Why evolution doesnt matter.

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warpspeedpetey

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there are a number of posts on evolution, and they seem to draw the most attention, which seems funny to me in that Catholics are free to accept or not the ideas of evolution. of course we are not biblical literalists, that is a feature of protestant Christianity. evolution represents a threat to their literal reading of Scripture and thereby their existence, in that the defining precept of protestantism is Sola Scriptura or only the information contained in cannonized Scripture, matters. this is their main seperation from us and therefore evolution is a threat to their very survival.

evolution is not however, a threat to us. it can be absolutely true and still have nothing to do with matters of faith, cosmogony, or Catholicism. ergo, our freedom to accept

that said, evolution in its entirety has several flaws, which i think people like to talk about, abiogenesis, holes in the fossil record, irreducible complexity. all of which make for interesting discussion. (yes, ive heard the arguments back and forth, and no, i dont care to hear more)

but in the end, evolution, one way or the other doesnt matter. **its 13.7 billion years too late. **it says nothing more interesting about faith than “wow, G-d works in mysterious ways”, it doesnt affect the issue of G-ds existence in any way at all.

so evolution simply doesnt matter. 🤷
 
… unless you deal with taxonomy 😉
But seriously, I agree very much with your assessment. 🙂
 
Agreed, the bible certainly doesn’t specify exactly how man was created, what is important though is that
  1. all modern humans have one set of common ancestors Adam & Eve
  2. We inherit original sin from this set of common ancestors
Could God have created man via an evelutionary process then infuse a sole at the appropriate time with the new creature being in Eden at the time of the infusion? Sure. Now that said, to my mind pure evolution, pure survival of the fittest quite simply works. The more you look at it objectivly the more holes you discover in a universe ruled by nothing other than suvival of the fittest.
 
People want to know about creation because it comes from God, and reflects his nature. The search for knowledge is an act of love toward creation. We do not have desires or loves that come from Satan, who can create nothing. They, in their most basic form, are from God, and he gives us a natural intellectual curiosity for a reason.

St Thomas had a good dose of that intellectual curiosity toward creation, and that is why he could come to the understanding of God that he did. There is no reason to think the same principle does not hold true today. Contemplation of creation leads ua to the divine.

The other way to look at it is the fundamentalist perspective. It holds for all fundamentalists, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims… it says there is no need for anything but Scripture, since it tells us all we need to know about God. Burn the rest.
 
The teaching of Mother Church is that evolution is a physical theory and has no religious implications to us. Now when several “celebrity atheists" shove ideology into the mix then we have some problems. Evolution per se doesn’t matter in the slightest, and the Church declares that this matter is not in her competence, and she tells us to look to the scientific community.

End of story:thumbsup:
 
there are a number of posts on evolution, and they seem to draw the most attention, which seems funny to me in that Catholics are free to accept or not the ideas of evolution. of course we are not biblical literalists, that is a feature of protestant Christianity. evolution represents a threat to their literal reading of Scripture and thereby their existence, in that the defining precept of protestantism is Sola Scriptura or only the information contained in cannonized Scripture, matters. this is their main seperation from us and therefore evolution is a threat to their very survival.

evolution is not however, a threat to us. it can be absolutely true and still have nothing to do with matters of faith, cosmogony, or Catholicism. ergo, our freedom to accept

that said, evolution in its entirety has several flaws, which i think people like to talk about, abiogenesis, holes in the fossil record, irreducible complexity. all of which make for interesting discussion. (yes, ive heard the arguments back and forth, and no, i dont care to hear more)

but in the end, evolution, one way or the other doesnt matter. **its 13.7 billion years too late. **it says nothing more interesting about faith than “wow, G-d works in mysterious ways”, it doesnt affect the issue of G-ds existence in any way at all.

so evolution simply doesnt matter. 🤷
It matters very much. In the document Communion and Stewardship, if such a thing as evolution happened, God was very much involved. To say it doesn’t matter does not explain at least one encyclical and various other documents and articles published by the Church over the years. There are certain things in the Deposit of Faith that contradict a purely natural explanation of human origins, and it has nothing to do with Protestantism. Sadly, too many Catholics are unaware of what the Deposit of Faith contains. Divine revelation cannot be discarded.

