Why don't Protestants asks the saints for intercession?

[geebob]

I had more thoughts on this, but here’s just a few.

citing intercession and healing powers of living persons just isn’t that strong of a counterexample to the protestant objection to praying to the saints. While it does show that the logic that Jesus is our only mediator is not absolute, there still is a difference between our piety as excersized in community and the separation of death that is still the curse that has not been completely eradicated.

If death severs marriage, then I don’t see why it doesn’t sever less close relationships such as that of a prayer partner.

The saints in heaven (that is ALL the believers, not just the cannonized ones, one of those category differences we have with catholics) are still very concerned with what goes on here on earth, but that doesn’t mean that this relationship of requesting intercession should be a part of our prayer life.

Someone mentioned that the advantage of praying to someone in heaven is that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much and those in heaven are surely righteous having been perfected. But this arguably another severance of something beneficial to our spiritual growth, that we should seek out people in the here and now who are righteous to see that such lives are indeed lived and to personally ask them for prayers.

and no, most protestants do not pray to their deceased mothers.

 

[onenow1]

Hi,

Christ lives and those faithful to Him in love, also live, there is no other way to understand His promise to us. Others who know Him not, are also in His hands not ours, His justice will be done, not our assumptions.

This should convince us ! (Rom. 8:35- 39). I am convinced that neither death, nor life . . . will be able to separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord". Since death has no power to sever the bond of Christian unity, the relationship between Christians on earth and those in heaven remain intact.

Eye has not seen,ear has not heard what God has in store for us ! Believe>in His Love:bible1:

God Bless All

 

[geebob]

Since death has no power to sever the bond of Christian unity, the relationship between Christians on earth and those in heaven remain intact.

The bond to Jesus Christ is not the bond we have with each other. Again, marriage is one of the most sacred bonds that we have and yet it ends at death. Death is death. It is very painful because relationships are indeed very much severed, relationships that are very much connected through our physical presence as God intended (and still intends as there will be a bodily resurection).

 

[onenow1]

The bond to Jesus Christ is not the bond we have with each other. Again, marriage is one of the most sacred bonds that we have and yet it ends at death. Death is death. It is very painful because relationships are indeed very much severed, relationships that are very much connected through our physical presence as God intended (and still intends as there will be a bodily resurection).

Hi, Geebob, and welcome !

I disagree with your assumption Bob, I will always Love my mother and father as I hope you do ! The bond cannot be broken, Jesus demonstrated this on the cross.

God Bless

 

[Richard_Kastner]

It seems to me a natural thing to ask the Saints in heaven to pray for me just as I ask people here on earth to pray for me. Just because the Saints are no longer here on earth doesn’t seem to be a reason not to ask them for help. Look at Revelations 5:8:

Quote:
When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

This seems to me to obviously be a reference to the saints in heaven praying for us.

Here’s another one

Revelation 8:3
3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Why do you think these saints have to be in heaven. It seems to me these are references to the altar of burnt incense that was in the sanctuary of the temple and represented the prayers of the saints on earth rising to heaven.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Well, how about the empirical proof - does it work in practice or not? I submit that it does work in practice. There’s a mountain of evidence in both the Catholic and Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Churches, for various miracles including miraculous healings obtained by praying to deceased saints. This thing WORKS. That’s out of question.

So, if it works, is it from God, or is it from Satan?

If it’s from God, then obviously we are doing the right thing. Then, we are in harmony with God’s intent, when we ask deceased saints to intercede with God on our behalf.

If, on the other hand, this thing is from Satan, then the whole early Church fell into Satan’s trap and was on the wrong track for as long as 1500 years, until the Protestants finally showed up. Then, the Gates of Hell prevailed over the Church, and kept it in bondage, until Luther, Calvin, and others came to establish a new and free Church, which is no longer in apostasy. Anyone familiar with Church history knows that prayers to deceased saints were the norm throughout the history of the Catholic Church. Moreover, the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from us Catholics in the 5th and 11th centuries respectively, have kept the same practice of praying to deceased saints and asking them to intercede for us. So, that means that everyone was in apostasy for 1500 years, there was no true faith, no glorious and undefeatable Church, only a bunch of lost and misguided dupes, duped and shackled by Satan, until the Reformation came around.

Well, I do not believe this latter scenario is true. Jesus Christ promised to Peter that he would build his Church on him, and that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church. He did not promise to build his Church on those who disagree with Peter (and his successors the Popes), and also didn’t say that there would be no true and glorious Church (true and glorious in the sense of not being in Satan’s bondage) for several centuries, until someone like Luther, Calvin, or perhaps Mohammed (Islam) or Joseph Smith (Mormons) for that matter, would finally come along and establish a Church which is free of Satan.

