Why forgive in cases God wouldn't?

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minkymurph said:
This is something I struggle with myself.

We are taught God does not forgive the unrepentant, and it is true we are not God, but if someone makes if obvious they are not sorry are we entitled to withhold forgiveness until they are if this is what God would do?

I know my forgiveness has limitations. If someone harmed my children and were blatantly unrepentant I know I couldn’t forgive them.
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PennyinCanada said:
When we hold unforgiveness in our hearts, it blocks the Spirit of God working in us. We must leave the other person to the mercy of God and continue to walk in grace ourselves.

When we are unrepentant of sin, we block God’s grace just as unforgiveness blocks grace. In both cases, God is waiting behind a closed door waiting for us to open it. You know that holy picture of Jesus outside, knocking and wanting to come in?

You’re right, our ability to forgive is very limited. When something awful happens, all we can do is kneel before God and ask for the grace to forgive so that we can continue to do the work that God has assigned to us. Regardless if other people are doing what they should be doing, we know we will come before God and give an answer for our lives, and they will for their lives too.
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Penny - I was going to answer minkymurph…but you nailed it.

Peace
James
 
Just some quick thoughts…

I don’t really hold with the idea that God doesn’t forgive. Being that God is all loving and that He waits only for us to knock on His door, I cannot see him “not forgiving”. My take on this is that “God doesn’t forgive” is a of describing the issue in simple terms so that we humans can understand.

But perhaps there is a need here to understand what “forgiving” entails. Merriam Webster defines forgive as:
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b : to grant relief from payment of
2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon <forgive one’s enemies>
So, it appears that the core of forgiveness is to “give up” something negative (resentment) and/or to grant relief from repayment.
Since God is pure Love, it seems unlikely that He could display resentment. I believe He can be “hurt” (those wh love do experience hurt). So for me, the idea of God holing resentment doesn’t compute…though I can understand why it is expressed this way by many.

Bottom line to me is this…in the Lord’s Prayer and in other places in Scripture, Jesus makes known the importance of treating others as we wish to be treated.
“Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us…”(Mt 6:12-13)

14For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.(Mt 6:14-15)

37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven ;38 give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”(Luke 6:37-38)

All of these things are good reasons to give up resentment (forgive) and not worry about what God will do…

Peace
James
 
Cricket2 said:
We are not the one’s to judge a person’s remorse. Only God knows the heart of any of us. I can say I am sorry but not mean it. I can act unrepentant but within I really am, or someplace down pathway of my life I can become repentant. We are not called to assess a person’s regret or sorrow, only to forgive. The rest is in God’s hand.
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Ok, true, a person can say they are sorry but not mean it. But what about a person who explicitly expresses that they are not sorry. Why forgive that person? Are we expected to forgive that person, too? God wouldn’t.
 
JRKH said:
Just some quick thoughts…

I don’t really hold with the idea that God doesn’t forgive. Being that God is all loving and that He waits only for us to knock on His door, I cannot see him “not forgiving”. My take on this is that “God doesn’t forgive” is a of describing the issue in simple terms so that we humans can understand.

But perhaps there is a need here to understand what “forgiving” entails. Merriam Webster defines forgive as:
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b : to grant relief from payment of
2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon <forgive one’s enemies>
So, it appears that the core of forgiveness is to “give up” something negative (resentment) and/or to grant relief from repayment.
Since God is pure Love, it seems unlikely that He could display resentment. I believe He can be “hurt” (those wh love do experience hurt). So for me, the idea of God holing resentment doesn’t compute…though I can understand why it is expressed this way by many.

Bottom line to me is this…in the Lord’s Prayer and in other places in Scripture, Jesus makes known the importance of treating others as we wish to be treated.
“Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us…”(Mt 6:12-13)

14For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.(Mt 6:14-15)

37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven ;38 give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”(Luke 6:37-38)

All of these things are good reasons to give up resentment (forgive) and not worry about what God will do…

Peace
James
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While I appreciate your thoughtful post denying that God doesn’t forgive, one thing in your post crashes your own argument: scripture.

“…neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.(Mt 6:14-15)”
 
TheAdvocate said:
Ok, true, a person can say they are sorry but not mean it. But what about a person who explicitly expresses that they are not sorry. Why forgive that person? Are we expected to forgive that person, too? God wouldn’t.
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You forgive them internally in the sense that you hold no grudge.

