Why don't you think it's not obvious to Protestants that their bible is not the bible that contains the fullness of the inspired written Word of God?

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OK, I stand corrected.

To be honest I was never aware of Luther’s views on the Apocrypha.

Actually I know very little about Luther apart from the fact that he was once an Augustinian Monk and by the Spirit of God realised he was a filthy sinner that deserved to go to hell and that he could only get right with God by accepting Christ’s righteousness and not his own. He tried to reform the ‘church’ but found it impossible (I was going to say something else but I have already received an infraction) so he came out as commanded to do so by Paul in Corinthians and John in Revelation.

All I have is my King James Bible and the Holy Ghost!
Well, I am a filthy sinner who deserves Hell as well. But Jesus Christ died for my sins and will bring me to everlasting life and salvation if I believe in Him. take up my cross daily and follow Him.

And the Church (the Catholic Church), as all endevours of men, is in constant need of reform. Both in the first century and today!

I am certain that God would not want the chaos and division of all these denominations.
 
First,m do not make personal insults. That is not kind and is certainly not Christ-like. It is a shortcut to getting your account here banned.

Many of the minor prophets whose books are part of the “Protestant” bible lived well after the death of Zechariah and the end of the periods covered by Chronicles.

Therefore, you certainly do have a problem if you are using that as a measure of what should and should not be in the Old Testament. The books I mentioned, as well as several others, came generations after the murder of Zechariah.

You still, for the forth time, have not explained what authority you have
to declare what should and should not be in the canon of Scripture.
Where was the personal insult?

I simply asked you a question?

I guess being called a hell bound heretic by one of your brothers is OK.

Well, actually it is-if he believes that is the truth then it is his God given duty to warn me!

Furthermore, as far as I am aware I have NOT insulted anyone personally all I am attacking is your beliefs, not you personally-there is a difference.
 
So what you are saying is that you are not willing to listen to people more educated than you? (The part about God is a silly canard and I will ignore the bait.)
You don’t know me from a bar of soap.

Are you not insulting me by suggesting I am less educated than those posting on this thread.

I simply said scholarship does not impress when it comes to Spiritual matters!
 
Where was the personal insult?

I simply asked you a question?

I guess being called a hell bound heretic by one of your brothers is OK.

Well, actually it is-if he believes that is the truth then it is his God given duty to warn me!

Furthermore, as far as I am aware I have NOT insulted anyone personally all I am attacking is your beliefs, not you personally-there is a difference.
If someone called you that name, please use the “report problem post” button in the upper right corner of every post.

I do not want you or anyone else to get banned. This forum works best when people post when emotions are not high. If you feel the heat rising, perhaps it is time to take a break.

Believe it or not, I am your brother in Christ.

May God’s blessings be upon you and May God grant you His peace.
 
You don’t know me from a bar of soap.

Are you not insulting me by suggesting I am less educated than those posting on this thread.

I simply said scholarship does not impress when it comes to Spiritual matters!
I did not mean to imply that you are less educated than those posting on this thread. Rather you, like me, are probably have something to learn from the centuries of scholars in the Catholic Church that have preceded both of us.
 
My brothers and sisters in Christ, we have tolerated insults, insinuation and all manner of character assassination. When a new person lands here and immediately begins criticizing the church from such an obvious position of ignorance, it is cause for concern. When the Eucharist is branded as a false Christ, it is time for action. Please click on the triangle in the upper right corner of the offending post(s) and tell the Forum Administrator of the offense it has brought. I have done just that and invite all who were so offended to follow suit.

Christ’s peace be with all of you.
 
As I stated earlier, merely questioning a Cahtolic belief sahould not be considered and insult. Likewise, we should not be hurling insults as that halts communications.

Let us all avoid pejorative language and remain charitable and Christ-like in our conduct, please.
 
Well, I am a filthy sinner who deserves Hell as well. But Jesus Christ died for my sins and will bring me to everlasting life and salvation if I believe in Him. take up my cross daily and follow Him.

