Why don't we use the Baltimore Catechism anymore?

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Ridgerunner said:
Some historical writer, not sure who, opined that, as compared to Renaissance people, for example, moderns neither sin well nor repent well.

If one reads histories of the Renaissance period, one can see that. People most assuredly sinned with gusto. But they also repented with gusto. It’s breathtaking to read about some of their sinning, but it’s also astonishing to read about the piety of some of those very people, and virtue so heroic we rarely witness its like today.

One sometimes is inclined to consider Jesus’ words “…be you warm or be you cold, but if you are lukewarm I will spit you out of my mouth” Chesterton, I think it was, said “The Catholic Church is for saints and sinners. For the merely respectable, the Anglican Church will do.”

Can one truly “sin well” or “repent well” if one knows little of either? I have raised five children and now have grandchildren in school. I have been almost uniformly disappointed at the religious instruction precisely because it doesn’t draw clear distinctions. It doesn’t really quite instruct. It’s vague and fluffy about things that ought to be crystal clear.

What, after all, is “sinning well”. Personally, I think it’s acknowledging it. We are so subjective and relativist today that we don’t like acknowledging the evil we do. We make excuses for it and try to find some priest or nun or politician who will help us in doing that. Why not just own up to it? If I’m using artificial birth control, I might as well simply admit that I’m sinning. Maybe I’m not going to repent today, but I have no moral business making excuses for it. Maybe I’ll try to repent in some way; at least try. But outright denial is, in my mind, the deceit of the tempter.

Maybe I’ll take something from another wrongfully. I ought to simply admit that I’m stealing, period. No “it’s a class thing” or “he didn’t come by it honestly” or “I deserve it”. No, if I’m stealing, I’m stealing. Maybe what I need to do is resolve not to steal again, to make recompense and confess. If I do that, I have “sinned well” and “repented well”.

We now have “Catholics for a Free Choice” and “LCWR” and “nuns on the bus” and all sorts of horrible organizations founded on temporizing with evil. Did I cooperate in an abortion? Well, if I did, I did. No excuses. No sociological nonsense about how I aided the woman in “getting on with her life” or “preventing illegitimacy” or “doing the kind thing”. I killed. I just plain killed. My better course is to confess it, to resolve never to do it again and to carry that memory of guilt as a reminder to be a better man; perhaps to help preserve life or to make a woman realize that pregnancy is not the end of her life. If I do that, I have “sinned well” and “repented well”.

The sting of conscience is a grace, not a curse. We need it.

I believe the Baltimore Catechism stood for clarity. It stood for knowing, not lying to oneself. It taught us to seek mercy. Ste Therese of Lisieux recognized that not a single one of us merits heaven. Every one of us has hell coming. We do. What’s the cure for that? Throwing oneself on God’s mercy, that’s what, and the first step is owning up to what we did; accepting the truth.

She had an interesting take on our judgments. She said that at the point of death we are presented with every sin we ever committed in its full horror and with total clarity. It’s terrible to see it. Jesus then offers us his love and his forgiveness, but we can’t accept it if we won’t admit how dependent we are on it. We either accept his love and forgiveness and join with him, or we spit at Him because He has wounded our pride; our self-justification, wrap ourselves in a cocoon of our own self-worship and hate Him for all eternity.

Perhaps the nuns of yore did not sufficiently emphasize that love and that mercy. But it’s not the fault of the Catechism itself if they did not. It’s in there. If our teachers did not explore and emphasize it sufficiently, they did us, and the Catechism itself, a disservice.

But the “fix” for the failings is not self-deception.
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Beautiful post Ridgerunner.
 
