Why don't Protestants believe in purgatory?

[Techno2000]

Thanks to all who presented insight on this. Is it too simple for Catholics and non-catholics to both realize that we agree that God alone is the judge and sole determiner of the eternal fate of a human soul?

Yes of course, if a soul goes to Hell, it is by their own choosing, God just pronounces the sentence, if you are sorry for your sins at your judgment before God he will feel for you too, but you may have a long stay in purgatory.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Just to point out something that some Catholic seem to be confused about (and I never said her baby was in purgatory, I said I prayed for her baby’s soul, there’s a difference, I pray for my dad’s soul too, even though he may or may not be in heaven), but this are in fact prayers for unbaptized infants that have died in the funeral rite of the Mass. I’m a little confused why people are being kind of uptight

 

[adamhovey1988]

Oh, were you trying to keep that a secret?

Ow! I’m kidding, I’m kidding. But seriously (and just for what it’s worth – I won’t make any assertions about how much that should be) I’ve also known many Roman Catholics who get a little angry when the Eastern Orthodox say that our Eucharist is invalid.

Well, most of the time II have received the Eucharist from in Eastern churches are from former Orthodox priests. Did they become un-ordained when they made a profession of faith to Rome? But I digress.

 

[Peter_J]

Did they become un-ordained when they made a profession of faith to Rome?

I believe the term is “laicized”, but I’m not sure why you’re asking.

 

[Reuben_J]

Thank you for your patience as I am unclear. We have established that this person is locked in their position because at the moment of death they despised Jesus. Are you saying this person could experience purgatory and then heaven if someone else had prayed for him before he died?

The Catholic position is actually quite clear. When a person dies, he/she will be either saved or not saved. The saved shall destined heaven, the one not saved go to hell.

But only the perfect and the pure would be in heaven. Thus we have two categories of being saved now - the ones who go straight to heaven and the other, go to purgatory before eventually go to heaven.

The prayers for the deads. are for those in purgatory, not those in hell who have no chance whatsoever of making it to heaven. No amount of our prayers will change it.

So why pray for the souls in purgatory? I think this is the issue with Protestants. Catholics believe that the livings and the deads (the saved, for lack of better word) are in communion as a church. Praying for those in purgatory would be no different than praying for each other. What would our prayers achieve? That’s certainly beyond our knowing, even for a Catholic priest. What we know as always is that prayers achieve good things. What is good for the souls in purgatory, our prayers would achieve it. Again, the prayers do not change God’s judgment to reverse the going to hell sentence.

 

[Peter_J]

Peter J was right,

Why thank you.

I didn’t get involved with this thread when it first started (IIRC I might have just read the OP and then stopped) but somehow got into it with today’s “reboot”. Which is good because I have a question: is it Catholic teaching that a person in purgatory cannot pray for himself/herself?

 

[Techno2000]

The Catholic position is actually quite clear. When a person dies, he/she will be either saved or not saved. The saved shall destined heaven, the one not saved go to hell.

But only the perfect and the pure would be in heaven. Thus we have two categories of being saved now - the ones who go straight to heaven and the other, go to purgatory before eventually go to heaven.

The prayers for the deads. are for those in purgatory, not those in hell who have no chance whatsoever of making it to heaven. No amount of our prayers will change it.

So why pray for the souls in purgatory? I think this is the issue with Protestants. Catholics believe that the livings and the deads (the saved, for lack of better word) are in communion as a church. Praying for those in purgatory would be no different than praying for each other. What would our prayers achieve? That’s certainly beyond our knowing, even for a Catholic priest. What we know as always is that prayers achieve good things. What is good for the souls in purgatory, our prayers would achieve it. Again, the prayers do not change God’s judgment to reverse the going to hell sentence.

I have read somewhere that prayers for souls in purgatory bring them some kind of refreshment of some sort, and also shortens their stay there.

 

[Alex_H]

Protestants deny the existence of purgatory because the Catholic Church used the belief to sell indulgences to the populace to pay down the debt it incurred by building Saint Peter’s Basilica.

