Why During Vatican 2 Would Catholicism Say It Was Not the True Church of Jesus Christ

[twopekinguys]

Boy, I’m gone for a few hours for RCIA, and i get 2 messages from The Court.

He/she comes on here making outlandish claims that he/she cannot substantiate, then thinks people will have some sort of meaningful dialog in PM’s.

So, The Court, I know you’re reading this, read it carefully, and read it twice if necessary.

If you are adult enough to make a claim against the Catholic Church, then be adult enough to back it up with documentation or a link.

You accuse us of hating your church, and you make baseless, unfounded claims, then refuse to respond in a public forum. Thats not hating?

How sad for you.

You know, there is a commandment about bearing false witness. Making a claim like this, knowing it is false is bearing false witness. Your claim of being a “former mormon” is also bearing a false witness. In case you forgot about making that claim, here is your post:

I am a former Mormon living in the metro Phoenix area preparing to return to Seattle area as soon as possible due to my work. I have always been a Catholic, fortunately I am grateful for this site and outside resources available for those folks like me who wish to strengthen their faith in the church and remain active.

Whether it is Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses or whatever church trying to convert us will always work to do that, I know this is my home regarding my faith always.

You realize of course you have NO credibility here whatsoever right?

Let me make this perfectly clear to you You created a public thread with an outlandish claim. Either support it publicly in the thread, or admit you were wrong.

Finally, DO NOT send me another private message.

 

[twopekinguys]

TheCourt,

Responding to your PM:

I want you to demonstrate your OP by showing us where Vatican 2 stated that Catholicism was not the true Church of Jesus Christ. This is your claim, and we are asking for you to substantiate it. Many of us are quite familiar with Vatican 2, so we will wait.

Hold your breath.

I hear Blue is the “IN” color this year.

LOL

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Hold your breath.

I hear Blue is the “IN” color this year.

LOL

LOL dude, he tells me in the PM that “if you do not believe, look in the Vatican 2 documents for yourself”. I’ve been familiar with the Vatican II documents long before this thread existed. He states that during Vatican II, “Catholicism says it was not the true Church of Jesus Christ”. I would like to see evidence of this claim. Just saying “look in the Vatican 2 documents for yourself” is not substantiating the claim, since I and others did look (and have been looking), and have never seen such a claim.

Why are all of his threads like this?

 

[twopekinguys]

LOL dude, he tells me in the PM that “if you do not believe, look in the Vatican 2 documents for yourself”. I’ve been familiar with the Vatican II documents long before this thread existed. He states that during Vatican II, “Catholicism says it was not the true Church of Jesus Christ”. I would like to see evidence of this claim. Just saying “look in the Vatican 2 documents for yourself” is not substantiating the claim, since I and others did look (and have been looking), and have never seen such a claim.

Why are all of his threads like this?

He told me the same thing.

Why are his threads like this? That is the $64,000 question.

But I can tell you this. He reminds me of a certain kind of clock. One that has a little birdie that comes out every hour and makes a noise. They are usually made in Bavaria.

Know what I mean?

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

He told me the same thing.

Why are his threads like this? That is the $64,000 question.

But I can tell you this. He reminds me of a certain kind of clock. One that has a little birdie that comes out every hour and makes a noise. They are usually made in Bavaria.

Know what I mean?

That’s exactly it.

 

[Kdesiel]

Nancy great post…awesome!

Classic scenario we have here…

Mormon opens thread making outlandish and abusive statements about the Catholic Church.

Mormon is asked to substantiate such claims via sources, facts the like.

Mormon disappears, makes neither argument nor debates his/her stand.

Mormon through an act of cowardice contacts various members through P.M. trying to instigate a private discussion?

Mormon has no facts or substance to his/her claims, just says things on a whim in order to illicit a response…Classic it never gets old. When force to provide proof or effectively support their stand, they deflect and run away.

 

[BabyFang]

I didn’t get a message from thecourt. I’m not feeling the love. Hehe.

 

[twopekinguys]

I didn’t get a message from thecourt. I’m not feeling the love. Hehe.

Trust me, you’re not missing much.

I replied to his PM, and I replied to him here. He made a statement in a thread that he started, he should defend his position (if he can) in that same thread.

As you can she, he hasn’t been back. I also doubt he will be.

 

[Soutane]

Dn’t posters of this ilk have any shame?All they do is bring ridicule and derision to their cults?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Vatican letter directs bishops to keep parish records from Mormons
By Chaz Muth
Catholic News Service

WASHINGTON (CNS) – In an effort to block posthumous rebaptisms by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Catholic dioceses throughout the world have been directed by the Vatican not to give information in parish registers to the Mormons’ Genealogical Society of Utah.

An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy, obtained by Catholic News Service in late April, asks episcopal conferences to direct all bishops to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and digitizing information contained in those registers.

