Why don't Protestants learn Catholic Church history?

[Peter_J]

I think you’ve seen Patch Adams too many times.

Anyone here a fan of that movie (or of the particular scene in that video)?

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

Indeed. And, relating this back to misunderstandings of history, one of my pet peeves is when people say that we’ve been in schism since 1054 because that’s when those anathemas etc. etc.

I think a lot of people just use 1054 as a convenient date, since people tend to want a short answer to when we schismed from each other. People don’t always like, “The schism was a complicated event that manifested itself over the course of centuries, with the time span between the Photian Schism and the Fourth Crusade probably being the most significant period, though by no means inclusive of the entire process.”

All-in-all, regarding our schism. I have always been encouraged that even the most partisan and triumphalist member of our communions are not out there advocating an Ecumenical Council to call the other side to give account and be judged. God willing, the schism will work itself out one day.

Well to paraphrase Homer, it won’t be the Unitarians.

I wonder what Unitarian heaven would look like.

 

[steido01]

Anyone here a fan of that movie (or of the particular scene in that video)?

Too sad to watch more than once.

But that scene makes me want to work at a hospital. I’d like to be better than the poor, sinful, being I am. Do you happen to know a Doctor?

 

[Wannano]

I’m not sure “the Church” will exist at our arrival with Him in heaven, in all aspects. The Sacraments, for example, will no longer be necessary. And the weeds will be separated from the wheat. But yes, the Church in the sense of its true members and Truth itself. Likewise, other Christians who are not in full communion with the One, Catholic and Apostolic Church will enter into heaven, if they are accepted by Him.

Thank you rc for your gracious response to many posts here at Caf. You seem to have a spirit that exemplifies a Christ-like attitude.

Yes, the Church in the sense of its true members…and Truth istself.

Am I wrong in saying that also Christians who are in full communion with the One, Catholic and Apostolic Church will enter into heaven, if they are accepted by Him?

 

[rcwitness]

Thank you rc for your gracious response to many posts here at Caf. You seem to have a spirit that exemplifies a Christ-like attitude.

Thank you Wannano for your kind compliment! I wish you knew all the foolish things I do, and then say the same thing. But I’m sure you would be forgiving.

Am I wrong in saying that also Christians who are in full communion with the One, Catholic and Apostolic Church will enter into heaven, if they are accepted by Him?

Absolutely! I’m afraid many of our Catholic brothers partake in an unworthy manner! Our spirit is willing, but flesh is weak.

 

[benhur]

Hey Ben,

I’ve seen this idea from you several times now. I’d like to express my reaction.

The Church’s doctrine of Infallibility should not be understood as “the Magisterium was correct once, therefore is always correct.”

It is more like this statement from the Vatican Council:

“The doctrine of faith, which God has revealed, has not been proposed as a philosophical discovery to be improved upon by human talent, but has been committed as a Divine deposit to the spouse of Christ, to be faithfully guarded and infallibly interpreted by her”

The Church (Universal), which Jesus built on the Apostles, was given the means to declare matters of faith and morals as bound on earth and heaven. The circumstances of Infallibility have parameters, AND it doesn’t imply that only the Magisterium is able to know the Truth… only that she is protected from error when declaring the Truth under these conditions. And only her decree binds on the whole Church.

Hi rc,

OK but seems like different view of same piece of pie, a perspective. I do like how you say knowing the Truth is not exclusive, but understand the infallible decreeing is.

Blessings

As to the analogy we have bantering about, I would not say the C branch was cutoff and the P grafted in. I would rather say portions of the existing C branch were cutoff, so that P could carry on in growth.The differences between C and P were cutoff. So that the things we all agree on remained/remain. Like some have said, the reformation did not reinvent the wheel.

 

[benhur]

Interesting post, Benhur.

I know there are many Protestants who refuse any adjective in front of “Christian” … it might interest you that, in another recent discussion, a number (I didn’t count, but several) Catholic said that they refuse any adjective in front of “Catholic”.

Hi Peter,
Thank you for the encouragement.