Peace,
Ed
 
The teaching of Mother Church is that evolution is a physical theory and has no religious implications to us. Now when several “celebrity atheists" shove ideology into the mix then we have some problems. Evolution per se doesn’t matter in the slightest, and the Church declares that this matter is not in her competence, and she tells us to look to the scientific community.

End of story:thumbsup:
Incorrect. Pope Benedict had to tell us that we “must have the audacity” to say something.

bringyou.to/apologetics/p81.htm

Pope Benedict XVI

Monod nonetheless finds the possibility for evolution in the fact that in the very propagation of the project there can be mistakes in the act of transmission. Because nature is conservative, these mistakes, once having come into existence, are carried on. Such mistakes can add up, and from the adding up of mistakes something new can arise. Now an astonishing conclusion follows: It was in this way that the whole world of living creatures, and human beings themselves, came into existence. We are the product of “haphazard mistakes.”

What response shall we make to this view? It is the affair of the natural sciences to explain how the tree of life in particular continues to grow and how new branches shoot out from it. This is not a matter for faith. But we must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love. They can disclose in themselves, in the bold project that they are, the language of the creating Intelligence that speaks to them and that moves them to say: Yes, Father, you have willed me.

Peace,
Ed

not the products of chance and error
 
but in the end, evolution, one way or the other doesnt matter. **its 13.7 billion years too late. **it says nothing more interesting about faith than “wow, G-d works in mysterious ways”, it doesnt affect the issue of G-ds existence in any way at all.

so evolution simply doesnt matter. 🤷
In the context you put it, understanding evolution is insignificant.

But in terms of the advance of science and our understanding of the world, is that true?
God commanded we “subdue the earth”. Advances in science is one way this is accomplished. By understanding our orgin and evolution, does that advance science for the betterment of the human race in any way? I think so.
 
there are a number of posts on evolution, and they seem to draw the most attention, which seems funny to me in that Catholics are free to accept or not the ideas of evolution. of course we are not biblical literalists, that is a feature of protestant Christianity. evolution represents a threat to their literal reading of Scripture and thereby their existence, in that the defining precept of protestantism is Sola Scriptura or only the information contained in cannonized Scripture, matters. this is their main seperation from us and therefore evolution is a threat to their very survival.

evolution is not however, a threat to us. it can be absolutely true and still have nothing to do with matters of faith, cosmogony, or Catholicism. ergo, our freedom to accept

that said, evolution in its entirety has several flaws, which i think people like to talk about, abiogenesis, holes in the fossil record, irreducible complexity. all of which make for interesting discussion. (yes, ive heard the arguments back and forth, and no, i dont care to hear more)

but in the end, evolution, one way or the other doesnt matter. **its 13.7 billion years too late. **it says nothing more interesting about faith than “wow, G-d works in mysterious ways”, it doesnt affect the issue of G-ds existence in any way at all.

so evolution simply doesnt matter. 🤷
I think your statement about the compatibility of orthodox Christian belief and the embrace of evolutionary theory is correct. So far as I can see, no contradiction between them obtains. I have Catholic friends who are both devout with respect to Church doctrine and fully supportive of modern evolutionary theory, and I find the theodicy and theology that proceed from that more elegant and robust than special-creationist alternatives. If one is going to proceed under the irrational assumptions of Christian theism in the first place, that seems to be a fairly rational way of proceeding from there. In any case, it doesn’t place those Christians in the mental ditch so many drive themselves into with the anti-evolutionary bent, denying reason and evidence in abundance for evolutionary theory.

Even so, I think you are dismissing the problem in a very simplistic fashion. While I just affirmed that evolution and orthodox Christian doctrine are compatible, evolution is nevertheless quite toxic in many cases to support for Christian belief. Many Catholics, for instance, have maintained a kind of faithful theistic evolution throughout their lives, but for many others, evolution seriously undermines faith in God because it in a significant sense makes God superfluous, an afterthought, an unnecessary part of the explanation.