Some have said that the practice of selling indulgences was particularly prevalent in parts of Germany. Thus, a German monk named Martin Luther rebelled from the corruption of the Catholic Church and started his new religion that was diametrically opposed to Catholic (and purgatorial) teaching.

Now I make no apology for what the Catholic Church did. What it did during those times was wrong, especially for the Germans.

That said, the corruption of the human heart does not negate the historical reality that purgatory and prayers for the dead had become a prevalent belief in the Christian community since the second century A.D. Indeed, many great Christian thinkers and saints espoused the belief.

So, in conclusion, what the Catholic Church did was wrong. The fact that the Church used the existence of purgatory to exploit people out of money to pay for a basilica was wrong.

This does not make Purgatory any less of a historical reality, though. It was believed by the earliest Christians and saints. It was spoken about, metaphorically, in Matthew 5.

I believe in Purgatory because it is spoken of in scripture, was believed by the earliest Christians and saints, and makes the most sense (to me). The fact that the church used that belief to scam people out of money does not provide doubt to the existence of Purgatory but merely confirms the cruelty of the human heart.

 

[Reuben_J]

Why thank you.

I didn’t get involved with this thread when it first started (IIRC I might have just read the OP and then stopped) but somehow got into it with today’s “reboot”. Which is good because I have a question:

Me too. Usually I went in when something struck where I could say something.

is it Catholic teaching that a person in purgatory cannot pray for himself/herself?

No. Logically they should be able to. We know the saints in heaven do pray (worshipping, praising, intercession, …), so do too the souls in purgatory.

Reason we pray for them, basically, is the same reason we pray for each other. Sometimes it is just a matter of somewhat different petition, depending on the prayer intention. But someone do correct me if I am wrong … The time in purgatory is a time of grace, a time of purification through prayers and through ‘fire’.

 

[Reuben_J]

I have read somewhere that prayers for souls in purgatory bring them some kind of refreshment of some sort, and also shortens their stay there.

Sure, they do.

This is a popular assumption and talking point among Catholics but honestly beyond the official teaching of the Church, we can only assume by logical deduction. But it is no harm in doing that, I mean what our prayers can do to the souls in purgatory, because that in itself would encourage praying.

Telling that to a Protestant would be another matter though, who by default has huge issue with Catholicism. Seeing us making assumption on the hereafter would not impress them too much but more of giving them an impression like, “look at what they are doing, heretics.”

But it is quite standard Catholic belief that our prayers do help to shorten the time in purgatory. On the other hand, there are stories of saints also, who wanted to spend time in purgatory for atonement and purification before meeting their Maker. These would consider purgatory as time of grace indeed.

 

[Peter_J]

Me too. Usually I went in when something struck where I could say something.

No. Logically they should be able to. We know the saints in heaven do pray (worshipping, praising, intercession, …), so do too the souls in purgatory.

Reason we pray for them, basically, is the same reason we pray for each other. Sometimes it is just a matter of somewhat different petition, depending on the prayer intention. But someone do correct me if I am wrong …

Just speaking for myself I cannot say your wrong. I think my source for “a person in purgatory cannot pray for himself/herself” was my 4th grade teacher or someone like that. I don’t want to claim that that proves it to be the Catholic teaching (especially after all the times I’ve criticized people who say “I read such and such on a Catholic blog, so that proves it to be the Catholic teaching” ).

 

[PJM]

Here is why I do not believe in Purgatory:
Org POST & my REPLY on 4 or 5 consecutive post

First my friend permit me to welcome you to CAF. We are grateful that the Holy Spirit has led you to this door of information. As a FYI; CAF limits the size of post & replies. In order to address all 11 of your post points it seems quite likely that MY REPLY will take multiple post-replies to address them. It seems prudent as you are new here to get off on the “right-foot.” And give you sufficient information on the points you have raised. God willing something to think and pray about.

**For the sake of clarity I have numbered the points that need to be replied too.

Here is why I do not believe in Purgatory:

 

[PJM]

Pt 2

Underlying you’re [meaning here Protestant] unbelief are 3 factors

[1] Unbelief or wrong understanding of what the Bible actually teaches Mt 28:18-20

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
[Douay Bible explanation]

[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world.E Q

Eph. 2: 20-23 [today’s CC is] “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: In whom all the building, [singular] being framed together, groweth up into a holy temple in the Lord. [singular] In whom you also are built together into a habitation of God in the Spirit.”

