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Thorns
Guest
Angels are outside of time. Its not that they rejected (past tense) God, they reject God (presently). Since there is no future outside of time, they are stuck with their choice which is to perpetually reject God.
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MacQ
Guest
Exactly. Like many discussions here, we started off with a flawed assumption.
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mikekle
Guest
Sodom and Gomorrah, we know God destroyed these 2 cities, so he did not forgive them, plus even though Adam and Eve said they were sorry, God did not forgive them.
Its also been said that God would not forgive Satan OR any of the demons, and that is ALOT of former angels!
J
JRKH
Guest
I don’t know that the assumption is entirely flawed…since there is the passage in the Gospel where Jesus says that there is a sin which will not be forgiven either in this world or the next.
That said…I think that there IS something of a more general flaw that effects many conversations like this one. That flaw is thinking of sin only in terms of being discrete actions rather than a state of being.
Using the example above of Jesus saying a son won’t be forgiven now or later…He is not talking about a discrete action that requires punishment but rather the underlying state of being (state of mind) that permits such a statement to be made.
Look at the list of the “seven deadly sins”. These items are much more about our character than they are about our actions…same with the Heavenly Virtues.
This is not to say it is not accurate to say that sin IS a discrete action…but it is a mistake to limit our understanding of sin to only that.
Just some thoughts
Peace
James
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MacQ
Guest
I take your points.
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tonyrey
Guest
Only Fundamentalists believe everything in the Old Testament is literally true.
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grannymh
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Thank you josh 987654321 for posts 11 & 12.
They should be read more than once. They remind me of Life’s Healing Journey Retreats conducted by Father Peter Campbell years ago. May he rest in peace.
They should be read more than once. They remind me of Life’s Healing Journey Retreats conducted by Father Peter Campbell years ago. May he rest in peace.
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grannymh
Guest
When it comes to forgiveness, does anyone consider the unique relationship between God as Spiritual Creator and the human person as material/spiritual creature?
What does God’s forgiveness mean when it comes to Mortal Sin?
Has anyone explained Mortal Sin? If I missed that announcement, please let me know.
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MacQ
Guest
All true, as I’ve acknowledged previously.
Reading some of the other posts, it occurred to me that what bugs me about the premise is the ASSumption that “God wouldn’t” (which is the starting premise).
I realized that one of the things that irks me most on these threads is when people presume they know what God would do.
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JRKH
Guest
Yes - I agree that such can be irksome.
Also - I think that sometimes we don’t take the time to properly define what we are talking about and this leads to miscommunication and talking past one another.
In post 22 I tried to address this by printing the Merriam Webster Definition of forgive:
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b : to grant relief from payment of
2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon <forgive one’s enemies>
Given these definitions, it is entirely possible for God to forgive a debt (which Jesus paid) and not feel resentful (which I doubt He can) - and a person STILL not go to heaven…
because they have not turned away from sin.
Their choice - not God’s
Peace
James
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grannymh
Guest
Regarding the question.
“Aren’t we supposed to imitate God?”
One could answer yes because our ultimate goal is to share in God’s life here on earth and in the presence of the Beatific Vision. (CCC, 355-356; CCC, 1730; CCC, Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 869; CCC, 1028)
Regarding the two possibilities.
- God forgives unrepentant sinners
OR - In imitation of our Lord, if someone isn’t sorry for wrongdoing, we need not forgive them.
In real life, there is a difference between stealing a candy bar from a grocery store and killing the owner of the grocery store. In real life, according to the Catholic Church, there is a difference between being in the State of Sanctifying Grace and being in the State of Mortal Sin. (CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898; CCC, Glossary Mortal Sin, page 889)
Our freely chosen actions determine our State – sharing in God’s life or not sharing in God’s life. This difference needs to be clarified regarding your sinner. Not all of us shoot grocery store owners. I am sure some of us have enjoyed a candy bar…
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JRKH
Guest
Good stuff there grannymh…
However - for the sake of discussion, I will argue that it is not our actions that determine our state, but rather it is our state that determines our actions.
Thus - sin is less about a discrete act than it is about a state of being. Using your candy bar example…One enters a state of sin when they decide to steal the candy…the act is a result of that state. The same thing is true of killing the store owner.
Likewise one enters a state of grace the moment one turns away from sin.
Naturally in the above I am painting strictly “black and white” and the Church recognizes the grey areas known as venial sin…where grace can still exist (in a weakened form) as we struggle with some sin or other.
But I share this to make the point, as I think you have here - that we need to look at sin as a state of being, and not simply as discrete acts.
Peace
James
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MacQ
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grannymh
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For the sake of discussion and for the sake of a granny who has to picture concepts.Good stuff there grannymh…
However - for the sake of discussion, I will argue that it is not our actions that determine our state, but rather it is our state that determines our actions.
