Why Evangelicals are returning

[GaryTaylor]

Well religious freedom and Obamacare has certainly placed it all under the spotlight once again. Seems to me Protestants see a need for change here in the Evangelical realm, perhaps not as much as mainline.

Lot if ignorance still with this also. Also people just don’t clearly think this through on a thought by throught basis.

Unfortunate is takes such extremes for some to understand the severity of todays problems.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I regret my error. Sorry. I made an incorrect assumption by taking the words at face value. But I have to ask: which marriage? Or will the love of all three Orthodox marriages (if they occur) endure in the afterlife?

I regret also that you feel I am attacking Orthodoxy. I’m merely stating the reasons why I (born and raised Protestant) made the choice to became Catholic and not Orthodox, and some Protestants (Evangelicals) have made the choice to become Orthodox and not Catholic – because of the possibility of remarriage and permission to contracept with the blessing of the Orthodox Churches.

Peace be with you.

Imagine that a person is widowed and remarries, does her love for her first husband die? Surely what Jesus meant in Matthew 22 wasn’t that our relationships are completely severed in the age to come, but that the marital relationship will no longer exist because we will come to love each other in a different fashion. That is to say that in the age to come, we will experience a unity which is completely beyond what we can comprehend now. That doesn’t imply, however, that the actual bonds we have created with other persons, be they spouses, family, or friends, will be broken in the age to come, but that they will all be transformed into the true love that they were a foretaste of in life.

 

[summer1052]

IMHO, many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (as they differentiate themselves) are attracted to Orthodoxy as a “heavy form of Protestantism” in fact. But I have yet to see on this thread (and mea culpa if I missed it.) WHY, and from WHERE that comes.

Both Protestants and Orthodoxy reject the supremacy of Peter and the bishopric of Rome as penultimate.

Many Protestants believe Orthodoxy is (marginally) acceptable because they were the “first” so called “reformers” of church “error” and broke with Rome.

And many, many, if not most, Protestants fully believe Luther was trying to correct OFFICIAL CHURCH DOCTRINE, not MISTAKEN PRACTICES by under-educated, misguided, fallible, human priests.

My children can go to school and tell the teachers that I am the worst Mom ever, mean, awful, and never do ANYTHING for them, because I don’t let them watch Spongebob like their friends do, punished them for misbehavior, and would not feed them chocolate cake for breakfast.

In their hearts, everything they said was absolutely true based on their understanding of my motives and teaching.

Of course, my teaching and motives were to keep them from the influence of television which I hold will harm them and set a poor example of life, corrected their behavior so they can learn to act appropriately, and feed them a healthy meal so they can be safe, strong, and well. This is my care and duty as a mother to this flock of kiddos.

But neither my children, nor their teachers are going to remove them(selves) to the care of Child Protective Services and start a new family for this. Which is, in essence, what Luther did.

Had I beaten, starved, abused and neglected my children, that would be different. But that’s another thread.

The reasons Protestants reconcile to Orthodoxy and Catholicism – technically, only non-Christians convert – are as individual and varied as the people themselves.

I am interested in learning the Latin Mass, but only because now I understand it well in English. I know very little Latin, but do know some Greek from years of Protestant Bible study. I live in a rural area, and there are many small churches in old, painted, European styles due to the large immigration of Central Europeans here a century ago. Much like I saw in Europe, there are wood floors, no padding, stained glass, and knee dents on the kneelers are standard. The parish church in town is modern, with carpeting, padded kneelers, and air conditioning. I am comfortable in both. And our Associate Pastor, a gifted musician, sings the Mass. It is the love I feel in the church – the Body of Christ – not the buildings that heals my soul.

We can paint generalities with a broad brush here (mixing metaphors with abandon ) but let’s be careful to remember they are not absolutes. Nor are they validation for Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy vs Whatever. God calls all of us to the same Home. But we are all given different maps and start at different places on the path. Of course our journeys will be different. Shouldn’t they be?

With Love,
Summer

 

[Marybeloved]

It is not divorce but remarriage when a previous valid, sacramental marriage still exists that is problematic. What God has joined together . . .

Yes, I understand that. What I meant was that the quotation was actually describing a situation where there was no sacrament of marriage (no grace)- That quotation is describing this as “divorce” when it’s really an annulment.

 

[Hesychios]

But, nevertheless, the Orthodox Churches permits two divorces and three marriages. But not a fourth!

You mis-stated this twice.

