W
Winterwolf00
Guest
By that same logic though can you not also say “God in his evil created beings which could experience sorrow?”
- Status
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
This is a profound question that is probably not going to get answered in this thread. I believe it will require a degree of spiritual and intellectual growth that all must undergo before the satisfactory answer is found.
I suggest starting with a rather challenging book by a Jewish convert to Catholicism.
Lawrence Feingold’s The Natural Desire to See God According to St. Thomas Aquinas and His Interpreters.
There are some interesting five star reviews of the book at amazon.com.
amazon.com/Natural-Desire-According-Thomas-Interpreters/dp/1932589546/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415826588&sr=8-1&keywords=lawrence+feingold
C
CrossofChrist
Guest
But sorrow isn’t evil. It can even be a great good.
The poster wanted to know a reason why God created man. He created man so that man might love him. By loving God man becomes complete. If love can only be a free act, then the agent acting must be free (hence evil…but this will lead to a digression from the topic if we continue on this…he wanted to know why go to heaven, not debate the goodness of God)
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
But if I create minions SO THAT some/many of them will love me, how is that something other than vanity? If I am perfect and complete, how would their creation add to that?
F
fhansen
Guest
God created humans so that they could come to know and share in the beauty of love. God is love. There is nothing more satisfying, more enthralling, more all-captivating than the vision of God-He’s human desire finally, totally fulfilled, a desire or hunger that we all share and that we all seek to satiate; it’s the very primary source of human angst and misery until and unless fulfilled.
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
Nice to hear from you, fhansen, and it’s a nice point. The personifying language often trips me up here, as does the language that seems to draw a distinction between whether we will be “in Heaven” or here on the renewed/restored version of earth.
Then why is Him seeing Himself not perfectly fulfilling for Him? If He is perfectly fulfilled from all eternity, what is added by His self-expression through creating us?
F
fhansen
Guest
I don’t know that it fulfills Him more. But in any case it’s the unchanging nature of love to share in its happiness.
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
1.) Isn’t that already done (and even more fully) by creating the hierarchy of angels that were already part of creation as it was in the beginning?
2.) Wouldn’t it be, in fact, the unchanging nature of love to empower the other to participate FULLY in sharing the giver’s happiness? In which case, why create us in a state from which we can never reach the level of perfect love as shown by the creator? Is that not like me choosing to have a child, but coding their DNA so that they could never become as fully grown/wise/compassionate as I am?
C
Charlemagne_III
Guest
That is one of those unanswerable questions.
Sort of like asking why God even exists. Or why God is love.
W
Winterwolf00
Guest
It’s that ‘God is Mysterious’ non-answer.That is one of those unanswerable questions.
Sort of like asking why God even exists. Or why God is love.
F
fhansen
Guest
The catechism teaches that God made His universe in a “state of journeying to perfection”. IMO the more His beings freely choose to love, the greater their justice, and therefore the greater they are. In His wisdom man must struggle for this justice, for this love, for this perfection, this willingness. Divinization or theosis, probably making man higher than angels, is the ultimate goal.1.) Isn’t that already done (and even more fully) by creating the hierarchy of angels that were already part of creation as it was in the beginning?
2.) Wouldn’t it be, in fact, the unchanging nature of love to empower the other to participate FULLY in sharing the giver’s happiness? In which case, why create us in a state from which we can never reach the level of perfect love as shown by the creator? Is that not like me choosing to have a child, but coding their DNA so that they could never become as fully grown/wise/compassionate as I am?
**409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"makes man’s life a battle:
The whole of man’s history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God’s grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.**
K
Kurisu35712
Guest
Not sure if this directly answers your question, but the reason the Angels serve us and protect us despite being objectively more intelligent and more holy is because they see God within us. God didn’t just create us to serve Him and be with Him, Gee created us to be one with Him. He is perfectly fulfilled regardless. He wants us to be perfectly fulfilled as well because He loves us.
K
Kurisu35712
Guest
1.) Isn’t that already done (and even more fully) by creating the hierarchy of angels that were already part of creation as it was in the beginning?
2.) Wouldn’t it be, in fact, the unchanging nature of love to empower the other to participate FULLY in sharing the giver’s happiness? In which case, why create us in a state from which we can never reach the level of perfect love as shown by the creator? Is that not like me choosing to have a child, but coding their DNA so that they could never become as fully grown/wise/compassionate as I am?
- No because their free will is different from ours. Angels are fundamentally different from humans, as are our relationships with God. Likewise, humans are all one species of soul (or something like that) whereas I’ve read that each angel is it’s own species, hence why not all fell. I’m in class at the moment, so I can’t go into much detail at the moment (not really sure how much detail I can really go into anyway, I’m no expert
), but that’s the basics of what I know about it? - He did create us to fully participate and share in His happiness. Likewise, He created us to be with Him in Heaven for all eternity, not to live for 80 years and then die. The point of Heaven is that it is our home, and there we WILL be perfected and able to share in His love fully. And we were created to be that way on earth as well. However, He gave us the ability to choose whether that was what we wanted. And we decided that we wanted to do as we will, not as He does unless we like it. And once we did, it affected all of us. Not to mention that we can become as wise and compassionate as God is through Him, and in fact are commanded to be perfect as He is. We just can’t do it without Him.