I think that explains why so many Catholics here militate against the evidence and the facts on the ground concerning evolution. The objection is NOT that evolution cannot be harmonized with Catholic doctrine – manifestly, it can be – but rather that evolution betrays a basic conceit many believers have about their status as humans. Christian theology exalts mankind in an ontological sense – only man is imprinted with the imago dei, only man has the reasoning faculties to apprehend natural law and the noetic facilities for knowing God in a spiritual sense.

Man is fallen, but that “fallenness” itself is proof of man’s ontological primacy in the world; there is hubris in supposing man had somewhere to fall from in the first place.

As Christian, I know I was guilty of this conceit. And while evolution does not and cannot discredit the idea that God made the universe, and utlimately designed the world so that man would be man, in such form that he might enventually be invested with a soul, fashioned in some dualistic way in God’s image, evolution as a mechanical, natural process really takes the pride out of human exceptionalism. Darwin’s dangerous idea was that we are animals in the most thoroughgoing sense, cousins of the chimpanzee and relatives of the lowly cabbage, or even the most virulent bacteria, if we are to trace our lineage back far enough.

I suggest to you that some of the draw of Christian faith – not all of it, but some – obtains from this intuitive desire to classify oneself, one’s kind as “special”. Not just special in some parochial sense, but “cosmically special”. Catholicism can still cater to this innate inclination, but it’s a lot harder to cater to through the filter of evolutionary theory. Evolution places man as an ordinary leaf, like all the other leaves, or a very large and ancient tree. Many have a conceit grounded in the idea that man was “formed from the dust” in some special, hands-on way – a custom job, or as they would say in the UK, “bespoke”.

Evolution works right against this conceit, and while doctrine and faith can be maintained in embracing it, evolution just kills a lot of the joy of the “specialness” many believers are enamored of. If evolution is true, God may still be the Creator, the one forming man with the imago dei, somehow, but it sure does look more remote and mechanistic than it used to. And of course, it continually provides the idea that this is just how things would look if God were imaginary, and that’s something many believers understand, and resist strongly on those grounds.

-TS
 
To Touchstone -

If you wish to believe you are simply the end product of a chemically derived mechanism, that is up to you.

The Christian understanding of man is rooted in the revelation of God. The hubris of man comes in when all holy books are reduced to simply books of stories invented by man. Then the old words return: “Man is the measure of all things.” and “Man invents himself.”

In the Bible, we are told the following: If Christ’s ressurection did not actually occur, your faith is in vain. You’ve got nothing.

In the early 80’s an “underground” newspaper had the following cover story: Easter Cancelled. Christ’s body found. A recent attempt to revive this idea was presented on TV as the discovery of an osuary containing Christ’s bones. Catholics know why this is going on and why it must continue. The truth is difficult to find on the internet and in everyday life.

I am watching attempts to establish a Dictatorship of Science, but like all human enterprises, it is in danger of being manipulated and is, in fact, being manipulated. Just ask Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and Myers. It is all out in the open. There is nothing vague about their pronouncements.

Peace,
Ed
 
there are a number of posts on evolution, and they seem to draw the most attention, which seems funny to me in that Catholics are free to accept or not the ideas of evolution. of course we are not biblical literalists, that is a feature of protestant Christianity. evolution represents a threat to their literal reading of Scripture and thereby their existence, in that the defining precept of protestantism is Sola Scriptura or only the information contained in cannonized Scripture, matters. this is their main seperation from us and therefore evolution is a threat to their very survival.

evolution is not however, a threat to us. it can be absolutely true and still have nothing to do with matters of faith, cosmogony, or Catholicism. ergo, our freedom to accept

that said, evolution in its entirety has several flaws, which i think people like to talk about, abiogenesis, holes in the fossil record, irreducible complexity. all of which make for interesting discussion. (yes, ive heard the arguments back and forth, and no, i dont care to hear more)

but in the end, evolution, one way or the other doesnt matter. **its 13.7 billion years too late. **it says nothing more interesting about faith than “wow, G-d works in mysterious ways”, it doesnt affect the issue of G-ds existence in any way at all.