 

[geebob]

I disagree with your assumption Bob, I will always Love my mother and father as I hope you do ! The bond cannot be broken, Jesus demonstrated this on the cross.

Now now! :tsktsk: who said that we stop loving those who go on to the next step. Certainly not me.

If there is any confusion by the way about my comment about mothers, it was in response to someone who just assumed that everyone says a petitionary prayer to their mother when they die. I think that was an odd assumption.

But the relationship is not there. it is put on hold. Surely you understand that when we are reunited with our loved ones, we will be REUNITED with our loved ones, because clearly, there is a unity, a bond that is no longer there. Otherwise, if all is well and perfectly the same, there is no need for us to see our loved ones ever again.

Is everyone also just conveniently ignoring my example. Death ends marriage. That doesn’t mean that a man stops loving his wife, but there fellowship has come to an end, again until they are reunited (granted the restored relationship

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

geebob and Richard Kastner:

if our relationship with the saints is severed, if they no longer pray for us, then we are back to what **Alexandra Kent **suggested (tongue-in-cheek, of course ) in post #31, namely:

"they automatically forget about their loved ones on earth and go live in a little self-absorbed cloud of angels"

and

"They could pray for us when they were on earth, but when they finally get to the seat of all power and glory, they just kind of fizzle out…loose all sense of charity for humanity…figure their time is done getting stuck handling all those prayer requests and go play a harp or take in some cloud bowling… "

So, is this what you suggest, too, that the saints are doing in Heaven?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Well, let’s imagine Padre Pio, the great intercessor and miracle worker while alive, now that he is deceased. So, he is looking down from Heaven, and sees us in our distress, and sees and hears every word of our prayers, begging him to intercede for us (because the Bible says, we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses in Heaven). And Padre Pio’s soul, sipping a Margarita while relaxing in a hammock bed under the shade of heavenly palm trees on the heavenly beach, says to himself:

**“Suckers! Leave me alone, dammit! I prayed enough for you, while I was living in that pitiful place named Earth! But now that I graduated, I want to enjoy MY retirement! MY golden years! ME, MYSELF, and I !!!” **

 

[Jesness]

Many Protestant denominations do not view prayer the same way that Catholics do. For many-a Protestant prayer is always an act of worship, so to pray to a saint would be idoltry. Also, solely speaking about my baptist friends, they can’t reconcile intercession with the command to not pray to spirits, it doesn’t matter if that spirit is a saint.

 

[JonNC]

Many Protestant denominations do not view prayer the same way that Catholics do. For many-a Protestant prayer is always an act of worship, so to pray to a saint would be idoltry. Also, solely speaking about my baptist friends, they can’t reconcile intercession with the command to not pray to spirits, it doesn’t matter if that spirit is a saint.

And that has to do with semantics. Catholics view “pray” in a more historic sense, where its meaning is not only worship (latria). Even today one will here the phrase, “pray tell”, etc. Pray can mean “request”, or “ask fervently”.

For Lutherans, as has been mentioned earlier, the issue is not whether or not the saints in Heaven pray for the Church Militant. They do. The issue may not even be whether or not they hear our requests for intercession with Christ. The issue is, is there a command, an example, or a promise regarding invocation of the saints. As there isn’t, we believe that the consciense of the believer should not be bound to it.
OTOH, I see no condemnation in scripture of it, either.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

And that has to do with semantics. Catholics view “pray” in a more historic sense, where its meaning is not only worship (latria). Even today one will here the phrase, “pray tell”, etc. Pray can mean “request”, or “ask fervently”.

For Lutherans, as has been mentioned earlier, the issue is not whether or not the saints in Heaven pray for the Church Militant. They do. The issue may not even be whether or not they hear our requests for intercession with Christ. The issue is, is there a command, an example, or a promise regarding invocation of the saints. As there isn’t, we believe that the consciense of the believer should not be bound to it.
OTOH, I see no condemnation in scripture of it, either.

Jon

I wish all posters here were as honest and well spoken as you, Jon.

I have a question. Do Lutherans believe in the “Communion of Saints”?
If so, what does “communion” mean to you and would it not follow that if this doctrine is true that we would be able communicate, through “prayer”, with the Body of Christ in heaven, the Church Triumphant? That would include interceding for us just as we intercede for each other here on earth, would it not.

Thanks.

 

[geebob]

Jesness, what is that bible verse? I think someone referred to it earlier.