The point is, and this may have been stated already, whether we use the BC, or the CCC or whatever other C, we are called to be like Jesus, right? What did Jesus do? He knew there was no “one size fits all” approach to evangelism. As someone said, someone struggling with addiction knows about how bad off they are a lot of the time, what they need to hear about is God’s love. The self righteous man in the pew next to you thinking he’s just fine because he goes to Mass on Sundays? Hell. It’s about where people are in the journey and meeting them there.
 
buzzoff1031 said:
The point is, and this may have been stated already, whether we use the BC, or the CCC or whatever other C, we are called to be like Jesus, right? What did Jesus do? He knew there was no “one size fits all” approach to evangelism. As someone said, someone struggling with addiction knows about how bad off they are a lot of the time, what they need to hear about is God’s love. The self righteous man in the pew next to you thinking he’s just fine because he goes to Mass on Sundays? Hell. It’s about where people are in the journey and meeting them there.
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I’m afraid hell is about a lot more than where people are in the journey. Hell is a very real place and without the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and his Saving Blood, we are all headed there.

I wonder if you and others have a problem with the Act of Contrition: “Oh my God, I am heartily sorry for offending thee and I destest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell.” This is most definitely not talking about “where people are in the journey.” Do you think we should throw this out?
 
Brooklyn said:
I’m afraid hell is about a lot more than where people are in the journey. Hell is a very real place and without the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and his Saving Blood, we are all headed there.

I wonder if you and others have a problem with the Act of Contrition: “Oh my God, I am heartily sorry for offending thee and I destest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell.” This is most definitely not talking about “where people are in the journey.” Do you think we should throw this out?
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One point: my original suggestion was that witness from an addict could give us a foretaste of hell and the thought of separation from God, and that this witness could make a good teaching moment to say that 1) hell (separation from God and the emptiness it causes) is very real, and 2) it is possible on Earth to experience it, but it is not too late to escape it, and 3) once dead it can become permanent.

I suspect that it may be more effective than theoretical fire-and-brimstone sermons, especially of accompanied by witness of the sense of God’s love, mercy, acceptance and freedom that one feels when one has shaken off the addiction.
 
OraLabora said:
One point: my original suggestion was that witness from an addict could give us a foretaste of hell and the thought of separation from God, and that this witness could make a good teaching moment to say that 1) hell (separation from God and the emptiness it causes) is very real, and 2) it is possible on Earth to experience it, but it is not too late to escape it, and 3) once dead it can become permanent.

I suspect that it may be more effective than theoretical fire-and-brimstone sermons, especially of accompanied by witness of the sense of God’s love, mercy, acceptance and freedom that one feels when one has shaken off the addiction.
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“Theoretical fire-and-brimstone sermons”??? That’s my point - hell is not theoretical, and as bad as life is here on earth, it never comes close to the pains of hell. No matter had bad things are on earth, God is still present. No matter how low we are on this earth, God’s mercy is still available to us. There is no mercy in hell. In hell, God is completely absent, that is what makes it hell. There is nothing “theoretical” about hell. No, I don’t agree that it is possible to experience hell on earth because God’s mercy is always available to us on earth. His mercy is not available to us in hell. Those in the worst conditions imaginable on earth can still feel God’s mercy.

Once we are dead, it is permanent.
 
Brooklyn said:
“Theoretical fire-and-brimstone sermons”??? That’s my point - hell is not theoretical, and as bad as life is here on earth, it never comes close to the pains of hell. No matter had bad things are on earth, God is still present.
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Unless it is made very real for some people, it is nothing more than a theoretical concept to them.

I guess we agree to disagree. I am not into fire-and-brimstone teaching. Yes hell is real, but I still think one can get a foretaste of it on Earth from someone who has been there.

I can certainly remember very well feeling separated from God when I went through my own dark night. I can assure you that it concentrated my mind a lot more than hearing a sermon. Realizing that I would feel at least as bad for eternity can do that for you.
 
OraLabora said:
Unless it is made very real for some people, it is nothing more than a theoretical concept to them.

I guess we agree to disagree. I am not into fire-and-brimstone teaching. Yes hell is real, but I still think one can get a foretaste of it on Earth from someone who has been there.