I love the melting pot that the Wedding will reveal. It is liberating to know that despite our differences and hard stands, which are very real, the Lord can not refuse His own, the ecclessia , called out ones, and that is even more real…

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I will just state a few things:

1. Comparable can mean belonging to the same class of things, in which case you are correct that all grapes are comparable. However, comparable can also mean, “of the same quality,” in which case it is perfectly fine to say that some grapes are not comparable to others. I was using the latter meaning.

Hi z,

That is what I thought your meaning was.

1. Yes, it has been decided which plants will be cut down - those plants that are not the original one planted by God.

Of course but that is in the future also. I mean as the Jews were right in calling the Samaritans out as "wrong’, they were wrong in cutting down what they thought was new branch in Jesus. The early church was right in finally cutting down Arianism, I say she was then wrong in trying to cut down a Tyndale or Wycliffe or Huss. I have a feeling what they planted will be around until the Owner returns to decide.

1. Tradition is the paramount determinant, as it is crucial to creating a context conducive to coaxing the desired flavour from the grapes.

While we should praise those who went before us and preserved Truth, let us remember that as they were challenged and prevailed, so should we. They had less tradition to rely on, in fact were forming tradition, based on Truth,Good Soil,and Pruning. While tradition may help determine what is Good Soil/flavor even, Good Soil helps even more help determine what is proper tradition/flavor. Tradition has failed in the past. Being in Good Soil has never failed.

but that doesn’t change the fact that he will cut down the new vines. It is a separate issue.

You began speaking thru Catholic viewpoint that the new vines are in new soil. Do I have you right.? These new vines as I see it can not produce good fruit.They are the tares, planted by the enemy. Do you insist there is good fruit from these new vines ?

1. My emphasis on the original vine was centered on the fact that it was what was planted by the Vintager. It was not a ORAR sentiment, but a sentiment of, “that which God Himself plants and commands us not to separate from is probably the intended and rightful one.” Perhaps we do not agree on this point.

Totally agree. We are to be in Christ, in the Vine, the One and only Original. We can not bear fruit otherwise per the Lord’s words. The O’s and P’s are not new or in new soil, they have born fruit. It is by tradition we know those that are in Christ, baptized into His body the church, are so unto good works and for His glory.

As for P’s, none think themselves not to be of and in the True Vine, even as judged by tradition.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I am pretty sure both our faith traditions believe that in Paradise there will only be the one, holy, catholic, and Apostolic Church that Christ created. It follows then that any other churches, must cease to exist. So, yes, they will be “cut down.”

Hi z’

It is my belief that all churches will cease. The problem is we seem to define church as spiritual, then as a visible hierarchy/ institution. I would say we certainly have visible members, visible leaders.The institution and its offices will cease but the church, the people ,the “called out ones” will not. But we will be a visible kingdom, King and all. So in heaven we certainly will be holy and one and apostolic (our foundation) and universal I suppose though it will cease to separate/differentiate from others.There will be no others.

As the visible nation of Israel as torch bearer was temporarily dispensed during this gentile period,church period, so will the latter, to make for the new Jerusalem and His kingdom. The invisible kingdom, the common thread to all, will be perfectly visible forever.

I liken it to this story that I have shared before. A weary pilgrim sees St Peter at the Pearly Gates ahead in the distance. He calls out, "St. Peter, are there any Lutherans up there?’’ “No” says the apostle. “Any Orthodox up there?”. “No”, again from Peter. "Any Catholics up there?’. "No’’ says Peter, “we don’t go by those names up here”… The befuddled Pilgrim then asks, “Well then who is up there St. Peter?”. “Just those souls who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb”, replies Peter.

Tradition is that, as Yoda would say.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

While we should praise those who went before us and preserved Truth, let us remember that as they were challenged and prevailed, so should we. They had less tradition to rely on, in fact were forming tradition, based on Truth,Good Soil,and Pruning…

Hey ben,

What do you mean by “forming Tradition”? I realize you put “based on Truth, Good Soil…” after it, but men do NOT form Tradition! Tradition is what is “handed down”.

You don’t believe many of the Traditions which the Catholic Church claims are handed down from the Apostolic offices. But you believe in the Traditions written, then confirmed and kept by her. So you do well by the Scriptures.

 

[Peter_J]

Too sad to watch more than once.

But that scene makes me want to work at a hospital. I’d like to be better than the poor, sinful, being I am. Do you happen to know a Doctor?