The order came in light of “grave reservations” expressed in a Jan. 29 letter from the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the clergy congregation’s letter said.

Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S. bishops’ Secretariat of Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, said the step was taken to prevent the Latter-day Saints from using records – such as baptismal documentation – to posthumously baptize by proxy the ancestors of church members.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.ht…

Good!

 

[thecourt]

All of you who claim I am being dishonest can look at the official Vatican 2 documents for yourselves. I do not need to prove anything.

Did Catholicism finally years reveal what Martin Luther and other reformers knew? That Catholicism was not the church established by Jesus Christ.

For me, it goes beyond the Vatican 2 documents. The authority is one example — no one on the forums can tell me honestly that from Benedict XVI to every other priest, cardinal, or priest received the authority from Christ. Do not tell the talk about the “feeling” they had to decide to become a priest. A feeling to me does not give any of them grounds to take something that is not their for the taking - receiving the priesthood.

Another example is revelation — does Benedict XVI receive revelation? I forgot that you folks believe the heavens are closed and revelation is not needed now.

I could give other examples, nonetheless I grateful despite the hatred on the forums here and the out and out dishonest and unfactual statements about what my church believes.

And yet, some of you try to tell me that my church is false and I need to come to a church that from its on official Vatican 2 documents is not what it professed.

 

[BabyFang]

All of you who claim I am being dishonest can look at the official Vatican 2 documents for yourselves. I do not need to prove anything.

It’s only proper forum etiquette to provide a source for “facts” especially if you’re going to make outlandish statements.

Nice of you to show up, by the way.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I–and I’m sure others-- have looked at the Vatican 2 documents. I don’t find any statements in them that approach what you ‘say’ they say. So fine, give us the exact statement and the appropriate document (there are 14 of them) in which is this statement of yours is made. Why should we have to search through 14 separate documents trying to figure out if any statements in there might possibly look like the Church is saying it is not 'The" Church to a non-Catholic?

Don’t try to do the ‘bait and switch’ with us, please. That’s disingenuous. Stick with the topic of the thread–you made it–that 'during Vatican 2 Catholicism claimed it was not the true Church of Christ. It was your topic after all. And don’t try to play the ‘poor little me martyr’ card either. That’s as old as it is false.

Either show us with relevant citations such as “In Lumen Gentium it is asserted here, (cite the passage) and thus, the Church itself claims it is not Christ’s church”, or abandon this thread (with apologies) because you cannot substantiate your claim on further review.

You may have misunderstood, in which case we can help you by explaining what was said. You might still not want to be Catholic but at least you won’t be making false (unintentional but false all the same) charges.

Feel free to address this by giving the relevant document and passage right here on this thread.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

All of you who claim I am being dishonest can look at the official Vatican 2 documents for yourselves. I do not need to prove anything.

Did Catholicism finally years reveal what Martin Luther and other reformers knew? That Catholicism was not the church established by Jesus Christ.

For me, it goes beyond the Vatican 2 documents. The authority is one example — no one on the forums can tell me honestly that from Benedict XVI to every other priest, cardinal, or priest received the authority from Christ. Do not tell the talk about the “feeling” they had to decide to become a priest. A feeling to me does not give any of them grounds to take something that is not their for the taking - receiving the priesthood.

Another example is revelation — does Benedict XVI receive revelation? I forgot that you folks believe the heavens are closed and revelation is not needed now.

I could give other examples, nonetheless I grateful despite the hatred on the forums here and the out and out dishonest and unfactual statements about what my church believes.

And yet, some of you try to tell me that my church is false and I need to come to a church that from its on official Vatican 2 documents is not what it professed.

TheCourt, you have yet to substantiate your claims. We have read the Vatican 2 documents, and do not see where Catholicism says “it was not the True Church of Jesus Christ”. Now point out where exactly in those documents this is stated. You made a claim, and you have not yet backed it up. Yes, you do need to prove something, and that is your OP. You cannot just make a claim, and see, go read these documents, and leave it at that, especially when, as you have been told repeatedly, we have read those documents (probably more than you have) and do not see your claim.

Sorry, you have a very skewed view of the Catholic Church, especially for someone that previously claimed that they are Catholic. Sorry, the Catholic Church does have the priesthood of Christ, and is not based on “feeling” that we have it. All bishops and priests in the Catholic Church are ordained and given the authority from Jesus Christ. You don’t declare yourself to be a priest just because you “feel” like you are. Try reading about Catholicism before making such false claims, especially when, you claimed to be Catholic previously.

Some Mormons like yourself like to claim that traditional Christians believe that the “heavens are closed”, which is not based on reality. The Heavens are wide open. All people are entitled to private revelation, and if you knew about Catholicism, you would know that many such private revelations are well known in our Church throughout the world. Jesus Christ is present in every Catholic Church in a special way, in the Eucharist.

When was the last time the Doctrine and Covenants was added to?

