Why don't we use the Baltimore Catechism anymore?

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Brooklyn said:
Here is what one great saint, St. Bernadette of Lourdes, said about suffering:

I must die to myself continually and accept trials without complaining. I work, I suffer and I love with no other witness than his heart. Anyone who is not prepared to suffer all for the Beloved and to do his will in all things is not worthy of the sweet name of Friend, **for here below, **Love without suffering does not exist.

I shall spend every moment loving. One who loves does not notice her trials; or perhaps more accurately, she is able to love them.

Again, I can only repeat, suffering of and by itself does not mean hell. Hell is much worse than “just” suffering. Hell means absence of God’s Love and Mercy. There have been moments in all of our lives when we thought we may have experienced the absence of God’s love, but we never actually have. Divine Mercy teaches us that. **But those in hell experience the total absence of God and His Love and Mercy every moment and for all eternity. ** That goes far beyond any suffering any of us can ever experience while on this earth.
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Devil’s Advocate time; what of those who feel this way while on Earth? What if they only experience the first half of footprints int he sand, where they feel it is only their own footprints and they feel alone?
 
Melchior said:
Devil’s Advocate time; what of those who feel this way while on Earth? What if they only experience the first half of footprints int he sand, where they feel it is only their own footprints and they feel alone?
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As I said, we may feel that God has abandoned us - that is what the dark night of the soul is all about - but the reality is that in our suffering, we are closer to God than in good times of pleasure and happiness. Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta went through 50 years of never feeling the presence of God. Does that mean she was experiencing hell? Hardly.

Hell is the reality of the absence of God. None of us, no matter what depths we sink to in this world, have ever experienced the complete and total absence of God while we are still alive. The more we suffer, the closer we are to Christ. That can be tremendously painful, but that is not hell.
 
Brooklyn said:
As I said, we may feel that God has abandoned us - that is what the dark night of the soul is all about - but the reality is that in our suffering, we are closer to God than in good times of pleasure and happiness. Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta went through 50 years of never feeling the presence of God. Does that mean she was experiencing hell? Hardly.

Hell is the reality of the absence of God. None of us, no matter what depths we sink to in this world, have ever experienced the complete and total absence of God while we are still alive. The more we suffer, the closer we are to Christ. That can be tremendously painful, but that is not hell.
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In the case of Blessed Teresa, we could possibly say that Earth was her hell, since she will never go to the real thing.
 
OraLabora said:
That’s not what he said. What he said basically was don’t lecture (talk down to us) about hell, and don’t insult our intelligence by telling us what you think hell is like if you haven’t had these experiences. The people he described, and to a somewhat lesser extent myself, already have a foretaste of what hell feels like.

What hell is actually like (fire, separation, pain, cold, whater) we only know allegorically. All that we can say for certain, is that it is eternal and it is awful.

What hell can feel like on Earth, we know experientially. Lecturing us about it does not add anything to the debate that we don’t already know. Which is why I am insisting that hearing from someone who has experienced, might be more useful to someone who hasn’t experienced it, as a teaching tool to avoid it.
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Thank you.

-Tim-
 
Melchior said:
In the case of Blessed Teresa, we could possibly say that Earth was her hell, since she will never go to the real thing.
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No, earth was Blessed Mother Teresa’s purgatory - HUGE difference. Blessed Mother Teresa never experienced hell - the complete and total absence of God. We should all have the goal to experience our purgatory here on this earth so that we, like Mother Teresa, can go straight to heaven. But that means a whole lot of suffering, and again, that does not mean hell.
 
Brooklyn said:
No, earth was Blessed Mother Teresa’s purgatory - HUGE difference. Blessed Mother Teresa never experienced hell - the complete and total absence of God. We should all have the goal to experience our purgatory here on this earth so that we, like Mother Teresa, can go straight to heaven. But that means a whole lot of suffering, and again, that does not mean hell.
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Maybe not much of a difference at all, if we use the terminology you just used.

“It is the same fire that torments the reprobate in hell, and the just in purgatory. The least pain in purgatory,’ he says, “surpasses the greatest suffering in this life. ’ Nothing but the eternal duration makes the fire of hell more terrible than that of purgatory.”
  • Aquinas.
“Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed.”
  • Aquinas quoted Gregory, and Gregory was quoting Augustine.
 
Brooklyn said:
So you don’t agree that suffering of and by itself does not constitute hell? You believe that suffering is the same as hell, which is the absence of God?
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I believe that I can write no more because I have seen things that make my writings like straw."

-Tim-
 
Melchior said:
Maybe not much of a difference at all, if we use the terminology you just used.
“It is the same fire that torments the reprobate in hell, and the just in purgatory. The least pain in purgatory,’ he says, “surpasses the greatest suffering in this life. ’ Nothing but the eternal duration makes the fire of hell more terrible than that of purgatory.”
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Brooklyn said:
Many of the saints have told us that the suffering in purgatory surpasses any suffering we experience here on earth. Purgatory is about about purging our sins (hence the word Purgatory) Those in Purgatory are assured of salvation. We are told that the Blessed Mother visits those in Purgatory to comfort them. I have read that while the suffering is immense in Purgatory, they do experience relief every time a Mass is said for them and for the entire length of the Mass. We can and in fact are obligated to pray for those in Purgatory and help them gain an earlier release.

