Why Evangelicals are returning

[FabiusMaximus]

I can’t speak for anyone else but I have the same inclinations you do. What attracts me is the ancient Church. Some reasons I am dissatisfied where I am is: the rejection of tradition; the rejection of duty, hierarchy and authority; the embracing of jacobin equality; and the apparent contempt of beauty. I think, but this is really just speculation, that I would feel a stronger pull to the Catholic Church of old. Of course I’m aware that I tend to idealize the past. And I’m also aware that I still have much work to do in being able to surrender my expectations of perfection in this world.

It just feels absolutely empty and lifeless. The Tridentine Mass to me is glorious, fills me with reverence, humility, remorse. And I believe that a high Novus Ordo Mass can do the same thing.

But I honestly cannot deal with parishes the way they seem to have become today. It seems totally alien from the ‘Catholic Church of old’ as you put it. And it’s a major stumbling block to me considering conversion.

 

[KathleenGee]

Certain parishes today seem to focus too much on priest personalities or the work of the people in providing liturgy…what we recall is the former where the Mass is seen as the atonement for sin in the Lamb of God present, wounded, but gloriously triumphant on the altar of God…united with all our ordinary works, trials and sufferings of every day life here on earth.

Pope Benedict is most aware of this, as well as the Orthodox.

I read somewhere, ‘Do not treat God commonly.’

 

[adf417]

It just feels absolutely empty and lifeless. The Tridentine Mass to me is glorious, fills me with reverence, humility, remorse. And I believe that a high Novus Ordo Mass can do the same thing.

But I honestly cannot deal with parishes the way they seem to have become today. It seems totally alien from the ‘Catholic Church of old’ as you put it. And it’s a major stumbling block to me considering conversion.

I think I can understand what you are saying. I do sense a difference in church liturgies when I travel out of town to other churches. I always look at this as the difference in cultures as if I were to travel to another country where I’m sure it is even much more different there. But when you consider the ultimate experience of the Mass in the Eucharist, and that every single church, liturgy, Catholic experience at that moment is exactly the same, the most pure form of worship we can give to God, it all seems to fit as complete. We cannot all be the same persons but we can all be one in the Eucharist. Thanks be to God.

Peace!!!

 

[CopticChristian]

I can’t speak for anyone else but I have the same inclinations you do. What attracts me is the ancient Church. Some reasons I am dissatisfied where I am is: the rejection of tradition; the rejection of duty, hierarchy and authority; the embracing of jacobin equality; and the apparent contempt of beauty. I think, but this is really just speculation, that I would feel a stronger pull to the Catholic Church of old. Of course I’m aware that I tend to idealize the past. And I’m also aware that I still have much work to do in being able to surrender my expectations of perfection in this world.

Nihil,

You may want to look into the understanding of Ancient, Mideival and Modern as it relates to the Church. This is a western philosophical invention that has crept into Protestant thought and dialogue. I usally see it whe Protestants speak of what was and is not today as if it was something to go back to.

Jesus spoke of a mustard seed. The OHCAC in its document gaudim et spes…says “The Church in the Modern World”…this is consistent with the fact that the Curch is in the world…

The Church has been a seed, a plant…or as Paul says it when I was a child…it has grown up and the Church today is that same Church.

If Jesus is the same today, yesterday and tommorrow. If the Body of Christ is the Church or His bride…then can the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ…be Ancient, Midieval or Modern…beyond that to designate the Church as Ancient denies Paul/Bible…the Church is the mystery hidden for all ages…therefore it predates time…hidden for all ages predates time. It is the intrument of God that is timeless since it is His.