The first time you said three divorces are allowed, this time you say two divorces are allowed, neither is correct.

Sometimes, in the case of a divorce, the injured party may be allowed to remarry by economy. This would not normally be allowed to the guilty party of a failed marriage and may be allowed to the innocent party once.

This is especially helpful to the abandoned spouse with younger children, and helps keep the family plugged in to church life.

In the event of death, people are allowed to remarry, and some wish to. It is conceivable then, for a third marriage to take place in some cases, but it is not common. Since the RC and as far as I know all churches allow remarriage after the death of a spouse this doesn’t really factor in as anything different.

The practice of a second marriage (in the event of abandonment or some such case) pre-dates the schism, so it would have actually been the practice of the eastern Catholics ‘under’ the Pope, if indeed they really were under the Pope as some claim.

The western church chose to nullify it’s own sacrament after a marriage fails (not usually before it fails, when people might like to know they are not really married and fix ithe problem, but after the civil courts have weighed in), and pretend it never happened. The eastern churches do not normally nullify the sacrament, and have no plans to start doing so.

 

[Cavaradossi]

It’s worth repeating that the limitation of three marriages applies to all circumstances, not just to divorce. Even if it was the case that all of one’s spouses died, once the third marriage is terminated, no further marriages may be obtained canonically. This was the underlying cause of the tenth-century Moechian controversy, for example, when Emperor Leo VI illicitly obtained a fourth marriage after the death of his third wife. His marriage was only recognized by the Eastern clergy after he served a penance and outlawed fourth marriages.

 

[Hesychios]

IMHO, many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists (as they differentiate themselves) are attracted to Orthodoxy as a “heavy form of Protestantism” in fact. But I have yet to see on this thread (and mea culpa if I missed it.) WHY, and from WHERE that comes.

Both Protestants and Orthodoxy reject the supremacy of Peter and the bishopric of Rome as penultimate.

Many Protestants believe Orthodoxy is (marginally) acceptable because they were the “first” so called “reformers” of church “error” and broke with Rome…

This has no basis whatever in historical fact. Believing such mythology seems to comfort some Roman Catholics.

 

[CopticChristian]

This has no basis whatever in historical fact. Believing such mythology seems to comfort some Roman Catholics.

I learned lots about Divorce, Death, Marriage, annulment and other stuff however I am not sure how this relates to why Evangelicals are returning…they have enough issues with Divorce…the Protestant cry I recall was …God hates divorce and they do it…

Maybe they are returning because there are some rules and regulations about divorce in Orthodoxy and the OHCAC that is different that just God hates Divorce…

 

[Cavaradossi]

This has no basis whatever in historical fact. Believing such mythology seems to comfort some Roman Catholics.

In fact, many protestants (especially of the reformed traditions) see the Orthodox as being further in error than they see the Roman Catholics, because Orthodox teachings on free will appear to them to be “semi-pelagian”, and the Orthodox teachings on the trinity appear to them to be “subordinationism”. Calvin’s triple autotheos is far more incompatible with Orthodox triadology than it is with Catholic triadology.

 

[Marybeloved]

In fact, many protestants (especially of the reformed traditions) see the Orthodox as being further in error than they see the Roman Catholics, because Orthodox teachings on free will appear to them to be “semi-pelagian”, and the Orthodox teachings on the trinity appear to them to be “subordinationism”. Calvin’s triple autotheos is far more incompatible with Orthodox triadology than it is with Catholic triadology.

Most protestants I know will put up with almost anything other than the papacy.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Most protestants I know will put up with almost anything other than the papacy.

But the problem is that this mentality reduces Orthodoxy to being Catholicism minus the papacy, which it is not. That is why I find it incredible and somewhat demeaning that Catholics should make the assertion that Protestants join Orthodoxy because they want “Catholicism without the pope” or “Catholicism without teaching X”. Orthodoxy is not just Catholicism lite, and I don’t understand for the life of me why some Catholics seem to have this understanding of it. Surely I wouldn’t assert that Protestants join Catholicism because they want Orthodoxy without fasting for 200 days of the year, Orthodoxy with a shorter liturgy, or Orthodoxy without the heavily integrated liturgical use of icons (which appears to many Protestants to be idolatrous), but people on this very thread are doing that exact thing in reverse.