Mark.4: 11 “And he said to them, "To you [the Apostles] has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;”

[2] Not being able to correctly understand what the bible is actually teaching [imposed by the HS] is just the first impediment to wrong or the lack of right understanding on Purgatory.

God’s VERY Nature is also not being understood. God defined as ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED; must in an absolute sense be Fair and Just. He Morally cannot judge Protestants on a different set of beliefs than He does Catholics. One True God can have only One true set of faith beliefs [Eph 4:1-17] which do not allow for different standards of Judgment; punishment and rewards. God simply could not have waited for Luther’s personal views some 1,500 years after Christ own Faith [which Luther as an apostate- catholic-priest would have known] to make known HIS one set of beliefs Mt 16:18; Jn 17:17-20 & Mt 28:19-20.

This is literally impossible as it would mean that what the CC teaches and had taught for 1;500 years ATFER the resurrection was WRONG and one then assume no one could have been SAVED though He the RCC, while waiting for Luther’s beliefs. A Just & Fair God simply could NOT PERMIT that? It’s beyond impossible!

[3] The very Nature of sin too is incompletely or wrongly understood.

ALL sins have what we might term a “PUBLIC NATURE”, meaning ALL sins affect others besides the sinner. “Others” here is meant to include the Church; ourselves and others within and outside the Church. This added inherent-sin-nature; directly imposed and controlled by Jesus Himself is present EVEN if and AFTER Sacramental

Confession and God’s CHOSEN manner for sin forgiveness. This effect is termed “The Temporal Punishment” due to each and every sin. Only God knows the amount of the debt; and only God knows ** [see indulgences later in this reply] to what degree [if any] this debt has been addressed. BUT addressed it must be to comply with Christ own Divine sense of Fairness and Justice.

**1Jn 1: 6-7 -1 Jn 5: 16-17-Jn 20:119-23 **

2

Purgatory was a big money maker for the Catholic Church as prayers for the dead and indulgencies were sold and actually a major cause for the reformation. The notion of purgatory is offensive to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Nicely put: thank you!

While THE Church Herself is Holy and cannot sin; Her members can and do. This Popes “good intentions” [To build a New Cathedral-Church] was itself a worthy endeavor. HOWEVER a foundational Moral teaching is that one may NEVER do an evil to accomplish a good. And certainly this Pope ought to have known this as should his advisors.

The selling of Indulgences was wrong and has LONG been corrected. I don’t wish to go far astray here and discuss the causes [plural] for the reformation. BUT just as one cannot “work” their way into heaven [in the Protestant wrong-understanding of the term’ NEITHER can one “buy their way into heaven. AMEN!

3

Hebrews 7:25-28, says it is impossible, and atonement is done by Jesus Christ who is the perfect substitute as man is not qualified and cannot add to what Jesus did on the cross.

“Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. Indeed, the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.”

Excellent choice to make your point [so you now think]

MY friend you have missed very much in the way of Catholic Catechesis; and quite possibility not entirely you’re doing. The 50 post Vatican II period was often negligent in this area, which is now slowly being addressed. So you likely never encountered to the “Infallible Rules” for right understanding of the Bible. Allow me to share it with you.

Never Ever; can, may or DOES

One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to

Invalidate, make void or override another

Verse, passage or teaching:

Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith”

See pt 3

 

[PJM]

Pt 3
The second Rule being: If your Understanding does not fully align with Catholic Teaching; it’s wrong and needs to be changed. Mt 10:1-8; Mt 16: 18-19; John 17: 17-20 & Mt 28:19-20

Each of the above is Christ speaking directly to and EXCLUSIVELY to Hos Apostles & their successors. This is assured because when it was authored; guided by the HS; todays Catholic Church was the ONLY Christian faith and church to exist anywhere in the world. Further there exist not one’ not a single bible verse or teaching where God: Yahweh or Jesus even one time approved of; accepted; or even tolerated ANY competing [contradictory] faith beliefs. NOT even one example.