 

[CopticChristian]

reformed.org/webfiles/antithesis/index.html?mainframe=/webfiles/antithesis/v1n5/ant_v1n5_romeward.html

Romeward Bound: Evaluating Why Protestants Convert to Catholicism
David Hagopian

I found this article interesting…In an attempt to paint the reason Protestants become Catholic the author draws a long discussion to an end with this…

Falling in love with everything Rome has to offer is ultimately why Neocatholics have found their home in Rome. Perhaps after travelling part of the way down the yellow brick road of Neocatholic rhetoric, we are now in a better position to “give an answer” – in an introductory way, to be sure – to those who are considering making their home in Rome and even to those who are already there. After all, even Dorothy, with the blink of an eye, realized that her adventure in the land of Oz was only a dream.

Giving this as the reason for the move and suggesting that becoming Reformed would solve the problem as well…

The problem with appealing to the distortions of Fundamentalist taboos is that such an appeal doesn’t prove Protestantism, as a whole, to be defunct. Nor does it prove Catholicism to be true. In other words, you don’t need to become a Catholic to overcome Fundamentalist legalism. Reformed Protestants have been perhaps the greatest champions of Christian liberty, teaching that Christians are free to enjoy all things that God doesn’t forbid in Scripture (i.e. as long as they do so within the limits that God has prescribed in Scripture). This goes for drinking and dancing as well as music and movies and a host of other activities. So this is actually an area where Reformed Protestants and Catholics agree, albeit formally.

However towards the end in this section called Name Dropping…

Name Dropping

But do names really matter? What really matters is whether the message these theological greats heralded is true. And that spins us right around – again – to answering the intractable question of authority. You see, Neocatholics have to name drop because name dropping is built into their ultimate authority (Tradition). When all of their rhetorical dust settles to the ground, however, the only true authority left standing is God speaking to His people through His veritable Word.

The author falsely concludes that Tradition is the ultimate authority for Catholics…the unfortunate situation is that Protestants that read this will believe this and Catholics that read this will say…you have to be kidding…yet the spin of what it is Catholics believe and are taught is forever the problem of Protestant thought…

What thinkest thou?…Ultimate Authority… ?

And you have to wonder why the Protestant that wrote this does not understand that the manifold Wisdom of God is known through the Church…???God speaks through the Church and the Bible was born through the Church…wrong paradigm for the author.

 

[mab23]

im not to happy about the wizard of oz reference!

I think this article is a bunch of hoo ha In my opinion!

ive known a few people joining RCIA and its not because of Rome, its because they want a deeper understanding

 

[stewstew03]

What thinkest thou?…Ultimate Authority… ?

And you have to wonder why the Protestant that wrote this does not understand that the manifold Wisdom of God is known through the Church…???God speaks through the Church and the Bible was born through the Church…wrong paradigm for the author.

Thanks for sharing CC.

It’s so important, for those of us who are “Neo-Catholics,” to be prepared to defend our faith (charitably, of course) - whether with misinformed Catholics in our parishes, anti-Catholics on CAF, evangelicals on our doorsteps, etc…

 

[Hesychios]

Really?

No.

 

[Nine_Two]

Really?

Only if you use a very loose definition of the word “permit”. But if you use that definition you have to acknowledge that the Catholic church “permits” unlimited “divorces” and even more remarriages.

Someone making an honest argument for either church clearly wouldn’t.

 

[CopticChristian]

Only if you use a very loose definition of the word “permit”. But if you use that definition** you have to acknowledge that the Catholic church “permits” unlimited “divorces” and even more remarriages.**
Someone making an honest argument for either church clearly wouldn’t.

Nine,

Help me please. Find the documents that support this permission of unlimited divorce and more remarriage for when I tire of this one I can get another and another…maybe being Catholic isn’t so bad…I am counting on you please help me so that I may free myself of this bondage of belief that it is not so…so glad you pointed this out…

 

[onemangang]

Maybe Evangelicals are returning because of the sinners prayer

I grabbed this from an article online

**
SPIRITUAL COMMUNION**

Spiritual Communion is a practice among Catholics of desiring union with Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist as a response to God’s own desire for union. It is used especially as a preparation for Holy Mass.

This practice is well-established in the Catholic Church and highly recommended by many saints, according to Pope John Paul II. He explained that practicing this constant desire for Jesus in the Eucharist is rooted in the ultimate perfection of Eucharistic communion, which is the ultimate goal of every human desire.