I don’t think I can help you to become a doctor. But I could try to take the humanity out of you.

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

You began speaking thru Catholic viewpoint that the new vines are in new soil. Do I have you right.?

Yes.

These new vines as I see it can not produce good fruit.They are the tares, planted by the enemy. Do you insist there is good fruit from these new vines ?

They are not the tares. The parable of the tares is about there being people inside the Church that are not living right before God’s eyes, and who will therefore not enter Paradise at the Judgement.

The new vines in my metaphor are those outside the Church. Can there be any good fruit outside the Church?

Here is a metaphor I like:

Christ is the Physician and the Church is the Hospital He established. We have the sacraments, scriptures, patristic writings, liturgy, icons, hagiography, etc. These are the medical manuals, equipment, supplies, medicines, etc. that aid the sick in recovering from the illness of sin. Now, there are people outside the Hospital too - outside the Church. They lack the fullness of the aid found in the Hospital, to various degrees. Maybe some have quacks they see. Maybe some have folk remedies. Maybe some just hope for the best and wing it. All, however, lack the fullness of aid found in the Hospital.

What are we in the Hospital to do? Of course we will invite all to the Hospital. (There is ample room!) Those institutions and traditions outside of the Hospital are not part of the legitimate institution. Does that mean the Hospital produces all healthy people? Of course not. The Hospital is designed to facilitate the healing of the sick if they follow their treatment regime. People are people though, and they are not always faithful to what they should do. When you’re ill, not following your treatment regimen can be a recipe for disaster! Sadly, not 100% of those Hospital patients will recover.

And what about those people outside the Hospital? Will they all necessarily perish? No, I cannot make such a bold claim. We cannot know for sure what will happen to those people outside of the Hospital, but surely survival is not impossible! How will they be healed? We can’t know. The Physician, though, goes where He wills. Perhaps He treats some of those people too, despite their refusal to enter His Hospital. We don’t know. All we know is that all people are supposed to be in the Hospital. He has revealed some knowledge of how things work inside His Hospital, but what happens outside it is a mystery. It is not for us to know. We invite all to the Hospital and oppose those persons and institutions that would draw people away from the Hospital. If someone refuses to come to the Hospital, the most we can do is hope for the best.

At the end of the day: the Physician has mercy on whomsoever He wishes to have mercy.

 

[rcwitness]

Here is a metaphor I like:

Christ is the Physician and the Church is the Hospital He established. We have the sacraments, scriptures, patristic writings, liturgy, icons, hagiography, etc. These are the medical manuals, equipment, supplies, medicines, etc. that aid the sick in recovering from the illness of sin. Now, there are people outside the Hospital too - outside the Church. They lack the fullness of the aid found in the Hospital, to various degrees. Maybe some have quacks they see. Maybe some have folk remedies. Maybe some just hope for the best and wing it. All, however, lack the fullness of aid found in the Hospital.

What are we in the Hospital to do? Of course we will invite all to the Hospital. (There is ample room!) Those institutions and traditions outside of the Hospital are not part of the legitimate institution. Does that mean the Hospital produces all healthy people? Of course not. The Hospital is designed to facilitate the healing of the sick if they follow their treatment regime. People are people though, and they are not always faithful to what they should do. When you’re ill, not following your treatment regimen can be a recipe for disaster! Sadly, not 100% of those Hospital patients will recover.

And what about those people outside the Hospital? Will they all necessarily perish? No, I cannot make such a bold claim. We cannot know for sure what will happen to those people outside of the Hospital, but surely survival is not impossible! How will they be healed? We can’t know. The Physician, though, goes where He wills. Perhaps He treats some of those people too, despite their refusal to enter His Hospital. We don’t know. All we know is that all people are supposed to be in the Hospital. He has revealed some knowledge of how things work inside His Hospital, but what happens outside it is a mystery. It is not for us to know. We invite all to the Hospital and oppose those persons and institutions that would draw people away from the Hospital. If someone refuses to come to the Hospital, the most we can do is hope for the best.

At the end of the day: the Physician has mercy on whomsoever He wishes to have mercy.

I like it…

 

[Wannano]

Yes.

They are not the tares. The parable of the tares is about there being people inside the Church that are not living right before God’s eyes, and who will therefore not enter Paradise at the Judgement.