**Mt 28: 19-20 [YOU] “Go **therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded YOU; and lo, I am with YOU always, to the close of the age.”

**2nd. Peter 3: 14-18 **“Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen”

[4]

Jesus Christ does the purifying and the atonement of ALL sin and He did it all as stated in John 19:30 “It is finished!”

**John.19: 30 **“When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished”; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit”

This means only that Jesus acknowledged that He HAD now completed what the Father sent him to do. It does mean or infer any concepts of Justification.

**Jn 20:21-23 **“Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

THAT friend is God’s way!

And here my friend is what you missed or overlooked:
By overlooking verses 25-28 of the same book and chapter you missed this exchange:
So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. [26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” [27] Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. [28] After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfil the scripture), “I thirst.”

In verses 26-27 Jesus literally GIVES His Mother to humanity to be our Mother; or Intercessor which is in great part why Catholic Venerate [not worship] Venerate Mary.
Verse 28: Jesus shouts “I THIRST!” just moments before dying. This was not a request for something to drink; Jesus had already passed up that opportunity and taking nourishment now would only lesson His sacrifice. NO; what Jesus is proclaiming here is that despite all that He had already done and given of Himself, He still desired to do more. That MORE takes 3 forms.

1 His Catholic Church w/ guided and warranted infallibility when teaching of Faith-beliefs and Moral issues only. Jn 17:17-20 & Mt 28:19-20

2 The 7 Sacraments each instituted by Christ to give the grace that they signify. This is the only access to grace wherein man has a critical & essential role in influencing just how much grace will be received.

Especially Sacramental Confession Jn 20:19-23 which is the ONLY God approved NT method. Any other method is flaunt with serious risk as they are not God=approved to override or bypass what He has Ordained and commanded.

And the Real Presence of Jesus in the Most Holy Eucharist, testified to by 5 different authors of the Bible.

2 Thess. 1: 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

3 Giving us Mary as Our Mother and Intercessor. And NO this is not in an absolute sense “necessary”; while it is in every sense beneficial to Souls seeking heaven.

End of Pt 3; Please see next post

 

[PJM]

Pt 4

[6] Our record of sin was cancelled out at the cross – where Jesus took on all sin – past, present, and future. There is no punishment or suffering after death for the Christian.

This friend is a 16th Century Luther-Calvin invention. NOT what Jesus Ordained through Sacramental Confession for the KNOWN forgiveness of sins.
Your theory denies God’s necessary fairness and justice. GOD simply cannot permit or accept as HIS Norm a method that was designed to be simpler and easier; which was exactly what the reformers were shooting for. GOD even used priest in OT times for sin forgiveness. Jesus was following His own Tradition.
Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

[7]Even in the OT the all the Israelites had to do was to look at the brass serpent on the pole to have all their sins forgiven. If sin has not been completely atoned for at the cross, then the death of Jesus was for nothing

Come on! You presume Catholics don’t read the bible. HERE is what the pole actually did:
Numbers 21:6-8 “Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. “

This had ZIP to do with justification or salvation of their souls.

[8]The notion of purgatory is a “works based” belief the man can do something to achieve heaven

As indicated earlier For Catholics “WORKS” in regard to meriting salvation is a term synonymous with CHARITY. Anyone thinking they will get to heaven without charity is sadly mistaken.
[8]

]Man cannot atone for sin. You will get rewards in heaven based upon your “works”, but “works has nothing to do with salvation

REALLY? READ on
[9]

Salvation has to do with accepting the free gift of Jesus Christ, the only way to heaven.
So that’s why HE GOD instituted Sacramental Confession for the KNOWN forgiveness of our sins. Or do you suppose this is only for His Catholic Church? Jn 20:19-23 [shared earlier]

What you suggest is wrong on many counts:

** Denial of God’s Sovereign right** to dictate HOW His Salvation will be conditionally- merited

** Denial of man’s inherent right** to make use of the Spiritual attributes given to us precisely so that we can KNOW what God expects from us regarding our salvation. Always a process! That is WHY we were given minds; intellect and Freewill’s attached to our Souls.