None of this is true for those in hell. There is never a reprieve from their suffering. We cannot pray for those in hell. They are not being purged of their sins. They are experience the complete and total absence of God and complete lack of hope. That is why in Dante in his Divine Comedy wrote about the sign for hell: “Abandon hope all ye who enter here.” The fire may be the same for purgatory and hell, but the outcome is completely different.
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Oh sure, as soon as I use Aquinas in an argument now is the time someone chooses not to follow what he’s writing 😃

They may get relief from our Mother, but Augustine said that the fires were the same, and Aquinas & Gregory saw fit to back him up. That’s some pretty heavy reinforcement.

I’m on the fence on the whole issue. I need to take it to prayer and spend more time thinking about it. At this point I’m mostly waxing philosophy.
 
Melchior said:
Oh sure, as soon as I use Aquinas in an argument now is the time someone chooses not to follow what he’s writing 😃

They may get relief from our Mother, but Augustine said that the fires were the same, and Aquinas & Gregory saw fit to back him up. That’s some pretty heavy reinforcement.

I’m on the fence on the whole issue. I need to take it to prayer and spend more time thinking about it. At this point I’m mostly waxing philosophy.
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Fair enough. But do think about the fact that hell is not of and by itself about suffering. Hell is about the complete and total absence of God, the loss of all hope, utter darkness. Those in hell suffer immeasurably, but it is not redemptive as the suffering on earth and purgatory is. Those in hell have chosen to separate themselves from God and his Mercy for all eternity. None of us who are still alive have experienced this. God can still be found on this earth, even in what we call the most “hellish” places. In fact, God is more to be found in suffering than in the pleasures we experience.

Suffering of and by itself does not constitute hell.
 
Brooklyn said:
Fair enough. But do think about the fact that hell is not of and by itself about suffering. Hell is about the complete and total absence of God, the loss of all hope, utter darkness. Those in hell suffer immeasurably, but it is not redemptive as the suffering on earth and purgatory is. ** Those in hell have chosen to separate themselves from God and his Mercy for all eternity.** None of us who are still alive have experienced this. God can still be found on this earth, even in what we call the most “hellish” places. In fact, God is more to be found in suffering than in the pleasures we experience.

Suffering of and by itself does not constitute hell.
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The bolded is key to this discussion. Is it possible for someone to separate themselves from God while on Earth, or their hearts be hardened?

There’s a possibility both you and Tim could be right, with the lone distinction being the length of time (with Hell being forever).
 
Melchior said:
The bolded is key to this discussion. Is it possible for someone to separate themselves from God while on Earth, or their hearts be hardened?

There’s a possibility both you and Tim could be right, with the lone distinction being the length of time (with Hell being forever).
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The reason the Catholic church never says with conviction that someone is in hell is because Christ offers us redemption right up to the moment we die. The good thief on the cross is the prime example of that. Admittedly, it is very difficult for a hardened sinner to repent at the last moment of his life, but it is possible. Christ never stops extending his mercy and forgiveness to us while we are still alive. That is why our Lady of Fatima said that we must always pray for sinners. She said that many sinners are lost because no one prays for them. While there is life there is always hope. St. Monica never stopped praying for her son, St. Augustine, even when he was the most hardened sinner. As a result, we have one of the greatest saints ever, all due to St. Monica’s prayers and Christ’s redemptive mercy. And the same can be said for all of us to one extent or another.

There is no hope of any kind in hell. God’s mercy has been completely taken away from those in hell. We cannot pray for those in hell. They are lost for eternity. That is why I say the suffering on earth cannot be compared to hell.
 
Brooklyn said:
There is no hope of any kind in hell. God’s mercy has been completely taken away from those in hell. We cannot pray for those in hell. They are lost for eternity. That is why I say the suffering on earth cannot be compared to hell.
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Yet the premier Father of the Church compared Purgatory, a temporary place, to Hell.
 
Melchior said:
Yet the premier Father of the Church compared Purgatory, a temporary place, to Hell.
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No, he compared the suffering and said they were similar. But as I have pointed out, the suffering in purgatory is redemptive, the suffering in hell is without hope. God is present in the suffering in purgatory. He is nowhere to be found in the sufferings of hell. It’s like the difference between someone being cut open for a life-saving operation and someone else being cut open and knifed to death. The suffering may be the same, but the results are totally different.
 
We’re kinda getting off topic.
In catechesis, how do we present hell? How important is the forcefull presentation of hell for the conversion of others? Is fear and anxiety effective in evangelization? I think that in light of the fact that…

as Brooklyn says, no one can give a true testimony of what hell is like…
and as the Church says, we don’t even know who is there or why…

why should we emphasize it? Hell and damnation are simply not the Christian story. Salvation and redemption are the Christian story. By definition.

And since we are on the Catholic Tradition forum,we should look to Catholic Tradition with reverence and obedience. Catholic Tradition starting with scripture does not emphasize damnnation. The great spiritual writers do not emphasize it. Our two most recent popes, as posted earlier have a positive and hopeful view. What I don’t understand is the notion some have that authentic traditional Catholicism contains dark, punitive, and damning elements. It does not. So why the desire to hear about it now? It seems to me that an anger and resentment is exposed in this desire to have people hear about their damnation. as though our homilies should remind people and punish them for the deficiencies we see in them.

And, it does not work. Never has, never will. It’s not the message Christ gave to us.
 
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