Why follow Luther, Calvin , and Wesley, and not Jesus Christ?

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Oh calm down Why all the threats. Jesus Founded the Catholic Church. Catholic means universal. universal Christian church Not the Roman Catholic church as it is today or as it was back before and during the reformation period. They ex comunicated Luther because he spoke up and chalenged them and After they kicked him out they adopted several of his ideas. You can Thank Martin Luther each Sunday when you par take in the Eucharist. Thanks to him The layity was able to again recieve The Eucharist.
Also After he got the boot he married the former nun. If your not a priest any longer you can marry if you want.
You are a typical anti-Catholic. Your information is so wrong it isn’t funny. Thank Luther each Sunday?? You are a seriously, angry person toward the Catholic church. There were no indulgences sold, and Luther was a Heretic. He never even believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
EVERYTHING WAS CATHOLIC prior to Luther. EVERYTHING. The word ‘Catholic’ was first spoken by St. Ignatius in the year 107. And universal means from Jesus to the Apostles, to EVERYONE WHO FOLLOWS THEM. And that was Catholic.
 
You are a typical anti-Catholic. Your information is so wrong it isn’t funny. Thank Luther each Sunday?? You are a seriously, angry person toward the Catholic church. There were no indulgences sold, and Luther was a Heretic. He never even believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
EVERYTHING WAS CATHOLIC prior to Luther. EVERYTHING. The word ‘Catholic’ was first spoken by St. Ignatius in the year 107. And universal means from Jesus to the Apostles, to EVERYONE WHO FOLLOWS THEM. And that was Catholic.
You DO NOT KNOW ME AT ALL SO STOP ASSUMING SO MUCH!! why not just come up here to the northwest a kill me if you want If you can find me Righteousone. Maybe it should be self righteousone. You had better learn your history and not believe everything Father Mulcahy says.
 
I was a former protestant. (just went through RCIA) and to be honest, I had NO idea that everything was JUST catholic before Luther. I had NO idea Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church. I knew he founded Christianity though.

I remember when my husband and I were still dating several years ago, we all had an “argument” about Catholicism. He, his brother and his cousin were all claiming that Jesus founded Catholicism. I thought they were just plain crazy!

After learning the truth, I thought to myself, “How could I not be anything but Catholic?”

So, I think lack of knowledge is a lot of the reason why many protestants practice their faith.
No truer words. I was in the same boat.

There was no teaching on who Luther, Calvin and the rest were, and what they did, only that they were the heroes that saved us from Rome. It was never discussed, nor taught in the manner of history be presented.

I truely felt lied to… like I had been denied a `heritage’. It really felt as though I found out I was some long, lost prince. However, please note!.. I do not hate my protestant teachers, deacons (as I was one) and fellow worshippers. There is a trememndous love for God and certainly, a strong emphasis on the study of Scripture in the Protestant churches that (dare I say it?) could be beneficial to practice as catholics. There is also a strong sense of evangelism(sp) taught from conversion on.

However, I must confess, when examining the catholic church, I found myself driving a Vega (as being Baptist), when I could have been driving a fully loaded Lexus (being a Catholic). (Imagine your own automotive choices… you get the idea.) I truly feel I was getting there, but the power wasnt plugged in. Confession and the Blessed Sacrement alone are the greatest advantage for me personally! (Please note, I said personally!) I was also taken by finding that indeed, we are sensate creatures! That we will rejoice AND suffer! That we can see, feel, hear and even smell (incense, candles, the flowers!) and even taste (by virtue of the Eucharist) the Church. We are human, no? We have the senses God gave us, no? Its logical that our God would utilise every means available to him (and for us!) to bring us closer to Him.

I think much of what happened after Luther/Calvin was an intentional demonization to justify positions taken against HMC. To be sure, what started out as reasonable and justifiable questions of ethics and church practices (indulgences, 95(?) thesis) turned ugly when the political temperature in Germany was ripe for its fermentation. Bottom line: things got ugly. Histories got written from both sides. Until I read the HMC side, I had NO idea it had ever transpired. I’d been told about Luther’s protest', and that he was the hero. I was told Sola Scriptura’!.. I was not told of the Magesterium and the Sacred Tradition that had been agreed upon for 1500 years previous. I was NOT told Luther wanted Marian devotion kept, and the epistle of James tossed.

There is blame on both sides, but when the weights are placed on the scale, 1500 years of a church founded by Jesus Christ outweighed the complaints of the few who rallied support from political and civil sources. Did God want this to happen? I don’t think so. Did He let it happen? Yes… men and woman have free will. Just remember… God has free will too.

Perhaps, this suffering the Church has gone through will make the Unity Jesus prayed for all the sweeter.

Now THERES a thought!

Let’s pray for it, but I warn you all: be careful what you pray for… you just might get it!👍
 
You DO NOT KNOW ME AT ALL SO STOP ASSUMING SO MUCH!! why not just come up here to the northwest a kill me if you want If you can find me Righteousone. Maybe it should be self righteousone. You had better learn your history and not believe everything Father Mulcahy says.
Who is Father Mulcahy??? I go by the HISTORY OF MY CHURCH.
I go by THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS. I go by SCRIPTURE.
Even Protestants realize this. YOU need to learn history my friend. An ex-Catholic always has an axe to grind…
 
Perhaps, this suffering the Church has gone through will make the Unity Jesus prayed for all the sweeter.

Now THERES a thought!

Let’s pray for it, but I warn you all: be careful what you pray for… you just might get it!👍
Edmund,
I appreciate your comments. I’ll pray for unity with you, and I’ll take what the HS gives us. No warning needed.
Thanks,
Jon
 
Which biography? There are multiple biographies of Luther with a variety of viewpoints.
 