I can certainly remember very well feeling separated from God when I went through my own dark night. I can assure you that it concentrated my mind a lot more than hearing a sermon. Realizing that I would feel at least as bad for eternity can do that for you.
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I’m going to need to disagree with you on this as well, without agreeing to anything. Until a person has gone through a dark night whilst being scourged, burnt beyond recognition, beaten, insulted and kept on a hairline boarder of life and death whilst suffering severe sleep deprivation, they can’t say they have even a small notion of what Hell is. Even the person who goes through all this doesn’t have a clue. The saints say, for instance, that it’s better to suffer every pain for a lifetime than spend a day in Purgatory. What’s Hell by contrast?

Considering what the saints say about Hell (or even purgatory) and the fact that Jesus spoke about it much more than He did about Heaven, it’s no uncertain concept to prance around. It’s Hell. All it takes is a mortal sin without repentance to send us there for eternity. The only attitude due towards it is one of extreme danger, anything less is even more dangerous.
 
Darran said:
I’m going to need to disagree with you on this as well, without agreeing to anything. Until a person has gone through a dark night whilst being scourged, burnt beyond recognition, beaten, insulted and kept on a hairline boarder of life and death whilst suffering severe sleep deprivation, they can’t say they have even a small notion of what Hell is. Even the person who goes through all this doesn’t have a clue. The saints say, for instance, that it’s better to suffer every pain for a lifetime than spend a day in Purgatory. What’s Hell by contrast?
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John Paul II on Heaven, Hell and Purgatory

Benedict XVI on hell

Benedict XVI on hell
Darran said:
Jesus spoke about it much more than He did about Heaven, it’s no uncertain concept to prance around.
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This is quite simply untrue. Using a plain-English Bible version, in a keyword search I come up with 11 verses related to hell in the Gospels, and I come up with 142 verses mentioning heaven.
 
This paragraph especially from JP2:
"“Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — **must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6). **
This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: “Father, accept this offering from your whole family … save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen”.”
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Brooklyn said:
“Theoretical fire-and-brimstone sermons”??? That’s my point - hell is not theoretical, and as bad as life is here on earth, it never comes close to the pains of hell. No matter had bad things are on earth, God is still present. No matter how low we are on this earth, God’s mercy is still available to us. There is no mercy in hell. In hell, God is completely absent, that is what makes it hell. There is nothing “theoretical” about hell. No, I don’t agree that it is possible to experience hell on earth because God’s mercy is always available to us on earth. His mercy is not available to us in hell. Those in the worst conditions imaginable on earth can still feel God’s mercy.

Once we are dead, it is permanent.
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Please don’t tell us what hell is like.

There are people on these forums who have had their only child die of cancer and had to pick out a coffin and burial plot two weeks before the child was even dead, while the child was at home with a hospice nurse.

There are people here who were addicted to pot, cocaine, smack, porn, cigarettes and gambling for decades - twenty or thirty years. They tried everything to stop, but couldnt help themselves, and it completely wrecked their lives and the lives of everyone they touched for decades.

There are people on these forums who have had perfect suburban lifestyles and one day the husband or wife announced that they were leaving, moving in with someone else, and left them to raise the kids by themselves. I know a guy who one week after he was diagnosed with lymphoma, his wife announced she was lesbian, took their son and moved in with another woman. She had already emptied the bank account, cashed in the 401k and bought a Range Rover.

My confrimation sponsor’s father and brother were tied up and shot in the back of the head execution style in a random home invasion. Every five years she travels from Atlanta to Florida, walks through a line of news reporters with their cameras, and lives it all again as she testifies at their parole hearings.

There is a man here on CAF whom we all know who buried his wife and child on the same day, and walked out of the Church behind the two caskets holding the hands of his other two children.

Somewhere right now is a 60 year old lying awake in a federal penitentiary, thinking about the crime he committed 40 years ago, knowing that he will never get out, that he will die in jail.