Thus - sin is less about a discrete act than it is about a state of being. Using your candy bar example…One enters a state of sin when they decide to steal the candy…the act is a result of that state. The same thing is true of killing the store owner.
Likewise one enters a state of grace the moment one turns away from sin.
Naturally in the above I am painting strictly “black and white” and the Church recognizes the grey areas known as venial sin…where grace can still exist (in a weakened form) as we struggle with some sin or other.
But I share this to make the point, as I think you have here - that we need to look at sin as a state of being, and not simply as discrete acts.
Peace
James
When I picture the sin of someone shooting the manager of a grocery store, I picture flowing blood which take precedence. When I read the definition of the State of Sanctifying Grace, I can easily picture the beauty of sharing in the life of God. As for the State of Mortal Sin, I do think my picture would violate a rule of decency.
Regarding “One enters a state of sin when they decide to steal the candy…the act is a result of that state.”
Actually, the act of stealing the candy is the result of our free will which does operate in both the State of Sanctifying Grace and the State of Mortal Sin. The deciding to steal the candy is part of our rational intellect which also operates in both States of Sanctifying Grace and Mortal sin.
Regarding “Naturally in the above I am painting strictly “black and white” and the Church recognizes the grey areas known as venial sin…where grace can still exist (in a weakened form) as we struggle with some sin or other.”
I am not sure what “grace” is the “grace” in where grace can still exist (in a weakened form) as we struggle with some sin or other. In our State of Sanctifying Grace, it is God Who is existing and never in a weakened form.
In my humble opinion, I need to be clear about the states of my spiritual soul. Otherwise, problems do occur.
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JRKH
Guest
Yes the act is the result of our free will choice (decision) to sin.
Yes free will operates in both the state of Sanctifying Grace and the state of Mortal Sin…Otherwise we would not be able to change direction.
Yes our rational intellect also operates in both States of Sanctifying Grace and Mortal sin…but our rational intellect won’t keep us from sinning…people rationalize many sins.
So - it is our free will decisions that send us into the state of sin…the actions are only what follow the decision.
I may have misspoke slightly…
From the Catechism:
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. “Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.”
(Bolding mine)
So it is Love (Charity) that is weakened in us…and makes us more susceptible to mortal sin.
Of course, I have to say that I cannot see how weakening charity can avoid weakening sanctifying grace.
Yes - we want to be clear. What we don’t want to be is legalistic. Sanctification is about change - about becoming something else…perfected in our Lord. It is about “Being” - and the doing is how we measure where we are on the journey…
But we must avoid the error of thinking that only actions count - while thoughts do not. The person who unrepentedly thinks evil - harbors hate or whatever - even though he takes no action - is still in a state of sin.
Peace
James
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josh987654321
Guest
Thank you
Please feel free to quote/copy any of it if another opportunity presents itself.
God Bless
Thank you for reading
Josh
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OneSheep
Guest
Hi James
I definitely agree with you about the assumption made on this thread, first of all God as I know Him always forgives. I also agree with you that a “state” is the precursor to sin.
But what is that state? To me, “state of being”, unless we all share that state, sounds a bit like t depravity or something like that. But we are all sinners…
What makes more sense to me is that we sin because we are in a “state” of ignorance or blindness, because such ignorance or blindness are necessary elements of all sin.
J
JRKH
Guest
Well I guess depravity could be one state of being…but it is certainly not the only one.
Basically I am using “state of being” to describe where our heart is at a given time. When one decides to steal that candy bar, their heart is not with God…or with their neighbor…Thus they are in a state of sin even before the candy bar goes into their pocket.
Similarly, the person who sees someone who needs help, for instance someone trying to load heavy packages or needs a door held open, and their first thought is to help…they are demonstrating what their “state of being” is.
I prefer the term “recovering sinner”…
Like the drug addict or alcoholic in recovery, we must struggle everyday…but hopefully we are getting better.
Sometimes we are in a state if ignorance and culpability is reduced, but the definition of Mortal Sin removes ignorance from the equation.
As for Blindness…Yes we can sometimes be blinded…Not sure how that effect culpability. It would depend on what is meant by “blinded”…
Peace
James
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anon99031074
Guest
It is not up to me to speak as to what God does or does not do, assuming (s)he exists. However, not forgiving causes the person who does not forgive to suffer. Carrying around hatred and ill will has no benefits, and it does not change the situation, meaning if you refuse to forgive someone, that someone will not change because of it, and you will suffer. Letting go at the very least spares you suffering, and I would also argue, makes the world a better place.
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MacQ
Guest
:tiphat:
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