Do you feel too busy to make time for our Lord? An Act of Spiritual Communion can help! No matter what your day is like, Jesus can help make it better, or at least more bearable, if you ask him for His help and guidance in prayers such as this one, composed by St. Alphonsus Liguori in the 18th century:

My Jesus, I believe that you are present in the most Blessed Sacrament. I love You above all things and I desire to receive You into my soul. Since I cannot now receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. I embrace You as if You have already come, and unite myself wholly to You. Never permit me to be separated from You. Amen.

The best way to receive Christ is in Holy Communion at Mass.
Yet for those times you can’t make Mass, or can’t take Communion because of an unconfessed mortal sin (for which you can ask for and receive God’s forgiveness in the Sacrament of Penance), you can still reach out to Him by making a Spiritual Communion in prayer!

St. Thomas Aquinas once defined a Spiritual Communion as “an ardent desire to receive Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament [in Communion at Mass] and in lovingly embracing Him as if we had actually received Him.”

Those hosts not used in Holy Communion at Mass are placed in a special box known as the Tabernacle to be given out later to the sick or the dying who cannot attend Mass, and to be exposed otherwise for adoration in what is known as the Rite of Eucharistic Exposition and Benediction.
You can make a Spiritual Communion such as this one below during Mass, or before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, or anywhere else where the Spirit moves you.

Oh Jesus, I turn toward the holy tabernacle where You live hidden for love of me. I love you, O my God. I cannot receive you in Holy Communion. Come, nevertheless, and visit me with Your grace. Come spiritually into my heart. Purify it. Sanctify it. Render it like unto Your own. Amen.

The Baltimore Catechism notes that a Spiritual Communion “is an act of devotion, and one very pleasing to God.”

St. Jean-Marie Vianney, a French priest famous for converting countless souls to Christ in his parish of Ars in the 19th century, once said “when we feel the love of God growing cold, let us instantly make a Spiritual Communion. When we cannot go to the church, let us turn towards the tabernacle; no wall can shut us out from the good God.” We can indeed be grateful for that!

 

[CopticChristian]

Maybe Evangelicals are returning because of the sinners prayer

I grabbed this from an article online

**
SPIRITUAL COMMUNION**

Spiritual Communion is a practice among Catholics of desiring union with Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist as a response to God’s own desire for union. It is used especially as a preparation for Holy Mass.

This practice is well-established in the Catholic Church and highly recommended by many saints, according to Pope John Paul II. He explained that practicing this constant desire for Jesus in the Eucharist is rooted in the ultimate perfection of Eucharistic communion, which is the ultimate goal of every human desire.

Do you feel too busy to make time for our Lord? An Act of Spiritual Communion can help! No matter what your day is like, Jesus can help make it better, or at least more bearable, if you ask him for His help and guidance in prayers such as this one, composed by St. Alphonsus Liguori in the 18th century:

My Jesus, I believe that you are present in the most Blessed Sacrament. I love You above all things and I desire to receive You into my soul. Since I cannot now receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. I embrace You as if You have already come, and unite myself wholly to You. Never permit me to be separated from You. Amen.

The best way to receive Christ is in Holy Communion at Mass.
Yet for those times you can’t make Mass, or can’t take Communion because of an unconfessed mortal sin (for which you can ask for and receive God’s forgiveness in the Sacrament of Penance), you can still reach out to Him by making a Spiritual Communion in prayer!

St. Thomas Aquinas once defined a Spiritual Communion as “an ardent desire to receive Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament [in Communion at Mass] and in lovingly embracing Him as if we had actually received Him.”

Those hosts not used in Holy Communion at Mass are placed in a special box known as the Tabernacle to be given out later to the sick or the dying who cannot attend Mass, and to be exposed otherwise for adoration in what is known as the Rite of Eucharistic Exposition and Benediction.
You can make a Spiritual Communion such as this one below during Mass, or before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, or anywhere else where the Spirit moves you.