** Denial of the nature of SIN **and just why Christ instituted Sacramental Confession

Denial of just One true God; Faith and Church who holds as Jesus mandated ‘all of the key’s to heaven gate.” Mt 16:18: IGNORE these at your own risk my friend. It’s IN the Bible! Eph 4:1-7

[10]

There is no sin that can be forgiven after death and the only we get to heaven is because we have an advocate, a Savior who took the hit for your sins and covers you with His blood. This is such a fundamental a belief of most Christians other than catholics.

What so now you’re OK with dictating to God what He can and can’t do? VENIAL sins can be forgiven in multiple ways. Mortal sin only through sincere contrite- Sacramental-Confession.

You mentioned earlier; “indulgences” & I spoke of the “Temporal punishment” all sins incur. And this hidden debt must be repaid in full in order for the Soul to be perfect; a condition of Eternal Salvation.

I claimed all sins affect others; here are a few examples. Adultery; abortion; Slander; Missing Mass on Sundays intentionally; lying; theft & pornography. Each of these obviously affect others as well as the sinner. Others includes the Church; those associated with the Church; and those who might be aware of the sin committed by that sinner. Other sins may not be as obvious in affecting others but nevertheless do.
Because of this; sin in addition to being a direct affront on God’s Sovereignty; reflect on the reputation of His Church and its members; and might even lead others to sin in the same manner.

**God with His necessary Fairness and Justice then attaches a Spiritual-punishment to each offense [THE TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT DUE TO SINS] and He alone knows and accepts the necessary payments towards this hidden; BUT very real debt. **

This is where Indulgences and Charity come into play: Our Charity is accepted [and expected] by God as partial payment for sin-debt. Were this the only possible way to make this repayment; we could never KNOW when or IF we have made sufficient repayment while still on earth. Therefore the Known forgiveness of our sins would still be true; BUT even then we could not be “assured” of immediate access to heaven when we die. That darn Temporal Punishment thing. So the Church using God given Power and Authority of “The Key’s to heaven singular gate; devised a method acceptable to GOD to add to and even in a theological-sense, exceed the known effects of our Charity; through the RIGHT use of Indulgences which take CONDITIONALLY 2 common forms.

See next & final post please

 

[PJM]

Post 5 [final]

Partial Indulgences being conditionally able to repay a part of the TP Debt

**Plenary or FULL Indulgences **which can wipe out conditionally the entire T P -Debt
BOTH are very conditional and these conditions must be precisely and fully met for their effects to take place. And there are a multitude of both kinds made available to Catholics to aid the necessary perfection of our Souls.

PLEASE READ ALL OF THE WORDS CAREFULLY: Mt. 16:18-19 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Here the terms bind and loose have 2 applications. 1. Sin forgiveness 2. Unlimited Powers of Church Governance; answerable only to God. [Infallibility pt 2]
[11] God has an “integrated” plan that is unveiled through the inspired word of God. The apostles never spoke of a third place other than heaven or hell. Purgatory is based upon catholic “sacred tradition” but I believe according to Timothy that the Bible is “God- breathed, not tradition breathed. When I accepted Christ, changed my old ways, repented for my sins, I became the property of Jesus Christ, my name written in the Book of Life (and God does not have an eraser!).

You HOPE; but don’t my friend count on it. Your Assuming God is OK with Luther and Calvin’s 16th century inventions that HAD to be simpler and easier in order to compete with the then 1,500 year Old and world-wide-entrenched Catholic Church they too abandoned. All-Protestant faiths; whether intended to or not [founders DID intend; followers may or may not knowingly do so; which matters only conditionally in God’s Judgment] are designed to compete in various manners and to variant degrees with what Jesus Ordained; Founded; protects and desires. NOT the conditions to give certitude to your chosen belief system.

Here an admonition directed directly to folks LIKE you who have chosen to abandon God [will GOD actually accept man’s recently invented competition faith beliefs? Don’t be too quick to bet your soul on it.]