 

[mitex]

It’s the Evangelical converts who have been making the Church more conservative…

 

[Marybeloved]

But the problem is that this mentality reduces Orthodoxy to being Catholicism minus the papacy, which it is not. That is why I find it incredible and somewhat demeaning that Catholics should make the assertion that Protestants join Orthodoxy because they want “Catholicism without the pope” or “Catholicism without teaching X”. Orthodoxy is not just Catholicism lite, and I don’t understand for the life of me why some Catholics seem to have this understanding of it. Surely I wouldn’t assert that Protestants join Catholicism because they want Orthodoxy without fasting for 200 days of the year, Orthodoxy with a shorter liturgy, or Orthodoxy without the heavily integrated liturgical use of icons (which appears to many Protestants to be idolatrous), but people on this very thread are doing that exact thing in reverse.

It’s not about “Catholicism” minus the Pope, at-least that’s not my point, though I’m pretty sure that there are those who may convert for such reasons. What I’m saying is, for many, the papacy and the historical “Anything but Catholic” attitude is too much of a stumbling block for them that it is decisive or very influential in their journeys. Conversion stories to Catholicism from former backgrounds with anti-catholic undertones always show this true horror that the whore of Babylon is even an option. Orthodoxy is far enough removed from protestantism to have this kind of historical baggage. I’m sure that tonnes of protestants who chose Orthodoxy do so simply because they see it as the One true Church.

 

[onemangang]

In fact, many protestants (especially of the reformed traditions) see the Orthodox as being further in error than they see the Roman Catholics, because Orthodox teachings on free will appear to them to be “semi-pelagian”, and the Orthodox teachings on the trinity appear to them to be “subordinationism”. Calvin’s triple autotheos is far more incompatible with Orthodox triadology than it is with Catholic triadology.

Many Evangelicals I know, have no idea what Eastern Orthodoxy is. The ones who have heard of it, refer to the Eastern Orthodox Churches, as Catholic without a pope. Matter of fact, when I left Protestantism, I was undecided between Eastern Orthodox, and Catholic, I took a friend to a Russian Orthodox Church to see the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, (being that I was drawn to the continuity of a liturgical communion with the early Church). He was more turned off to the Orthodox Churches, than the Latin Right Catholic Church. Why? Because of his tradition, he has never been exposed to the Ancient Faith. Not that Catholicism is not an ancient faith, but the liturgical practice of Latin Rite Catholicism is recognizable to Evangelicals. The Eastern Churches are not so recognizable to Evangelicals, because, for the most part, they (evangelicals) have removed themselves from Historical Christianity. As a matter of fact, every evangelical I talk to is more turned off by the Eastern Orthodox Church than the Latin Rite Catholic Church. Most say they (Orthodox Churches) are worst than the Catholic’s with their Icon “idol Worship”, “incense”, and “vain repetitious prayers”. I find that many Evangelicals are oblivious to the Eastern Orthodox Churches liturgy and theology. Those Evangelicals that come from a penal substitution view of atonement, or any debt payed to an angry God, tend to find a home in Catholicism, from what I see anyways, while the ones that are more “free will to choose Christ” are more comfortable in Eastern Orthodoxy. Either way, one must be “deep in history” to find a home in either Church. So, I feel that many who convert to Catholicism, (in America) have has little exposure to the Eastern Churches.

So, Catholics get attacked for their theology (or a caricature of it anyways) while the Orthodox Churches get the stigma of association to Catholics, however, if you take an Evangelical to a Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy, the East will be hated on, just as much, if not more than the Catholic Church by many evangelicals!

Peace and Love in Christ!
He is Risen!!!

 

[stewstew03]

It’s the Evangelical converts who have been making the Church more conservative…

So - Church doctrine has changed as a result of protestant evangelicals?

 

[Cat]

So - Church doctrine has changed as a result of protestant evangelicals?

The doctrine hasn’t changed as a result of Protestant evangelicals. Doctrine in the Catholic Church is changed only through the Magisterium, not because of popular demand. That’s one thing I love about the Catholic Church–the loudest voice doesn’t necessarily win out.

But I agree that evangelical Protestants who convert to Catholicism often do so because they’re sick of wishy-washy theology in their churches, and they want the traditional Christian teachings about abortion, homosexuality, co-habitation, ordination of women to the pastorate, etc. upheld in their Church. Because of their experience in various ministries in their churches, they are confident enough and eager to get involved and speak up in their parishes when these issues come up for discussion. In this way, they “hold” the Catholic Church to a more conservative theology–and I say, Hooray!