God did this when he was nailed to the cross. "Lord forgive them for they know not what they do. "

This forgiveness is different than providing amnesty or looking the other way or accepting and living with wrong behavior.
 
Cricket2 said:
We are not the one’s to judge a person’s remorse. Only God knows the heart of any of us. I can say I am sorry but not mean it. I can act unrepentant but within I really am, or someplace down pathway of my life I can become repentant. We are not called to assess a person’s regret or sorrow, only to forgive. The rest is in God’s hand.
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YES!

Exactly what I wanted to say, and you said it better than I would have.

👍👍👍
 
TheAdvocate said:
Ok, true, a person can say they are sorry but not mean it. But what about a person who explicitly expresses that they are not sorry. Why forgive that person? Are we expected to forgive that person, too? God wouldn’t.
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How do you know what God would do?

And yes, you should forgive anyway. For your own sake.
 
TheAdvocate said:
While I appreciate your thoughtful post denying that God doesn’t forgive, one thing in your post crashes your own argument: scripture.

“…neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.(Mt 6:14-15)”
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Note that the verse says that if you do not forgive then you will not be forgiven…So I think that this answers your Thread Question…Why forgive? So that you may be forgiven.

Given this option - - Is there a good reason to NOT forgive???

Peace
James
 
In the Old Testament, there are several cases of God forgiving people who didn’t deserve it because someone else prayed for them

And to be honest, none of us deserve forgiveness. Fortunately, God does not give us what we deserve.
 
First of all I would like to thank Josh for a wonderful post that answers the question in detail…Great Job. 👍

I would like to ask a question of the OP here…In the OP you ask:
“Aren’t we supposed to imitate God?”
Mikekle goes even further and says:
Yes, but we are told to strive to be as close as possible to him, and how he acts/ thinks.
I would ask in reply…to both of you…where did you here this?

So far as I know our job is not to “imitate God” but rather to obey God.

I’m really interested in where you got this idea from as that may go a long way toward answering the question here.

Peace
James
 
If I may, I think there’s probably no real distinction here. Our obedience is to result in our being more like God. God works in us, and yet we cooperate with Him in the effort.
"And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Cor 3:18
 
JRKH said:
First of all I would like to thank Josh for a wonderful post that answers the question in detail…Great Job. 👍

I would like to ask a question of the OP here…In the OP you ask:
“Aren’t we supposed to imitate God?”
Mikekle goes even further and says:
Yes, but we are told to strive to be as close as possible to him, and how he acts/ thinks.
I would ask in reply…to both of you…where did you here this?

So far as I know our job is not to “imitate God” but rather to obey God.

I’m really interested in where you got this idea from as that may go a long way toward answering the question here.

Peace
James
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If I may, I think there’s probably no real distinction here. Our obedience is to result in our being more like God. God works in us, and yet we cooperate with Him in the effort.
"And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Cor 3:18
 
fhansen said:
If I may, I think there’s probably no real distinction here. Our obedience is to result in our being more like God.
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Yes - but note what you are saying here…we become more like God through obedience. So just like a child who wants to imitate his daddy, listens to what his daddy tells him to do, so to should we simply do as we have been instructed by our Lord. Forgive so that we may be forgiven.
God works in us, and yet we cooperate with Him in the effort
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.
Indeed, we cooperate with God’s grace in us. We work towards the perfection in Love that we are called to in Mt 5:48. But it is through obedience that we cooperate, not in presuming on what God would or would not forgive…
"And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Cor 3:18
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👍 But note that we are being transformed by contemplating on His glory - not presuming on His actions. I think that is key in this conversation.

That said…I still hope that the OP and Mikekle will share where they heard that we are suppose to imitate God? I think that knowing more about that might help clear up the misunderstandings…

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
First of all I would like to thank Josh for a wonderful post that answers the question in detail…Great Job. 👍
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🙂 Thank you.
JRKH said:
Just some quick thoughts…

I don’t really hold with the idea that God doesn’t forgive. Being that God is all loving and that He waits only for us to knock on His door, I cannot see him “not forgiving”. My take on this is that “God doesn’t forgive” is a of describing the issue in simple terms so that we humans can understand.
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👍

The Image of The Divine Mercy (St Faustina)

http://s8.postimg.org/422f1cyxh/Christ_9.jpg

Jesus to St. Faustina -

**“My Heart overflows with great mercy for souls, and especially for poor sinners. If only they could understand that I am the best of Fathers to them and that it is for them that the Blood and Water flowed from My Heart as from a fount overflowing with mercy.” **(Diary, 367).