so evolution simply doesnt matter. 🤷
I agree. 👍
 
Incorrect. Pope Benedict had to tell us that we “must have the audacity” to say something.

bringyou.to/apologetics/p81.htm

Pope Benedict XVI
Monod nonetheless finds the possibility for evolution in the fact that in the very propagation of the project there can be mistakes in the act of transmission. Because nature is conservative, these mistakes, once having come into existence, are carried on. Such mistakes can add up, and from the adding up of mistakes something new can arise. Now an astonishing conclusion follows: It was in this way that the whole world of living creatures, and human beings themselves, came into existence. We are the product of “haphazard mistakes.”

What response shall we make to this view? It is the affair of the natural sciences to explain how the tree of life in particular continues to grow and how new branches shoot out from it. This is not a matter for faith. But we must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love. They can disclose in themselves, in the bold project that they are, the language of the creating Intelligence that speaks to them and that moves them to say: Yes, Father, you have willed me.

Peace,
Ed

not the products of chance and error

Agreed, it is a matter of seperating the science from the ideology.
 
… unless you deal with taxonomy 😉
But seriously, I agree very much with your assessment. 🙂
i suppose that you are refering to my well known distaste for anthropomorphism. of course we are taxonomically animals. i dont have a problem with that.
 
Agreed, the bible certainly doesn’t specify exactly how man was created, what is important though is that
  1. all modern humans have one set of common ancestors Adam & Eve
  2. We inherit original sin from this set of common ancestors
Could God have created man via an evelutionary process then infuse a sole at the appropriate time with the new creature being in Eden at the time of the infusion? Sure. Now that said, to my mind pure evolution, pure survival of the fittest quite simply works. The more you look at it objectivly the more holes you discover in a universe ruled by nothing other than suvival of the fittest.
does anyone say Poof! there is a whole taxonomical group of humans?
 
i suppose that you are refering to my well known distaste for anthropomorphism. of course we are taxonomically animals. i dont have a problem with that.
Oh not at all, I was just pointing out that *some *people would find evolution important for their job 😉
 
The other way to look at it is the fundamentalist perspective. It holds for all fundamentalists, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims… it says there is no need for anything but Scripture, since it tells us all we need to know about God. Burn the rest.
i can assure you that Sola Scriptura is not a Catholic doctrine. not even for fundamentalist Catholics.
 
does anyone say Poof! there is a whole taxonomical group of humans?
Hrm, lol sorry a little slow today I guess. Not sure what you’re getting at. Though for my part, I guess I’m saying I have no problem with the idea that we could have evolved from a lower species, and I have no problem with the idea that evolution could be happening today.

What I do have a problem with is this:

That the universe came about with out the assitance of God, or that the pure laws of natural selection actually work in nature. If it does, then how do you explain creatures which have exsisted for thousands (millions?) of years for no purpose, other than to die by being eaten by others. I’m not talking about herbavors in general, I’m talking about the “ecology boosters” Critters like Fish Flies. You get millions of these suckers emerging every spring, and their only purpose is to be eaten. In fact they live 24 hours, they also specifically seek out very well lit area’s in which to just sit, and wait to die. And no, they’re not camofloged. They litterally exist to die, now is that survival of the fittest? should nature not say “well… ok on second thought maybe that was a bad idea”.
 
The teaching of Mother Church is that evolution is a physical theory and has no religious implications to us. Now when several “celebrity atheists" shove ideology into the mix then we have some problems. Evolution per se doesn’t matter in the slightest, and the Church declares that this matter is not in her competence, and she tells us to look to the scientific community.

End of story:thumbsup:
yeah, i always wondered what Dawkins thought the implications for Christianity evolution holds. thats the main reason i could never take him seriously.
 
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