And the Church (the Catholic Church), as all endevours of men, is in constant need of reform. Both in the first century and today!

I am certain that God would not want the chaos and division of all these denominations.
Well you see there’s the problem-you have said that you are trusting Jesus Christ AND “taking up your cross and following him”.

That’s not what the Bible teaches.

I will take your advice and sign off-I have already received an infraction for ‘blaspheming’ the Eucharist, so I guess our debate on John 6 will be short lived.
 
Well you have met one now!

I have never and never will say “My pastor says…” I will ALWAYS say “The Bible says”!

I would suggest you try reading the Bible from cover to cover WITHOUT any footnotes and the interpretations of the Magisterium and just let the Holy Ghost be your teacher-you will be amazed by the truths you will learn.

I don’t believe that the apostles were ‘biblical’ scholars or archeologists and yet God used them to turn the world upside down.

Read 1 Cor 1:25-31
I read the Scriptures all the time. But I’m careful not to let my opinion or my personal interpretation, misinterpret a passage. I don’t want to add to the dozens and dozens of personal opinions and interpretations that don’t agree with each other. God is not the author of confusion, which is what private interpretation of Scripture leads to, as Peter warns of. This is why we have 6, 8, 10 Christian Communities all within a city block of each other, who preach a diffrent Gospel, using the same Bible!
 
Well you see there’s the problem-you have said that you are trusting Jesus Christ AND “taking up your cross and following him”.

That’s not what the Bible teaches.
Really? So what does the Gospel of Mark mean?
And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me (Mark 8:34 KJV)
 
Are they ignorant? Or do they have a valuable excuse?
I think they have a valid excuse.

Even as a lapsed Catholic evangelical Bible reader I tried very hard to learn the history about the exclusion of the “Catholic” books. I had a Catholic Bible, but I only knew that those “Catholic” books were “Extra-biblical.”

I was a pretty avid reader, and I tried to research it in different protestant Bible encyclopedias, but I never got a good answer, so I just dropped it as a personal question of mind.

Nowadays, there is the Internet. If a protestant has a question about something “Catholic,” they can look it up, and hopefully, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they will be able to distinguish truth from error.
 
What a blessing.

Are you saved?
Well actually since you asked…

yes.

You see the Bible says in Romans 10:9 (New American Standard…which you apparantly believe is corrupt…although I dunno the Scripture that says that is so…)

“That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved”.

I am confessing with my mouth (well with my keyboard) Jesus as Lord. The Lord Jesus Christ is the final judge of my heart, but I am saying that I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Furthermore (since God has not given moi the assignment of judge of the universe) I take the word of anyone at face value (who holds standard trinitarian beliefs anyway) who confesses with mouth (or keyboard as it were) Jesus as Lord and states that they believe God raised Jesus from the dead. Irrespective of denomination.

As far as the subject of this thread…when you use the statement of Jesus referring Abel and Zechariah as supportive of 39 books in the OT (when Jesus was not addressing the canon at all in that passage), you seem to be just as creative in your use of Scripture as the Catholics do when they read Luke 1 and come out with this that Mary never sinned in her entire lifetime and was delivered from original sin at conception. Creative interpretations of Scripture is not limited to Catholicism.

As far as I am concerned, there is one convincing reason in favor of the 39 book OT.
(1) From all historical accounts that I have read, Jesus used the 39 book law and prophets. If someone can bring to the table clear and convincing evidence this is not the case, I might look at it. But I think that at the minimum the fact that the Jewish people fixed their canon not long after the time of Christ, is evidence to this assertion. Otherwise I would ask what changed between Jesus and the time the Jewish people fixed their canon.
(2) Jesus never whined about his OT being long or short books
(3) If a 39 book canon was good enough for Jesus Christ, it is good enough for me today.
 
No, the Catholic interpretation of certain passages ‘supports’ those false teachings.
Which is the interpretation given to us by the Apostles themselves, so I’d be careful about calling them “false” teachings.
Friend, all of the those things you DID does NOT make you a born again Christian.