"My mercy is greater than your sins and those of the entire world. Who can measure the extent of my goodness? For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart. Your misery has disappeared in the depths of My mercy" (Diary, 1485).

"Oh, if sinners knew My mercy, they would not perish in such great numbers. Tell sinful souls not to be afraid to approach Me; speak to them of My great mercy" (Diary, 1396).

The Prodigal Son -

http://s28.postimg.org/6bvy5pai5/Prodigal_Son.jpg
Jesus to Catalina:
The Great Crusade of Love - loveandmercy.org/Eng-CL-Reg.pdf

**I would like to be presented like the prodigal son’s father who, aged by the pain of his son’s absence, keeps watch from a window with a small light of hope for the return of his beloved son. I live among all of you in the air you breathe, the water you drink, and the bread you eat, with all the grandiose work of creation that never ceases. In this manner I am among you all, alive, real, with the perpetual sacrifice of the Cross and the glory of the resurrection in each Eucharist.

I want the world to know that God is unchanging, that He never lessens His love for men; I need for man to know that I never set limits to my forgiveness and that I do not ask the prodigal son how he has squandered my estate, nor do I ask for an account of his wickedness.**
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Jesus to Catalina:
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf

I want to teach sinners that because they have sinned, they should not distance themselves from Me thinking that they no longer have recourse and that they will never be loved as before they sinned. Poor souls! These are not the feelings of a God who has shed all His Blood for you. Come to Me all of you and fear not because I love you. I will cleanse you with My Blood and you will be as white as snow. I will drown your sins in the water of My Mercy and nothing will be able to snatch from My Heart the Love that I have for you.
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Jesus to Catalina:
The Stations of The Cross - loveandmercy.org/Eng-SOC-Reg.pdf

I say again, My children, poor sinners! Do not distance yourselves from Me. I wait for you night and day at the Tabernacle. I will not reproach you for your crimes; I will not throw your sins in your face. What I will do is to wash you with the Blood of My wounds. Do not be afraid, come to Me. You do not know how much I love you.
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I believe those immersed in the depths of God’s unfathomable love and mercy, are like those who have just won the lottery, most people don’t really care about the 10% tax on $90 Million Dollars. They are too busy being ecstatic about the $81.8 Million Dollars in their pocket to care about the $8.2 Million Dollar tax.

I believe this is the beauty of Jesus’ story about “An Official who Refused to Forgive.” As I believe it really puts things in perspective, same with the story about “Workers in the vineyard” that many people struggle with, where workers worked for different amounts of time and were paid the same, many call it unfair, but really, when it comes to the kingdom of Heaven, who cares how other people entered? I will just be happy to be there. Kind of like Christmas time for kids, you can tell the kid who got what he wanted, because he doesn’t care about what anyone else got, he’s too focused and ecstatic about what he got.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
JRKH said:
Note that the verse says that if you do not forgive then you will not be forgiven…So I think that this answers your Thread Question…Why forgive? So that you may be forgiven.

Given this option - - Is there a good reason to NOT forgive???
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Jesus means that as long as you do not forgive others you are unforgivable!
 
JRKH said:
First of all I would like to thank Josh for a wonderful post that answers the question in detail…Great Job. 👍

I would like to ask a question of the OP here…In the OP you ask:
“Aren’t we supposed to imitate God?”
Mikekle goes even further and says:
Yes, but we are told to strive to be as close as possible to him, and how he acts/ thinks.
I would ask in reply…to both of you…where did you here this?

So far as I know our job is not to “imitate God” but rather to obey God.

I’m really interested in where you got this idea from as that may go a long way toward answering the question here.

Peace
James
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“Love one another as I have loved you.”

Also, the famous work known as “The Imitation of Christ.”
 
TheAdvocate said:
“Love one another as I have loved you.”

Also, the famous work known as “The Imitation of Christ.”
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Thank you …

I’ve not read “The Imitation of Christ” so cannot speak to that.

As for the Gospel quote…The next question would be - how has He loved us?

Peace
James
 
“wouldn’t” suggests there are cases in which God wouldn’t forgive - which is not at all evident…
 
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