On another level, Ben, it may mean to speak about Jesus as the Messiah ALSO, though Isaiah may not have received such a precise knowledge then. It’s very likely if God really is the author of the Scriptures, Ben!!! Oh, yes!**Isaiah does not speak of a Messiah who SHALL be known as “God with us.” Isaiah speaks of a Messiah who means God with us. Read Isaiah 8:8.
Listen Alan, if you believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. Isaiah identifies that Servant as Israel by name, so that you won’t have to waste your time assuming that he was Jesus.**
**I hate hypothetical questions. But in honor to you, I am going to answer this one. I would become a Catholic. **And how threatening to you and to the Jews in general would it be if the NT interpretation of the Suffering Servant passages were true, tell me?
**While Jesus was alive, he was part of the Messiah, according to Isaiah. The Messiah does not die. The Messiah lives. That’s why the Messiah cannot be an individual, but the People.On another level, Ben, it may mean to speak about Jesus as the Messiah ALSO, though Isaiah may not have received such a precise knowledge then. It’s very likely if God really is the author of the Scriptures, Ben!!! Oh, yes!
**I understand you because you have no knowledge about the concept of Messiah ben Joseph, who was Israel, the Ten Tribes versus Messiah ben David, who is Judah.I get your point although Isaiah 53:9 says “Though he had done no injustice and had spoken no falsehood”. This cannot apply to Israel (Jacob) or to the nation of Israel for it would be untrue of either of them. Therefore one must assume that it refers to someone else. I am using the Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures according to the Hebrew Text as my translation.
And who had to die for the own sins of Israel?Israel had to die for the sins of Judah. Sins that Israel had not committed. This means Israel was without the injustice and falsehood of Judah. It doesn’t matter how evil was Israel. He didn’t die for his sins but for the sins of Judah. So, it applies to Israel.
**There are two kinds of sins: The sins that come as a result of transgressing the Law, and the sins that come as a result of insurrection or rejection of God’s Covenant. No one dies from transgressing the Law, but from rejecting it. And the kind of death I am talking about is the one in Psalm 78:67-69. Final rejection by God.And who had to die for the own sins of Israel?
Did you answer this one question, Ben?And who had to die for the own sins of Israel?
**There are two reasons for exile: One is to spread the Jews among the nations so that the knowledge of God be brought to them. The other reason is to purge our sins as a result of transgressing the Law. But Judah, or the Jewish People now, will never run the risk to be doomed, because that’s all that the world has, because Israel, the Suffering Servant or MbJ is gone. Judah, the Triumphant Servant or MbD can never be doomed. The existence of the world depends on the existence of Judah. That’s why Jesus said that salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22) **But then years after that Judah sinned again and was deported to Babylon and the Temple of Jerusalem was destroyed. Whose sacrifice then brought Judah back to life, so to speak, through coming back to their land and having their Temple rebuilt? ( Not Israel’s in this case, I guess, since they had been sent away many years before… )
**Post # 364. **Did you answer this one question, Ben?
(I don’t think I read it, but if you already had some time ago, just refer to the number of the post. Thank you…)
Maybe my question wasn’t clear enough:And who died for the sins of Israel (I meant the Kingdom of Israel, with the 10 tribes other than Judah and Benjamin)?**Post # 364. **
I can see that’s your conviction. I know many Chassidic rabbis before you told God just that in their prayer… Except that God does not “need” Israel per se! He chose Israel not because He needed Israel but because He decided to choose Israel.**Judah, or the Jewish People now, will never run the risk to be doomed, because that’s all that the world has, because Israel, the Suffering Servant or MbJ is gone.
Judah, the Triumphant Servant or MbD can never be doomed. The existence of the world depends on the existence of Judah. That’s why Jesus said that salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22) **
I thought non-Catholic issues would have to do with religions other than Catholic, but here you have been discussing the relevance of a number of dogmas of the Catholic Church and how Jesus, according to you, was kind of Hijacked by some people to create Christianity, so it should have been, really, discussed in a Catholic section. And I believe you would not dare discuss them with somebody like Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ. I am not even sure you would even dare to listen to his reply.I am in a non-Catholic section of the Forum. If you cannot refute my views, don’t try to use the above to evade the issue.
No, no, no. He is not appealing to the authority of secret knowledge. He is arguing a point. It’s a point I’ve never heard before, and it makes sense.these kind of knowledges are secret knowledges given to the elite (gnosis).
I’ve heard people make this argument many times, as a way of saying that trinitarianism exists even in the Hebrew Scriptures.I am not aware of anyone believing in the Trinity because of the word Elohim.
You are mistaken. Ben is referring to a COMMON argument of trinitarians to “show” how trinitarianism exists in the Hebrew Scriptures.Your initial premise is flawed. First of all, I don’t think Christians, in general, understand the word Elohim to be plural. Nor do trinitarian Christians view the Trinity as a plurality. The trinity is a unity.
I’m new to CAF, so someone please clue me in. But my suspicions are that Ben would not have the same freedom to speak there as he does here in this forum? The rules of this particular forum probably allow for a greater breadth of non-christian opinions to be expressed?I thought non-Catholic issues would have to do with religions other than Catholic, but here you have been discussing the relevance of a number of dogmas of the Catholic Church and how Jesus, according to you, was kind of Hijacked by some people to create Christianity, so it should have been, really, discussed in a Catholic section. And I believe you would not dare discuss them with somebody like Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ. I am not even sure you would even dare to listen to his reply.
**Catholicism is not the only Christian denomination. There are many others. It just happens that most people who pick up my posts for a reply are Catholics.I thought non-Catholic issues would have to do with religions other than Catholic, but here you have been discussing the relevance of a number of dogmas of the Catholic Church and how Jesus, according to you, was kind of Hijacked by some people to create Christianity, so it should have been, really, discussed in a Catholic section. And I believe you would not dare discuss them with somebody like Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ. I am not even sure you would even dare to listen to his reply.
I can’t agree with you more. That’s what I mean. Now, we have to live with the will of God. He chose Israel, and the world must acknowledge His will and give Israel some credit before the world.I can see that’s your conviction. I know many Chassidic rabbis before you told God just that in their prayer… Except that God does not “need” Israel per se! He chose Israel not because He needed Israel but because He decided to choose Israel.
**No, your question was clear enough, and my answer in #384 was adequate to your question. Death is the last station in the life of man. Death is the equalizing factor to set things right with God. With death all our sins are made white as snow. (Isa. 1:18,19) When Israel was doomed by God to die to redeem Judah, God had forgiven all his sins. Nobody had to die for the sins of Israel, therefore. **Maybe my question wasn’t clear enough:And who died for the sins of Israel (I meant the Kingdom of Israel, with the 10 tribes other than Judah and Benjamin)?