Heb. 6: 4-8 “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [HAVE RECEIVED CHRISTIAN Baptism] who have tasted the heavenly gift,[RECEIVED CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION: JESUS HIMSELF!!] And have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [ACCEPTED CATHOLIC CONFIRMATION WHICH BTH; ESTABLISHES A PERSONAL COVENANT-RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CONFIRMED AND GOD] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [HAVE HEARD THE WORDS OF GOD EXPLAINED CORRECTLY TO THEM] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.”

[12]Although I only believe in the 66 books of the Bible, the verse in Maccabee’s that is often brought up has one big flaw. The sin committed was idolatry under the catholic view’ this is indeed an mortal sin in the eyes of God (i.e., worse sin to God) and they will be in hell, not purgatory, for this sin.

My dear friend, if you only and actually knew 10% of what you think you know about Catholicism you very likely would not literally have abandoned [apostate now] GOD; & His One true set of Faith beliefs. Even GOD can’t hold contrary beliefs on the same defined issues. And the only Church Founded; guided and guarded by BOTH Jesus … Jn 17:17-19 & the H S Mt 28:20 ; which explain just WHY there ARE thousands of differing belief-churches within the Protestant ranks. [After only 500 years] while the CC still holds to just ONE set of Faith beliefs after 2,000 years. There HAS to be a reason for this my friend.

Succinctly put Purgatory is a 2-fold manifestation of God’s Love and Mercy

God desires that All men be saved 1st Tim 2:4

Only Perfect or Souls perfected AFTER death by Purgatory will be admitted into heaven; souls that ALSO repaid the entire debt of TP due to sins

Because MANY Souls not surely-Condemned to Hell by unforgiven Mortal sins; having only Venial sin and or UNPAID TP due to their sins that need to be PURGED in order to access Heaven; W/O Purgatory would have no JUST & Fair place to God; being worthy in that “state” of neither Hell or Heaven.

God created Purgatory so that VERY MANY more souls could eventually BUT surly attain the Beatific Vision of Heaven. In other WORDS Purgatory exist Because of God’s Love and Mercy.

God Bless you & again welcome to CAF!

Patrick [PJM] here on CAF

END of My reply

 

[Techno2000]

Pt 4

This friend is a 16th Century Luther-Calvin invention. NOT what Jesus Ordained through Sacramental Confession for the KNOWN forgiveness of sins.
Your theory denies God’s necessary fairness and justice. GOD simply cannot permit or accept as HIS Norm a method that was designed to be simpler and easier; which was exactly what the reformers were shooting for. GOD even used priest in OT times for sin forgiveness. Jesus was following His own Tradition.
Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

Come on! You presume Catholics don’t read the bible. HERE is what the pole actually did:
Numbers 21:6-8 “Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. “

This had ZIP to do with justification or salvation of their souls.

As indicated earlier For Catholics “WORKS” in regard to meriting salvation is a term synonymous with CHARITY. Anyone thinking they will get to heaven without charity is sadly mistaken.
[8]
REALLY? READ on
[9]

Salvation has to do with accepting the free gift of Jesus Christ, the only way to heaven.
So that’s why HE GOD instituted Sacramental Confession for the KNOWN forgiveness of our sins. Or do you suppose this is only for His Catholic Church? Jn 20:19-23 [shared earlier]

 

[spedteacherita]

Here is a philosophical question regarding purgatory:

I’ve understood that God is outside of our “time” meaning that once we die we are in God’s Presence-

2 Corinthians 5-1-8

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If this is the case, then how can there be “years or days” in a place called Purgatory?

Just a thought…for discussion…

Blessings,

Rita

 

[Techno2000]

Here is a philosophical question regarding purgatory:

I’ve understood that God is outside of our “time” meaning that once we die we are in God’s Presence-

If this is the case, then how can there be “years or days” in a place called Purgatory?

Just a thought…for discussion…

Blessings,

Rita

Because, Purgatory and Hell are under the Earth, which is the Abyss or Netherworld.

 

[spedteacherita]

Because, Purgatory and Hell are under the Earth, which is the Abyss or Netherworld.

Thanks…

But, then, what do we do with 2 Cor. 5:8?

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Rita