I don’t agree that evangelical Protestants are pressuring the Church to return to “conservative” or “traditional” practices. I know that some evangelical Protestants, at least some of the ones who actively post on CAF, enjoy the various ancient traditions of the Church (Latin Mass, Latin in the OF, various styles of ancient music, veiling, kneeling to receive Holy Communion, etc.), but all of the evangelical Protestant converts to Catholicism that I know personally prefer the more modern practices. This is JMO based on my personal experiences, and I realize that others have different experiences that they bring to the table here on CAF.

 

[stewstew03]

The doctrine hasn’t changed as a result of Protestant evangelicals. Doctrine in the Catholic Church is changed only through the Magisterium, not because of popular demand. That’s one thing I love about the Catholic Church–the loudest voice doesn’t necessarily win out.

But I agree that evangelical Protestants who convert to Catholicism often do so because they’re sick of wishy-washy theology in their churches, and they want the traditional Christian teachings about abortion, homosexuality, co-habitation, ordination of women to the pastorate, etc. upheld in their Church. Because of their experience in various ministries in their churches, they are confident enough and eager to get involved and speak up in their parishes when these issues come up for discussion. In this way, they “hold” the Catholic Church to a more conservative theology–and I say, Hooray!

I don’t agree that evangelical Protestants are pressuring the Church to return to “conservative” or “traditional” practices. I know that some evangelical Protestants, at least some of the ones who actively post on CAF, enjoy the various ancient traditions of the Church (Latin Mass, Latin in the OF, various styles of ancient music, veiling, kneeling to receive Holy Communion, etc.), but all of the evangelical Protestant converts to Catholicism that I know personally prefer the more modern practices. This is JMO based on my personal experiences, and I realize that others have different experiences that they bring to the table here on CAF.

Agreed.

I recall reading one of your posts where you described your conversion story - mine is very similar (except, unfortunately, my wife is still a southern baptist)…

 

[Alfonsus]

And remember… when we talk about Eastern, Byzantine tradition is not the only Eastern one. To be honest, a Protestant turn Eastern need also to search and delve into the many Eastern tradition out there, which although similar it is not exactly the same in term of worship and theology. Sadly, like most Catholics, they don’t know enough about Eastern Christianity except perhaps, the Byzantine tradition.

 

[summer1052]

Cavaradossi, my friend –

I’m sorry I didn’t make myself more clear.

Yes, Orthodoxy is NOT “Catholicism without the Pope”. You are quite right to point that out.

But I was speaking from the Evangelical perspective, that was summed up so eloquently by Marybeloved. There is a sizable chunk of Evangelical Protestantism that would rather be ANYTHING but “Papist”, or acknowledge the authority of Rome.

Many of the mainline Protestant denominations have governing bodies, councils, authorities. These people seem to have less concern about the Papacy. But many of the Evangelical churches have no governing bodies, each congregation being autonomous. For these folks, the idea of the Papacy and Magesterium are anathema. Let’s acknowledge it for what it is. There is a strong anti-Catholic bias among these people that they themselves don’t even recognize. And most of what they dislike about Catholics are based on misunderstandings of Catholic teaching. So sad.

On my own journey I went through every denomination in the phone book, checked out a few cults, and started visiting Buddhists, Hindu, and Wicca. Then I checked out Orthodoxy. Which, despite the large metro area I lived in, was harder to chase down. I visited, was totally lost, and no one bothered to even speak to me. (Bad hair day, I guess. But it did nothing to make me feel welcome.) The second time I visited, I was corrected on all my mistakes (legion!) but no welcome or hospitality. I went a third time, then tried to contact the pastor to meet and talk and ask questions – and never got a call back. I always had a sense that this was for cultural Greeks, not Other Christians Seeking Orthodoxy. Just my subjective opinion.

After all that, I finally checked out the Catholics. (The only ones I skipped were Hare Krishna.) They had the answers I was looking for, and it was terrible! After all that anti-Catholic upbringing, and THEY have what I was looking for?!?! yikes!

I know now that there were several eastern churches in the area, but I knew nothing about them. It’s been a long journey, but we’re all on one.

I was just trying to help those unfamiliar with Evangelical thinking understand a bit more of the mind set. I did not intend to characterize Orthodoxy as anything less than what it is: An ancient, beautiful, and rich treasury of Christ’s Body on earth.

With love,
Summer

 

[babTheathhago]

hello
seen here on forums.catholic-questions.org someone has described it in the topic , but is not quite true , that’s addition.
I fully share your opinion. I like your idea . I propose to make to the general discussion.
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