Somewhere right now, in a hospital room at Memorial Sloan Kettering or Cleveland Clinic or St. Jude Medical Center, a mother and father are watching the heart rate of their daughter drop from 70 to 40 as her breathing gets shallower and shallower. Tonight the husband will take his wife home with an empty car seat in the back of the car. They will wake up tomorrow and take the pictures of their daughter off the mantle, put them in a box, and bring them to the funeral home for the funeral.

Please don’t tell us what hell is like. Please don’t speak about seperation from God and mercy and the worst conditions imaginable on earth. Please don’t do that. It’s extremely insulting when you do that.

I am going to pray tonight that you never experience any of these things.

-Tim-
 
As created beings, we can and do experience heartbreaking tragedy as part of our human existence. Since we have been created, we have experienced great loss, hardship and despair.

The truth is we don’t know much about people’s lives on here and the pains that different people have faced.

The point is that those are all precursors to the greatest loss of all, the loss of heaven.

And we want to avoid that more than anything.

Pain on earth is temporal. The pains of hell (whatever form that takes) are eternal.

I want to avoid hell not only because I don’t want to suffer but because I do not want to be eternally separated from HIM. That is the greatest pain.
 
TimothyH said:
Please don’t tell us what hell is like. Please don’t speak about seperation from God and mercy and the worst conditions imaginable on earth. Please don’t do that. It’s extremely insulting when you do that.

I am going to pray tonight that you never experience any of these things.

-Tim-
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Your remarks are tangential to the debate. Essentially you are saying ‘People have tough lives on earth, so don’t speak about Hell on a Traditional Catholic Forum’?. That does not follow.

Hell is eternal separation from God and eternal torment of the worst kind, because it is not leavened by God’s graces, His Mercy and Hope of Heaven or at least, hope of an end. Earthly torments end when the body dies.

People in Hell rage, despair and are tormented by the other damned. Hell, in my opinion, could simply be Existence minus God’s grace: no goodness in anyone there to hold back base passions. Everything evil in us and the fallen angels is therefore made manifest, without check, forever. Because they know they are damned and because they are spirits, what they think becomes real.

People need to be reminded of this regularly.
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
Your remarks are tangential to the debate. Essentially you are saying ‘People have tough lives on earth, so don’t speak about Hell on a Traditional Catholic Forum’?. That does not follow.
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That’s not what he said. What he said basically was don’t lecture (talk down to us) about hell, and don’t insult our intelligence by telling us what you think hell is like if you haven’t had these experiences. The people he described, and to a somewhat lesser extent myself, already have a foretaste of what hell feels like.

What hell is actually like (fire, separation, pain, cold, whater) we only know allegorically. All that we can say for certain, is that it is eternal and it is awful.

What hell can feel like on Earth, we know experientially. Lecturing us about it does not add anything to the debate that we don’t already know. Which is why I am insisting that hearing from someone who has experienced, might be more useful to someone who hasn’t experienced it, as a teaching tool to avoid it.
 
TimothyH said:
Please don’t tell us what hell is like.

There are people on these forums who have had their only child die of cancer and had to pick out a coffin and burial plot two weeks before the child was even dead, while the child was at home with a hospice nurse.

There are people here who were addicted to pot, cocaine, smack, porn, cigarettes and gambling for decades - twenty or thirty years. They tried everything to stop, but couldnt help themselves, and it completely wrecked their lives and the lives of everyone they touched for decades.

There are people on these forums who have had perfect suburban lifestyles and one day the husband or wife announced that they were leaving, moving in with someone else, and left them to raise the kids by themselves. I know a guy who one week after he was diagnosed with lymphoma, his wife announced she was lesbian, took their son and moved in with another woman. She had already emptied the bank account, cashed in the 401k and bought a Range Rover.

My confrimation sponsor’s father and brother were tied up and shot in the back of the head execution style in a random home invasion. Every five years she travels from Atlanta to Florida, walks through a line of news reporters with their cameras, and lives it all again as she testifies at their parole hearings.

There is a man here on CAF whom we all know who buried his wife and child on the same day, and walked out of the Church behind the two caskets holding the hands of his other two children.