Oh Jesus, I turn toward the holy tabernacle where You live hidden for love of me. I love you, O my God. I cannot receive you in Holy Communion. Come, nevertheless, and visit me with Your grace. Come spiritually into my heart. Purify it. Sanctify it. Render it like unto Your own. Amen.

The Baltimore Catechism notes that a Spiritual Communion “is an act of devotion, and one very pleasing to God.”

St. Jean-Marie Vianney, a French priest famous for converting countless souls to Christ in his parish of Ars in the 19th century, once said “when we feel the love of God growing cold, let us instantly make a Spiritual Communion. When we cannot go to the church, let us turn towards the tabernacle; no wall can shut us out from the good God.” We can indeed be grateful for that!

One,

I don’t know. This sounds like a sinners prayer and an altar call to me. Are you sure that the OHCAC was not Protestant at one time? Is it possible that Protestants took this stuff from the OHCAC?

 

[Nine_Two]

Nine,

Help me please. Find the documents that support this permission of unlimited divorce and more remarriage for when I tire of this one I can get another and another…maybe being Catholic isn’t so bad…I am counting on you please help me so that I may free myself of this bondage of belief that it is not so…so glad you pointed this out…

To anyone outside the Catholic Church an annulment is essentially the same thing. Do you deny that one is permitted an unlimited number? Additionally unlike in the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church counts death as an end to marriage, and permits remarriage after. Do you disagree with this?

Because that is how loosely and dishonestly one has to use the terms to get the idea that the Orthodox Church “permits” two divorces and three marriages.

 

[CopticChristian]

To anyone outside the Catholic Church an annulment is essentially the same thing. Do you deny that one is permitted an unlimited number? Additionally unlike in the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church counts death as an end to marriage, and permits remarriage after. Do you disagree with this?

Because that is how loosely and dishonestly one has to use the terms to get the idea that the Orthodox Church “permits” two divorces and three marriages.

Nine,

I am not an annulment expert however as I understand it there has to be reasons for annulment that depend on form etc…I know that there is such a thing as a Pauline privelege but not much else. I know that when you file for an anulment that Church lawyers get involved…one arguing for and the other arguing against the marriage…I have no idea how many anulments are allowed.

I do not understand what you are saying here. The Orthodox does not allow remarriage if your spouse dies? Paul says in the letter to the Romans, chapter 7, that the death of a spouse allows remarriage comparing the dead Old Covenant to a spouse.

I have no idea what you are talking about the Orthodox and divorces and three marriages. That is not an idea that I put forth…clarify this position if you have time…

Sounds like I am stuck with what I have here.

 

[Nine_Two]

Nine,

I am not an annulment expert however as I understand it there has to be reasons for annulment that depend on form etc…I know that there is such a thing as a Pauline privelege but not much else. I know that when you file for an anulment that Church lawyers get involved…one arguing for and the other arguing against the marriage…I have no idea how many anulments are allowed.

I do not understand what you are saying here. The Orthodox does not allow remarriage if your spouse dies? Paul says in the letter to the Romans, chapter 7, that the death of a spouse allows remarriage comparing the dead Old Covenant to a spouse.

I have no idea what you are talking about the Orthodox and divorces and three marriages. That is not an idea that I put forth…clarify this position if you have time…

Sounds like I am stuck with what I have here.

You didn’t put it forth, another poster in this thread did on the previous page. I am answering his accusations, using his terminology, and his definitions. I am trying to make it clear how absurd his accusation is.

 

[Marybeloved]

To anyone outside the Catholic Church an annulment is essentially the same thing. Do you deny that one is permitted an unlimited number? Additionally unlike in the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church counts death as an end to marriage, and permits remarriage after. Do you disagree with this?

Never knew this (that the E.O don’t count death as end of marriage). Always assumed it was universal in christendom. Interesting.