Now again, prove that the Vatican 2 documents say that the Catholic Church is not what it professes to be, namely the one, true Church of Jesus Christ on earth and in Heaven. We have read the documents and we do not see it, so point it out. Otherwise, we will continue to believe that you are lying.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

thecourt is giving a false witness. This is usually how those that do this behave when they know that their claim is not based in fact, but a lie. They will never actually substantiate their claims. He can’t even give the name of a document.

 

[Kdesiel]

All of you who claim I am being dishonest can look at the official Vatican 2 documents for yourselves. I do not need to prove anything.

Did Catholicism finally years reveal what Martin Luther and other reformers knew? That Catholicism was not the church established by Jesus Christ.

For me, it goes beyond the Vatican 2 documents. The authority is one example — no one on the forums can tell me honestly that from Benedict XVI to every other priest, cardinal, or priest received the authority from Christ. Do not tell the talk about the “feeling” they had to decide to become a priest. A feeling to me does not give any of them grounds to take something that is not their for the taking - receiving the priesthood.

Another example is revelation — does Benedict XVI receive revelation? I forgot that you folks believe the heavens are closed and revelation is not needed now.

I could give other examples, nonetheless I grateful despite the hatred on the forums here and the out and out dishonest and unfactual statements about what my church believes.

And yet, some of you try to tell me that my church is false and I need to come to a church that from its on official Vatican 2 documents is not what it professed.

We don’t have to “Claim” or even accuse you of dishonesty you have provided sufficient evidence to those traits through your actions in various threads, namely this one. In fact your dishonesty and deceitfulness is the ONLY thing you have successfully established.

There have been no dishonest statements concerning “your church” or the beliefs therein. The statements concerning Mormons have been made with substantiated fact behind them. On the other hand you have yet to answer for the ridiculous statement you made in your O.P. that the Catholic Church has denied its divine origin.

As for Line of Priesthood Authority the Catholic Church has it well documented, knowing quite a bit about the Mormon Cult I know you also, granted you’re a male over 18 years of age, also have a “Line of Authority” care to share yours and we’ll compare notes.

I find it far more comforting that instead of handing out the Priesthood at 12years of age simply for showing up part time on Sundays, the Church of Christ has chosen to give such a distinct honor to those who’ve proven themselves both with spiritual and intellectual savvy, more than I can say for the Mormons.
The most disparaging thing I’ve heard in these forums regarding your “religion” is the common thread that Mormons when presented with the aspect of providing substantiated Documentation or Fact overwhelmingly FAIL to do so.

You sir/madam are a coward and a liar! Until proven otherwise that is how I will perceive you, and I have no time for either.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Why not give us a helping hand? We are obviously struggling to see what you see – so if you would be so kind as to point out the exact document and paragraph from Vatican II that states this, it would help this discussion along.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Our inability to find your claimed statement is further thwarted by contradictory statements in the Vatican II documents. For example, in Lumen Gentium paragraph 8, it is stated:

…This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him (13*)…

 

[twopekinguys]

All of you who claim I am being dishonest can look at the official Vatican 2 documents for yourselves. I do not need to prove anything.

Did Catholicism finally years reveal what Martin Luther and other reformers knew? That Catholicism was not the church established by Jesus Christ.

For me, it goes beyond the Vatican 2 documents. The authority is one example — no one on the forums can tell me honestly that from Benedict XVI to every other priest, cardinal, or priest received the authority from Christ. Do not tell the talk about the “feeling” they had to decide to become a priest. A feeling to me does not give any of them grounds to take something that is not their for the taking - receiving the priesthood.

Another example is revelation — does Benedict XVI receive revelation? I forgot that you folks believe the heavens are closed and revelation is not needed now.

I could give other examples, nonetheless I grateful despite the hatred on the forums here and the out and out dishonest and unfactual statements about what my church believes.

And yet, some of you try to tell me that my church is false and I need to come to a church that from its on official Vatican 2 documents is not what it professed.

ahh…here we go again with another mormon tactic…deflection.

So far, we have deceit—claimed to be Catholic at one point.

Then we have distortion–unfounded claim which cannot be proven or substantiated.

Let’s not forget persecution–grateful for the “hatred”

Now we have diversion–change the subject to priestly authority.

Anybody got any ideas on the next tactic?

Court, you really need to understand how forums work.

You make a claim…providing documents or link to back it up. We counter that claim with documents or links to back up our position. Then the conversation or debate proceeds from there.

Does that make sense to you?

Now, several posters have told you they have examined the Vatican II documents, and have told you that your claim is not true. Please provide references to support what you are claiming, or give it up.

You are losing any remaining credibility that you might have had at the beginning of this fiasco.

 

[Sonny_Jim]

Mormonism is an EPIC FAIL of ginormous proportions.

Taking a page from thecourt’s book: I don’t need to prove anything!