Somewhere right now is a 60 year old lying awake in a federal penitentiary, thinking about the crime he committed 40 years ago, knowing that he will never get out, that he will die in jail.

Somewhere right now, in a hospital room at Memorial Sloan Kettering or Cleveland Clinic or St. Jude Medical Center, a mother and father are watching the heart rate of their daughter drop from 70 to 40 as her breathing gets shallower and shallower. Tonight the husband will take his wife home with an empty car seat in the back of the car. They will wake up tomorrow and take the pictures of their daughter off the mantle, put them in a box, and bring them to the funeral home for the funeral.

Please don’t tell us what hell is like. Please don’t speak about seperation from God and mercy and the worst conditions imaginable on earth. Please don’t do that. It’s extremely insulting when you do that.

I am going to pray tonight that you never experience any of these things.

-Tim-
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And in all of those horrific instances that you mentioned, God was still there, pouring out his His Mercy and Love. Michael Voris recently did programs on the torture that Catholic priests and bishops underwent in Communist Romania, horrific beyond words. For the priests who survived it, many actually went back to these terrible prisons and thanked God for what they experienced because it brought them closer to God than they ever thought possible. Suffering is what unites us to Christ and His Saving Sacrifice. All of the great saints suffered immeasurably. They didn’t consider it hell.

Hell does not mean just suffering. Hell means separation from God - complete and total. That means total absence of God’s love and mercy. No one has ever suffered more than our Lord and our Lady at Christ’s passion. Does that mean they were in hell? No, it means they suffered., There is a huge difference.

I don’t think I’m insulting anyone when I say that despite the great suffering they have gone through,God’s love and mercy is always there, and in fact is even more available when we do suffer.

I would hope that as a Catholic you and others would understand that suffering of and by itself does not mean God has abandoned us. There is no way we will enter into the Kingdom of God without suffering. Christ told us to take up our cross. That doesn’t mean fun and games, sunshine and lollipops. We have a fallen nature and live in a fallen world. That necessarily means we will suffer. That does not mean we are in hell.
 
TimothyH said:
Please don’t tell us what hell is like.

There are people on these forums who have had their only child die of cancer and had to pick out a coffin and burial plot two weeks before the child was even dead, while the child was at home with a hospice nurse.

There are people here who were addicted to pot, cocaine, smack, porn, cigarettes and gambling for decades - twenty or thirty years. They tried everything to stop, but couldnt help themselves, and it completely wrecked their lives and the lives of everyone they touched for decades.

There are people on these forums who have had perfect suburban lifestyles and one day the husband or wife announced that they were leaving, moving in with someone else, and left them to raise the kids by themselves. I know a guy who one week after he was diagnosed with lymphoma, his wife announced she was lesbian, took their son and moved in with another woman. She had already emptied the bank account, cashed in the 401k and bought a Range Rover.

My confrimation sponsor’s father and brother were tied up and shot in the back of the head execution style in a random home invasion. Every five years she travels from Atlanta to Florida, walks through a line of news reporters with their cameras, and lives it all again as she testifies at their parole hearings.

There is a man here on CAF whom we all know who buried his wife and child on the same day, and walked out of the Church behind the two caskets holding the hands of his other two children.

Somewhere right now is a 60 year old lying awake in a federal penitentiary, thinking about the crime he committed 40 years ago, knowing that he will never get out, that he will die in jail.

Somewhere right now, in a hospital room at Memorial Sloan Kettering or Cleveland Clinic or St. Jude Medical Center, a mother and father are watching the heart rate of their daughter drop from 70 to 40 as her breathing gets shallower and shallower. Tonight the husband will take his wife home with an empty car seat in the back of the car. They will wake up tomorrow and take the pictures of their daughter off the mantle, put them in a box, and bring them to the funeral home for the funeral.

Please don’t tell us what hell is like. Please don’t speak about seperation from God and mercy and the worst conditions imaginable on earth. Please don’t do that. It’s extremely insulting when you do that.