Joseph Varga,

if our relationship with the saints is severed, if they no longer pray for us, then we are back to what Alexandra Kent suggested (tongue-in-cheek, of course ) in post #31, namely:

“they automatically forget about their loved ones on earth and go live in a little self-absorbed cloud of angels”

I don’t see why this follows at all. If it is truly inappropriate for us to pray to the saints, it does not follow at all that they are not concerned with what goes on down on earth nor that they aren’t busy with God’s plans as concerns us, whatever that may be. Furthermore, if it is inappropriate for us for us to pray to the saints, you can be sure that one of there concerns they have for us is that we are praying to them instead of God. And then there may be an issue for them to intercede on behalf of us, along the lines of “God, they’re praying to us and we realize that’s misguided. Please show them some leniency and help them to be open to what the protestants are saying on the issue and to understand prayer is designed for you and you alone.”

(because the Bible says, we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses in Heaven

which makes the lack of a biblical example of prayer for intercession from the deceased all the more concerning regarding the practice. We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, yet never in the canonized literature does it occur to the scripture authors to model this practice nor recommend it to the church.

Regarding you post directly above mine, I’ll say that I sympathize with the empirical evidence except I don’t know just how good that is.

And what if the church was wrong? I am very uncomfortable with this doctrine for a couple of reasons. At the very worst, it is an instance of necromancy that was condemned in the law and/or it is not enough of a break with pagan ancestor focused religion. I’m a protesting protestant but I don’t think of myself as that anti-catholic and I really hope that that is not it. Even as a protestant, I completely see a problem with a view that the true church has been lost for centuries and I don’t believe that (and my notion of the true church is that it was and is within the catholic church, but was never really clearly identical with it). (at least though, contrary to what you say, it does not go all the way back 15 centuries preceding the reformation but to about the 3rd century). At best it is a harmless practice and God works in spite of it. I suspect the middle ground is the case, that this is not good for Christians to do, it is not harmless, but God may be lenient.

And if it is true, we protestants aren’t really missing out on anything, there is no scriptural reason to believe that our piety is lacking something because we don’t engage in it.

 

[Alexandra_Kent]

Jesness, what is that bible verse? I think someone referred to it earlier.

Joseph Varga,

I don’t see why this follows at all. If it is truly inappropriate for us to pray to the saints, it does not follow at all that they are not concerned with what goes on down on earth nor that they aren’t busy with God’s plans as concerns us, whatever that may be. Furthermore, if it is inappropriate for us for us to pray to the saints, you can be sure that one of there concerns they have for us is that we are praying to them instead of God. And then there may be an issue for them to intercede on behalf of us, along the lines of “God, they’re praying to us and we realize that’s misguided. Please show them some leniency and help them to be open to what the protestants are saying on the issue and to understand prayer is designed for you and you alone.”

which makes the lack of a biblical example of prayer for intercession from the deceased all the more concerning regarding the practice. We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, yet never in the canonized literature does it occur to the scripture authors to model this practice nor recommend it to the church.

I do not understand why people think life ends at death and we have to stop asking people to intercede for us when they die. In that case, protestants should behave more like this while alive:

Me: “Hey, my good friend (whatever their name may be. Lets use Steve). Hey Steve. I am in distress. My husband is dying. I am so worried about him. He is suffering much. He is threatening to turn against God. He can hardly breathe. He is bleeding internally. The doctors say his suffering must be excruciating beyond belief. A real martyrdom. Will you pray for him?”

Steve: “You know, I feel bad for your husband, but your request really is misguided. I do not know why you are asking me to pray for your husband. You should really only be asking God for help, not me.”

Me: "Steve, I already am asking God for help. So is my husband. But I just thought if you prayed too it may help even more. You know, ‘wherever two or more are gathered in my name…’ "

Steve: “I am so sorry, I just feel it is really misguided for you to ask me to pray for your husband. I am just not comfortable with this. It is not biblical. Where in scripture does it say you should ask someone else to pray for another person or their concerns? This is between you and God alone.”

Me: “How can it be between me and God alone? No man is an island to himself. In heaven, all are connected and united and one persons concern is the other persons concern.”

Steve: “Yeah, but we are not in heaven yet…”

Me: “So when you get to heaven, will you pray for my husband?”

Steve: “That is not scriptural!”

Was man made for scripture or was scripture made for man?

 

[Hiskid1973]

Another thing with the cloud of witnesses(Heb.12)( remember my post about the OT saints that were resurrected after after Jesus’s death/resurrection)if you bump back to chapter 11 your told about the great OT saints in a chapter of faith who didn’t receive the promise. Then he mentioned the cloud of witnesses…

 

[GaryTaylor]

A couple thoughts

1. The scriptures seem to use the word 'saints' when the word means all good Christians. "When the saints go marching in...."