The new vines in my metaphor are those outside the Church. Can there be any good fruit outside the Church?

Here is a metaphor I like:

Christ is the Physician and the Church is the Hospital He established. We have the sacraments, scriptures, patristic writings, liturgy, icons, hagiography, etc. These are the medical manuals, equipment, supplies, medicines, etc. that aid the sick in recovering from the illness of sin. Now, there are people outside the Hospital too - outside the Church. They lack the fullness of the aid found in the Hospital, to various degrees. Maybe some have quacks they see. Maybe some have folk remedies. Maybe some just hope for the best and wing it. All, however, lack the fullness of aid found in the Hospital.

What are we in the Hospital to do? Of course we will invite all to the Hospital. (There is ample room!) Those institutions and traditions outside of the Hospital are not part of the legitimate institution. Does that mean the Hospital produces all healthy people? Of course not. The Hospital is designed to facilitate the healing of the sick if they follow their treatment regime. People are people though, and they are not always faithful to what they should do. When you’re ill, not following your treatment regimen can be a recipe for disaster! Sadly, not 100% of those Hospital patients will recover.

And what about those people outside the Hospital? Will they all necessarily perish? No, I cannot make such a bold claim. We cannot know for sure what will happen to those people outside of the Hospital, but surely survival is not impossible! How will they be healed? We can’t know. The Physician, though, goes where He wills. Perhaps He treats some of those people too, despite their refusal to enter His Hospital. We don’t know. All we know is that all people are supposed to be in the Hospital. He has revealed some knowledge of how things work inside His Hospital, but what happens outside it is a mystery. It is not for us to know. We invite all to the Hospital and oppose those persons and institutions that would draw people away from the Hospital. If someone refuses to come to the Hospital, the most we can do is hope for the best.

At the end of the day: the Physician has mercy on whomsoever He wishes to have mercy.

The Great Physician I was referred to and am now familiar with is not only a heart surgeon but he will do complete heart transplants. Once the operation is completed he provides 24/7 direct access to free consultation and follow up guaranteed for as long as your heart keeps beating.

 

[rcwitness]

The Great Physician I was referred to and am now familiar with is not only a heart surgeon but he will do complete heart transplants. Once the operation is completed he provides 24/7 direct access to free consultation and follow up guaranteed for as long as your heart keeps beating.

Your insurance premium must be high!

 

[Zabdi_Premjit]

The Great Physician I was referred to and am now familiar with is not only a heart surgeon but he will do complete heart transplants. Once the operation is completed he provides 24/7 direct access to free consultation and follow up guaranteed for as long as your heart keeps beating.

No, I’m sorry. The heart is sick, and it is up to each of us to accept the Physician’s help so it can be nursed to health. We do not get to swap the sick heart for a healthy one in one operation. We have to struggle and work in synergy with God. Take up your cross, you know.

 

[rcwitness]

No, I’m sorry. The heart is sick, and it is up to each of us to accept the Physician’s help so it can be nursed to health. We do not get to swap the sick heart for a healthy one in one operation. We have to struggle and work in synergy with God. Take up your cross, you know.

You must not have ObamaCare?

Ezekiel 36:26*

AnewheartI will give you, and anewspirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh theheartof stone and give you aheartof flesh.

Ezekiel 11:19

And I will give them oneheart, and put anewspirit within them; I will take the stonyheartout of their flesh and give them aheart*of flesh,

Ezekiel 18:31

Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves anewheartand anew*spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?

 

[Wannano]

Your insurance premium must be high!

Even though it is free it costs you everything!

 

[rcwitness]

Even though it is free it costs you everything!

Yes, that’s the irony! And because He is in you… and He gives all. But we are so reluctant!

 

[Wannano]

Yes, that’s the irony! And because He is in you… and He gives all. But we are so reluctant!

I had 1to submit my pride and self sufficiency two years ago to a physical triple bypass. Turned out one side was 100% plugged and the other 90%. And 70% down the middle. The surgeon now says I have the heart of a 20 year old. I now feel great and want to live my remaining life to the fullest.

Years ago I received a new spiritual heart, I have also submitted to several maitenance operations and am living the abundant life inasmuch as I submit my will to His.