Luther’s biography…can’t get much better than that.:rolleyes:
So, you’re saying that in a biography of Luther he is quoted denying the real presence of the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist? Who is the author, what is the title?

The reason I ask is that in all the Lutheran Confessions, written by Luther or not, and in all the readings I have done about Luther, I have never once read that he ever denied the real presence, much less that he, as you say, **never **believed in it ( which would have made it difficult from him to have been a Catholic monk, I might add). In fact, his biggest argument with Zwingli was over this very subject. Zwingli denied the real presence, Luther defended it.

But I will tell you this, if you can produce a quote by Luther denying or rejecting the real presence, that will move me to the brink of RCIA.

In closing, I offer this from Dave Armstrong.

socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/06/martin-luther-refutes-zwingli-other.html

Jon
 
So, you’re saying that in a biography of Luther he is quoted denying the real presence of the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist? Who is the author, what is the title?

The reason I ask is that in all the Lutheran Confessions, written by Luther or not, and in all the readings I have done about Luther, I have never once read that he ever denied the real presence, much less that he, as you say, **never **believed in it ( which would have made it difficult from him to have been a Catholic monk, I might add). In fact, his biggest argument with Zwingli was over this very subject. Zwingli denied the real presence, Luther defended it.

But I will tell you this, if you can produce a quote by Luther denying or rejecting the real presence, that will move me to the brink of RCIA.

In closing, I offer this from Dave Armstrong.

socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/06/martin-luther-refutes-zwingli-other.html

Jon
Jesus Christ says “**This is my body”. **No said Luther, “This iis only the figure of Christs body; it will become his body as soon as you receive it”

Jesus Christ says to every man **“Thou shalt not steal”.**No said Luther to secular princes “I give you the right to appropriate to yourselves the property of the Roman Catholic church”.

Jesus Christ says **“Hear the church”.**No says Luther and ALL Protestants, “Do not hear the church; protect against her with all your might”.

Jesus Christ says **“If anyone will not hear the church, look upon him as a heathen and publican”. **No, says Protestanism, “If anyone does not hear the church, look upon him as an Apostle, an Ambassador of God”.

Jesus Christ says **“The gates of hell shall not prevail against my church”. **No, says Protestanism, tis false, the gates of hell have prevailed against the church for a thousand years and more".

Jesus Christ says **“My yoke is sweet and my burden is light”.**No, said Luther AND Calvin, “Faith alone, without good works, is sufficient to enter into everlasting life”.

Jesus Christ says **“Unless you do pennance, you shall all likewise perish” (Luke 3:3).**No, said Luther AND Calvin, "Fasting and other works of pennance are not necessary in satisfaction for sins.
 
Jesus Christ has declared St. Peter and every successor to St. Peter-the pope- to be his vicar on earth "No says Protestanism, the pope is the Anti-Christ".

Jesus Christ says "I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, and shall marry another, commiteth adultery". (Matt.19:9).
No, said Luther and all Protestants to a married man, “You may put away your wife, get a divorce and marry another”.

Do you think God the Father will admit into heaven those who thus contradict His Son Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost and Apostles? No, because the church of Christ is the Kingdom of God on earth, and he who leaves that Kingdom, shuts himself out from the Kingdom of Christ in heaven.
 
Jesus Christ says “**This is my body”. **No said Luther, “This iis only the figure of Christs body; it will become his body as soon as you receive it”(emphasis added)
He does not deny it is Christ’s body. You contradict yourself. Your very words give lie to your argument!
 
Jesus Christ says “**This is my body”. **No said Luther, “This iis only the figure of Christs body; it will become his body as soon as you receive it”
I have never seen documentation that Luther believed in receptionism, so I would want, again, to see the source of this quote, as I have seen evidence to the contrary. And as yet, my friend, I have seen no quote of Luther denying the real presence.
I think, perhaps, you have confused what Luther taught with that of Zwingli and other deniers of the real presence.
“It is enough for me that Christ’s blood is present; let it be with the wine as God wills. Before I would drink mere wine with the Enthusiasts, I would rather have pure blood with the Pope.”
Code:
A documented quote from Luther.
Jon
 
He does not deny it is Christ’s body. You contradict yourself. Your very words give lie to your argument!
eh…becoming his body “AS SOON AS YOU RECEIVE IT” is not Catholic teaching and not what Jesus said. He said "This IS MY BODY, not "This IS MY BODY AS SOON AS YOU RECEIVE IT.

And I resent you calling me a liar. Funny how you pick out ONE quote out of many… nice try…👍
 
And Protestants DO NOT believe in the Real Presence, therefore you ARE a Protestant.
 
eh…becoming his body “AS SOON AS YOU RECEIVE IT” is not Catholic teaching and not what Jesus said. He said "This IS MY BODY, not "This IS MY BODY AS SOON AS YOU RECEIVE IT.
Neither is it Lutheran teaching. It becomes the true and substantial body and blood of Christ at the consecration.

Jon
 
So what are you protesting?
Nothing on this issue, other than the mistaken understanding that Luther denied the real presence. In fact, I’ll go so far as to say the Transubstantiation is a reasonable human expression of said real presence, one I don’t condemn. As I quoted Luther earlier, "
It is enough for me that Christ’s blood is present; let it be with the wine as God wills
Jon
 
Nothing on this issue, other than the mistaken understanding that Luther denied the real presence. In fact, I’ll go so far as to say the Transubstantiation is a reasonable human expression of said real presence, one I don’t condemn. As I quoted Luther earlier, "

Jon
Was that before the 95 theses on the churches or after?:cool:
 
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