 2. There are so many saints - 10,000 is it? - and some have been dropped from the church calendar, some because they may be mythical, or at least with tales badly infected by myth.

 3. I watch the Lords from time to time on EWTN. Many of their stories about saints - forgive me - seem far-fetched, to put it mildly, more paganish than Christian. 

 4. This is not only true of saints from years, even centuries ago. I have made a bit of a study of Padre Pio, how he is said to have biocated, levitated, etc. Yes, this is possible, of course, as God can do anything, but I find it hard to believe, and the evidence seems thin. Sorry.

 5. Miracles performed by saints? I guess I have a problem with that whole concept, It sounds as though if you pray to a saint he will become a lobbyist for you with God/Christ, and because of his intercession that favor (miracle) will be granted. Why do I have trouble with that? There are pentecostal and various other evangelists who every day claim that through them 'miracles are performed' because they are 'anointed' etc. Do we accept their claims, too? 

 6. This business of a saint for just about every cause, occupation, country, etc. It also gives me problems. Gosh, I asked St. Anthony of Padua for help to find lost items many times, and he often doesn't help. Why is that? Have I been bad? Is he asleep? Yet, when we do find the lost item we give him the credit. A bit of inconsistency there?

 7. If you believe everything the Church says or claims, this should not be a problem for you. But for those of us with a somewhat skeptical mind, who want our religious faith to be reasonable and in accord with science, hm - the whole 'saint' system sounds like a leftover from more primitive times when most Christians also believed that demons caused disease, that sinners could spend eternity in the fires of hell, and that the earth was flat as well as the center of the universe. In reading the Church Fathers, many believed all that. People know better today. We have microscopes and telescopes such as our ancestors never dreamed of.    

  But to each his/her own. I believe in a big-tent Christianity where diverse views are permitted. When we get to the world-to-come my guess is that all of us have been way off base. Our finite minds are quite amazing - consider the invention of the IPod, for example. - but not amazing enough to fathom those deep mysteries that surround us.

  God bless everybody.

iPod? lol Yes the creature is wonderful, lets pray to him.

You should actually be reading up on this instead of quick google searchs and nonsense on Television. You might find St Padre Pios’s Miracles are well know and mutiple. The healings he performed through Prayer intercession which are confirmed, are what made him a Saint. One was a direct intercession as a favor asked by John Paul II while he was Arch Bishop. But why should we believe him, right?

Job in scripture is the example of prayer intercession. Then theres’s 2000 years of confirmed history. All of it is fake is what your saying? St. Teresa of Avila? all documented and confirmed. St John of the Cross? all documented and confirmed. The Sun Dancing at Fatima and the message of Prayer intercession? Fake too?

Yes the effort it takes in reading and comprehension is vast. It won’t happen on fast google sights or TV. But the Truth is out here. You just need to seek it in an honest effort to find it.

When your of this world I guess its almost impossible to comprehend Gods. And there lies the problem with many denominations. The infusion of the modern world with Christianity which would like the view the Catholic Church as outdated.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John

Its like looking the Sun, it blinds and all then is Black. But the Sun is still there.

So man will save us in the end? Now that seems far fetched to me. There’s some scary thinking. Man so wonderful he don’t know how to stop killing yet and thats been going since 2700-BC

My Prayers are with you.

God Bless, Gary

 

[mark_a]

It seems to me a natural thing to ask the Saints in heaven to pray for me just as I ask people here on earth to pray for me. Just because the Saints are no longer here on earth doesn’t seem to be a reason not to ask them for help. Look at Revelations 5:8:

This seems to me to obviously be a reference to the saints in heaven praying for us.

I know P-L-E-N-T-Y of protestants who believe that there is a loved one in heaven watching over, watching out for, making good things happen for, or otherwise guiding their lives.

P-L-E-N-T-Y. It is a very common theme at fundie funerals too.

 

[geebob]

I do not understand why people think life ends at death and we have to stop asking people to intercede for us when they die.

Don’t know how you came to that interpretation.

And I explained the distinction in my earlier posts.

And the situation you describe is contrived. We have every biblical reason to appeal to the intercession of the saints, the ones here on earth just as is modeled for us.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Don’t know how you came to that interpretation.

And I explained the distinction in my earlier posts.

And the situation you describe is contrived. We have every biblical reason to appeal to the intercession of the saints, the ones here on earth just as is modeled for us.

Do you have link for the Doctrine of your Church in what you actually do believe?

 

[mark_a]

As there isn’t, we believe that the consciense of the believer should not be bound to it.

Hi Jon,

Catholics may not deny any dogma such as the intercession of the Saints. That doesn’t mean they are required to ask Saints for intercession.