Y
ynotzap
Guest
Created beings (us) will never contain the fullness of love, who is God. The finite can never contain the infinite But the finite can be filled infinitely by it’s Creator. When we share in God’s love our nature does not change. We have a condition in our nature that is called Potency and Act, we are constantly changing moving from a real capacity to become, to becoming (act) From a capacity to receiving love, to the fulfillment of that capacity. As long as our nature remains the same, we will always experience a filling with love, and because God is infinite and eternal, we will experience being filled eternally even though we can never contain the fullness of love which is God because we are finite.1.) Isn’t that already done (and even more fully) by creating the hierarchy of angels that were already part of creation as it was in the beginning?
2.) Wouldn’t it be, in fact, the unchanging nature of love to empower the other to participate FULLY in sharing the giver’s happiness? In which case, why create us in a state from which we can never reach the level of perfect love as shown by the creator? Is that not like me choosing to have a child, but coding their DNA so that they could never become as fully grown/wise/compassionate as I am?
It’s like not being able to contain the ocean of love, but we can experience the filling of our capacity. eg. Which glass is the fullest, a large glass, or a small glass, if their individual capacities are filled, so too is our partaking in God’s love, what is our capacity? How much of ourselves did we pour out, in order to iincrease our capacity to receive more of God’s love? For creatures,it will always be Potency and Act, constant filling never exhausting the Source, Pure Act, God who is Love.
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
There’s always seemed a paradox in this line of thinking. If I give my daughter freedom to make some decision and she completely screws up her life (and her childrens’ lives, and their children . . .), doesn’t that suggest that I was wrong to allow her that choice before she had enough maturity and wisdom to succeed?
- No because their free will is different from ours. Angels are fundamentally different from humans, as are our relationships with God. Likewise, humans are all one species of soul (or something like that) whereas I’ve read that each angel is it’s own species, hence why not all fell. I’m in class at the moment, so I can’t go into much detail at the moment (not really sure how much detail I can really go into anyway, I’m no expert
- He did create us to fully participate and share in His happiness. Likewise, He created us to be with Him in Heaven for all eternity, not to live for 80 years and then die. The point of Heaven is that it is our home, and there we WILL be perfected and able to share in His love fully. And we were created to be that way on earth as well. However, He gave us the ability to choose whether that was what we wanted. And we decided that we wanted to do as we will, not as He does unless we like it. And once we did, it affected all of us. Not to mention that we can become as wise and compassionate as God is through Him, and in fact are commanded to be perfect as He is. We just can’t do it without Him.
We are commanded to do something that is not possible for us? What?
My point about the angels is: if it was God’s nature to create beings to share in his love and awesomeness, did he not do it right when he created the angels? Otherwise, their creation should have fulfilled this aspect of his nature.
Y
ynotzap
Guest
K
Kurisu35712
Guest
Ynotzap gave a better explanation for our being called to perfection. We can be infinitely filled with God’s love and He can make us perfect. It’s not something we can do on our own.
While I understand why you’re asking the questions you are, I’m not sure you’ll find a necessarily logical reason for our creation. The way I understand it, God made us simply so that we could share in His creation because He wanted to. The angels were made to glorify Him and whatnot, but they don’t have free will, at least like how we do, so our own relationship with God is very different. It’s not that He didn’t do it right the first time, so much as He simply wanted us to be.
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
Y
ynotzap
Guest
God’s ultimate purpose for us is to unite us with Himself. It’s impossible to have this here on earth, because your life, and mine could not be sustained in this material, physical world. One of the beliefs of our Faith is that one can not see the face of God and live for the soul of man, the principle of life would immediately leave the body to be united with God In the meantime nothing imperfect can enter heaven. Our life on earth is a pilgrimage. A time for purification, a time of trial, a time for testing our fidelity to God, our love for Him. Love is not forced, and the proof of that love lies in our acts of free will, doing His will, or what is contrary to His will. In life we have many choices, for good and for evil, how will we choose?
Nothing escapes the Providence of God. Fee will is subordinate to Divine Providence(Matt 6:30) which does not disturb the order of nature, but conserves and directs it. A plan conceived in the mind of God according to which He directs all creatures to their proper end, which for us is union with Him for eternity. He does make His physical presence to us through an act of faith,the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist and some saints have actually experienced ecstacy, and only by the grace of God was their physical life sustained.
Nothing escapes the Providence of God. Fee will is subordinate to Divine Providence(Matt 6:30) which does not disturb the order of nature, but conserves and directs it. A plan conceived in the mind of God according to which He directs all creatures to their proper end, which for us is union with Him for eternity. He does make His physical presence to us through an act of faith,the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist and some saints have actually experienced ecstacy, and only by the grace of God was their physical life sustained.
N
Neoplatonist
Guest
That contradicts what we mean by loving someone. If we love them and they are unfulfilled, how is it that we can be perfectly happy? If I love my wife or daughter, but their unhappiness does not phase me one iota, then we need some new term to call that other than love.
If he was perfectly fulfilled, then why suffer on the cross to fix things for us?
Was He still perfectly fulfilled even while suffering on the cross? ?!]
If being perfectly fulfilled means I am not moved to unhappiness by the suffering of others, then I guess I’d rather stay here and keep helping than go off to Heaven and sit around in a state of contentment. Not trying to be provocative, I really mean it.
- Status