day.

If you want me to sing parts, fine, at the very least give me the parts in the hymnal so that I can learn to do so!

And of course everyone was fortunate enough to own violins and organs in the days of Laura Ingalls Wilder. :nope: If you’re a professional musician then you must know as I do that both musical instruments and musical training were then and still are now, pretty darned expensive in the best of circumstances.

And you’re assuming that all could afford to attend school in the first place before the late 1800s when it became compulsory and free or low-cost. Let alone shell out more money or taking the time from necessary work for extra curricular singing lessons after school.

Give me a break. Laura Ingalls Wilder was in the privileged minority in being able to read and write sufficiently to write her own books, let alone having any greater learning.