However, if you claim that you are trusting in Jesus Christ ALONE to get to heaven and NOTHING ELSE, then I have no reason to disbelieve you, and I do sincerely hope that is the case.
Well, I said that I was converted to Christianity, and then I was baptized, which is, according to Jesus’ very words in the Scriptures, when I was born again. I am trusting in Christ to keep me until the Last Day.
Assuming it is then I find it astonishing that you could possibly attend Mass which is the worst kind of idolatry known to mankind and at the same time believe that Christ’s sacrifice was a ONCE and FOR ALL sacrifice never to be repeated! Surely you don’t pray to Mary and believe in transubstantiation do you?
I thought you were Catholic for 40 years? The sacrifice is not repeated - Jesus is not re-crucified in the Mass. I love the Mass, which is where Malachi 1:11 is fulfilled. I hear more Scripture read, sang, and quoted in the Mass than I heard attending Sunday School plus 3 services a week as a Baptist.

For the record, it is not required for any Catholic to ask the Saints to pray for them, though I don’t know why someone wouldn’t want those already made righteous to pray for them, as James tells us that “the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”

I believe Jesus said, “This is my body” and “This is my blood” and earlier He said in John 6:51, 53-57 to eat His flesh and drink His blood. Can’t get much plainer than that. Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it. 👍
Having said that I do believe in eternal security, so if you are saved, then don’t forget the Judgment Seat of Christ where you will lose your rewards for committing the sin of idolatry:(
I have sinned, but I have not committed idolatry. Ever. I worship the Triune God alone.
 
Why don’t you think it’s not obvious to Protestants that their bible is not the bible that contains the fullness of the inspired written Word of God?

Why do you think that is?
Are they ignorant? Or do they have a valuable excuse?

We, as Catholics, of course know that we have had the same bible since the beginning of, well, the bible. Luther came along and deleted books. Therefore, Protestants deny the Holy Spirit’s guidance, do they not, of the creation of the bible?
I suspect you just answered your own question.

We, as “Protestants”, of course know that we have had the same bible since the beginning of, well, the bible.

Pride is a funny thing. It works both ways. 🙂
 
I suspect you just answered your own question.

We, as “Protestants”, of course know that we have had the same bible since the beginning of, well, the bible.

Pride is a funny thing. It works both ways. 🙂
And which version of the Bible would that be? Specifics, please.
 
Greetings folks,

Well … read through the first 7 pages to get the gist of what is going on here so if I may contribute.

The answer to the original question was given back early on, perhaps by drbible as to why protestants don’t accept the apocryphal writings as inspired Scripture. That is Jesus in the New Testament defined the canon of the Old Testament Himself, the writings, the law and the prophets. (Nevuiim, Torah and Ketuviim) please forgive my spelling as I’m sure I misspelled something there. 😃 Protestants agree with this.

During the course of time however the apocrypha was included with bibles and as some have accurately pointed out were preserved with the Dead Sea Scrolls and if I’m not mistaken a number of Apocryphal books were a part of Codex Vaticanun and Codex Siniaticus. This however does not prove that they were considered inspired by the early church. Fortunately the early fathers were not silent about the issue either. There was a sense in which they would refer to it as in the canon or cannonical but not in the way they refer to inspired Scripture.

As I reserach the early fathers on the issue of the apocrypha I would just like to answer the original posters question because we would agree with this direct quote from Augustine. This is from The City of God, Book 15 and chapter 23. Many of the ECF’s held the same opinion.