 

[CopticChristian]

Never knew this (that the E.O don’t count death as end of marriage). Always assumed it was universal in christendom. Interesting.

I do not know how accurate this is…

orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/athenagoras_remarriage.htm

Orthodox canon law can permit a second and even a third marriage “in economia”, but strictly forbids a fourth. In theory divorce is only recognized in the case of adultery, but in practise is also recognised in light of other reasons.

Here is something I found on death of a spouse…

stgeorgegoc.org/divorcePastoralGuidelines.htm

The Orthodox Christian, in traditional view, canonical regulations on divorce and remarriage are based on two presuppositions. 1) Marriage is a sacrament conferred upon the partners in the Body of the Church through the priest’s blessing. As any sacrament, marriage pertains to the eternal life in the Kingdom of God and therefore, is not dissolved by the death of one partner. An eternal bond is created between them—“it is given to them” (Matthew 19:11). 2) As sacrament, marriage is not a magical act, but a gift of grace. The partners, being humans, may have made a mistake in soliciting the grace of marriage when they were not ready for it; or they may prove to be unable to make this grace grow to maturity. In those cases, the Church may admit the fact that the grace was not “received,” tolerate separation and allow remarriage.

 

[Marybeloved]

Here is something I found on death of a spouse…

stgeorgegoc.org/divorcePastoralGuidelines.htm
The Orthodox Christian, in traditional view, canonical regulations on divorce and remarriage are based on two presuppositions. 1) Marriage is a sacrament conferred upon the partners in the Body of the Church through the priest’s blessing. As any sacrament, marriage pertains to the eternal life in the Kingdom of God and therefore, is not dissolved by the death of one partner. An eternal bond is created between them—“it is given to them” (Matthew 19:11).

This is interesting. If an eternal bond is created then how can the sacrament die and how can another marriage occur while the eternal bond lives on? Is the remarried E.Orthodox spouse eternally bound to three different spouses? Seems like what the Jews asked Christ- Who will be the spouse of the remarried spouse in heaven? Also, I thought Christ said to the Jews in the Gospels that marriage does not exist in heaven, and the Apostles seem to presume the end of marriage when they take for granted the remarriage of widows after the death of the spouse.

1. As sacrament, marriage is not a magical act, but a gift of grace. The partners, being humans, may have made a mistake in soliciting the grace of marriage when they were not ready for it; or they may prove to be unable to make this grace grow to maturity. *In those cases, the Church may admit the fact that the grace was not “received,” tolerate separation and allow remarriage. *

This seems like the description of an annulment, not a divorce- If the grace was not received then there simply is no sacrament- No grace, no sacrament, that’s always the case even with other sacraments. Like I said, I fnd it very interesting. I wonder what the underlying reasoning is for the E.O view of marriage and it’s nature.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is interesting. If an eternal bond is created then how can the sacrament die and how can another marriage occur while the eternal bond lives on? Is the remarried E.Orthodox spouse eternally bound to three different spouses? Seems like what the Jews asked Christ- Who will be the spouse of the remarried spouse in heaven? Also, I thought Christ said to the Jews in the Gospels that marriage does not exist in heaven, and the Apostles seem to presume the end of marriage when they take for granted the remarriage of widows after the death of the spouse.This seems like the description of an annulment, not a divorce- If the grace was not received then there simply is no sacrament- No grace, no sacrament, that’s always the case even with other sacraments. Like I said, I fnd it very interesting. I wonder what the underlying reasoning is for the E.O view of marriage and it’s nature.

Those websites expalin what you ask.

 

[Cat]

I’m not usually one to mind when topics wander away from the subject, but in this case, I am kind of eager to read less comments about teachings of orthodoxy and more comments about why evangelical Protestants are becoming Catholic, since that is what happened with me and my husband.

Thanks.

BTW, my husband said that the main reason why evangelical Protestants are more willing to convert to Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism is that the Orthodox do not have one pope. This means that the former evangelical Protestant can continue to be his/her own pope rather than submitting to one man.