I am going to pray tonight that you never experience any of these things.

-Tim-
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Thank you.
 
TrueLight said:
What does this paragraph say to you? I start out knowing what it’s saying at the beginning. By the end, I have no idea what it is saying.
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"“Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).
This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: “Father, accept this offering from your whole family … save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen”.”
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I’m not sure that I could add any more clarity to this by paraphrasing or interpreting. JP2 is an extremely concise and thorough thinker. ( btw If you want to see thorough exposition of theology read TOB). But here’s what I take from it:

In the context of catechesis and evangelization, the central focus should be the proclamation of Christs victory over sin. This hope should prevail in our message, and is in fact “refelected” in the liturgical tradition of the Church. The thought of hell needs to be expressed in a holistic way, not in a way that spreads anxiety and despair. We cannot go about our spiritual lives simply avoiding and hell and scaring others with it, or pretending to know their destiny.
 
Brooklyn said:
And in all of those horrific instances that you mentioned, God was still there, pouring out his His Mercy and Love. Michael Voris recently did programs on the torture that Catholic priests and bishops underwent in Communist Romania, horrific beyond words. For the priests who survived it, many actually went back to these terrible prisons and thanked God for what they experienced because it brought them closer to God than they ever thought possible. Suffering is what unites us to Christ and His Saving Sacrifice. All of the great saints suffered immeasurably. They didn’t consider it hell.

Hell does not mean just suffering. Hell means separation from God - complete and total. That means total absence of God’s love and mercy. No one has ever suffered more than our Lord and our Lady at Christ’s passion. Does that mean they were in hell? No, it means they suffered., There is a huge difference.

I don’t think I’m insulting anyone when I say that despite the great suffering they have gone through,God’s love and mercy is always there, and in fact is even more available when we do suffer.

I would hope that as a Catholic you and others would understand that suffering of and by itself does not mean God has abandoned us. There is no way we will enter into the Kingdom of God without suffering. Christ told us to take up our cross. That doesn’t mean fun and games, sunshine and lollipops. We have a fallen nature and live in a fallen world. That necessarily means we will suffer. That does not mean we are in hell.
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For many who have experienced great and profound suffering, you dont feel God’s love and mercy.

You feel utterly abandoned, the deepest pit of nothingness. A black black void devoid of anything.

It’s dark. It’s profound. It can last for days, weeks, months, years, or in my case, decades.

Decades when there was no consolation, no relief, no nothing. Just pain. Just suffering…

Is all of that distinct from the pains of Hell? Perhaps. But since I have never experienced the afterlife yet, it’s the closest thing I have to compare it too.
 
Marie5890 said:
For many who have experienced great and profound suffering, you dont feel God’s love and mercy.

You feel utterly abandoned, the deepest pit of nothingness. A black black void devoid of anything.

It’s dark. It’s profound. It can last for days, weeks, months, years, or in my case, decades.

Decades when there was no consolation, no relief, no nothing. Just pain. Just suffering…

Is all of that distinct from the pains of Hell? Perhaps. But since I have never experienced the afterlife yet, it’s the closest thing I have to compare it too.
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Here is what one great saint, St. Bernadette of Lourdes, said about suffering:

I must die to myself continually and accept trials without complaining. I work, I suffer and I love with no other witness than his heart. Anyone who is not prepared to suffer all for the Beloved and to do his will in all things is not worthy of the sweet name of Friend, **for here below, **Love without suffering does not exist.

I shall spend every moment loving. One who loves does not notice her trials; or perhaps more accurately, she is able to love them.

Again, I can only repeat, suffering of and by itself does not mean hell. Hell is much worse than “just” suffering. Hell means absence of God’s Love and Mercy. There have been moments in all of our lives when we thought we may have experienced the absence of God’s love, but we never actually have. Divine Mercy teaches us that. But those in hell experience the total absence of God and His Love and Mercy every moment and for all eternity. That goes far beyond any suffering any of us can ever experience while on this earth.
 
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