Chapter 23

Let us omit, then, the fables of those scriptures which are called apocryphal, because their obscure origin was unknown to the fathers from whom the authority of the true Scriptures has been transmitted to us by a most certain and well-ascertained succession. For though there is some truth in these apocryphal writings, yet they contain so many false statements, that they have no canonical authority. We cannot deny that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, left some divine writings, for this is asserted by the Apostle Jude in his canonical epistle. But it is not without reason that these writings have no place in that canon of Scripture which was preserved in the temple of the Hebrew people by the diligence of successive priests; for their antiquity brought them under suspicion, and it was impossible to ascertain whether these were his genuine writings, and they were not brought forward as genuine by the persons who were found to have carefully preserved the canonical books by a successive transmission. So that the writings which are produced under his name, and which contain these fables about the giants, saying that their fathers were not men; are properly judged by prudent men to be not genuine; just as many writings are produced by heretics under the names both of other prophets, and more recently, under the names of the apostles, all of which, after careful examination, have been set apart from canonical authority under the title of Apocrypha.
(from Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series 1, Volume 2, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

In fact Jerome, the very translator of the Latin Vulgate had some very colorful things to say about the Apocrypha.

Briefly in his preface to the Vulgate’s Old Testament Canon he states rather clearly.

“As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church.”

Peace,
theLogos
 
The day you can show me from SCRIPTURE ALONE the mass, prayers to Mary, sacraments etc I will gladly return to the Catholic faith that I was brought up to believe in.

BTW My parish priest taught us at school that ALL protestants were heretics and would burn in hell!

I agree with you 'speak the truth in love"
Read the book of Revelation through the eyes of the Church and all of your answers will come to you.

CDL
 
And perhaps even more clearly by Jerome.

\RUFINUS\A Commentary on the Apostles’ Creed\§36\ - RUFINUS\A Commentary on the Apostles’ Creed\§38\

This then is the Holy Ghost, who in the Old Testament inspired the Law and the Prophets, in the New the Gospels and the Epistles. Whence also the Apostle says, “All Scripture given by inspiration of God is profitable for instruction.” And therefore it seems proper in this place to enumerate, as we have learnt from the tradition of the Fathers, the books of the New and of the Old Testament, which, according to the tradition of our forefathers, are believed to have been inspired by the Holy Ghost, and have been handed down to the Churches of Christ.
  1. Of the Old Testament, therefore, first of all there have been handed down five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Then Jesus Nave, (Joshua the son of Nun), The Book of Judges together with Ruth; then fourbooks of Kings (Reigns), which the Hebrews reckon two; the Book of Omissions, which is entitled the Book of Days (Chronicles), and two books of Ezra (Ezra and Nehemiah), which the Hebrews reckon one, and Esther; of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel; moreover of the twelve (minor) Prophets, one hook; Job also and the Psalms of David, each one book. Solomon gave three books to the Churches, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Canticles. These comprise the books of the Old Testament.
Of the New there are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the Acts of the Apostles, written by Luke; fourteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul, two of the Apostle Pete, one of James, brother of the Lord and Apostle, one of Jude, three of John, the Revelation of John. These are the books which the Fathers have comprised within the Canon, and from which they would have us deduce the proofs of our faith.
  1. But it should be known that there are also other books which our fathers call not “Canonical” but “Ecclesiastical:” that is to say, Wisdom, called the Wisdom of Solomon, and another Wisdom, called the Wisdom of the Son of Syrach, which last-mentioned the Latins called by the general title Ecclesiasticus, designating not the author of the book, but the character of the writing. To the same class belong the Book of Tobit, and the Book of Judith, and the Books of the Maccabees. In the New Testament the little book which is called the Book of the Pastor of Hermas, [and that] which is called The Two Ways, or the Judgment of Peter; all of which they would have read in the Churches, but not appealed to for the confirmation of doctrine. The other writings they have named “Apocrypha.” These they would not have read in the Churches.
These are the traditions which the Fathers have handed down to us, which, as I said, I have thought it opportune to set forth in this place, for the instruction of those who are being taught the first elements of the Church and of the Faith, that they may know from what fountains of the Word of God their draughts must be taken.

(from Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series 2, Volume 3, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Regards,
theLogos
 
The Apocrypha contains historical and geographical errors which my Bible DOES NOT! The authors of Maccabees even disclaims inspiration by his own words. The God of my Bible is not the author of confusion.
Please elaborate on the authors of Maccabees disclaiming their inspiration.
 
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