Why God allowed gays to born?

[Seeker1961]

Also, I don’t know if I can agree with your argument that gay people are the most hated people on Earth - given how much they are celebrated in Western popular culture.

Every culture has biases. I live in a very segregated area. It’s the 21st century, but you’d never know it by the way people around this area stereotype and behave towards each other. This is slowly changing, but there’s a lot of suspicion of the ‘other’. I’m not originally from this area, so getting used to all the hate and anger has been a challenge at times.

Given the circles I run in, the least popular people are specifically conservative Christians (and especially the RCC).

I always find it kind of interesting that nobody wants to tear down the conservative Muslims or Jews, but it’s always the conservative Christians and the practicing Catholics that have to be destroyed and proven wrong.

Why were any of us allowed to be born? Being a Christian isn’t easy, OP. You aren’t required to like everything in the Bible. The Bible causes all of us to question at times. It’s supposed to!

Jesus didn’t say to the disciples, follow me on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday and the rest of the week you can do what you want. Living the Christian life is a huge lifestyle change and more than likely, you will suffer (in some way) for being a Christian.

“Celebrated”?? I don’t think so. There are still plenty of places a gay person can be fired from a job, just because someone said they’re gay, denied a place to live because the landlord thinks they’re gay, beaten up, harassed and even killed for the “crime” of being gay.

Yes, it’s FAR better here in the US than it was when I was a kid and understanding that I was different from everyone else I knew. But to say that it’s a celebration is far from the truth. You’ve still gotta have a pretty thick skin even to listen (or read) some of the things people say about you and you still have to watch over your shoulder a bit for someone who might think that you deserve worse than just words.

 

[CopticChristian]

Behavioral scientists have described a number of functions homsexual behavious may have in “normal” behaviours of the group, these range from dominance to developing co-operative relationships. I do think science has taken us on from a position of just saying homosexuality is abnormal to starting to understanding what influences sexual behaviour (genetic, developmental and environmental) and possible reasons these behaviors are sometimes seen in mammals and especially primates. To say again, that does not deal with the morality (to kill or maim a male rival is also natural in many species), but gives us a better understanding which may inform our discussions on the morality.

Michael,

There’s homosexual behaviour in the wild as well Charlemagne. Indeed in his study on 33 primate species, Paul Vasey found it to me more common in the wild than in captivity (International Journal of Primatology, 1995, Volume 16, p173-204). As for environment and genes, it appears that both play a role, as well as uterine conditions for the developing baby (especially exposure to abnormal hormone levels).

Before you ingest and accept that animals are Homosexual and believe that this explains what you may have accepted visit this thread…Those Homosexual Animals…

I often see Homosexual sympathizers and those propagating Homosexuality as evident in the Animal Kingdom when reading about attempts to normalize the Homosexual life.

Homosexuality exists in many types of animal types. My usual response is that animals exhibit at best Adolescent behavior and that to conclude that adolescent behavior should be our model for human behavior makes no sense.

I am of the belief that there is no such thing as fixed behavior and it appears that in the animal kingdom this is true. If this is true in the animal kingdom then it is true for humans. There is no such thing as fixed behavior.

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Those Homosexual Animals
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#1 Feb 23, '13, 8:17 am
CopticChristian
Regular Member Join Date: July 26, 2011
Location: Arizona
Posts: 8,264
Religion: Catholic

Those Homosexual Animals

---

I often see Homosexual sympathizers and those propagating Homosexuality as evident in the Animal Kingdom when reading about attempts to normalize the Homosexual life.

Homosexuality exists in many types of animal types. My usual response is that animals exhibit at best Adolescent behavior and that to conclude that adolescent behavior should be our model for human behavior makes no sense.

I am of the belief that there is no such thing as fixed behavior and it appears that in the animal kingdom this is true. If this is true in the animal kingdom then it is true for humans. There is no such thing as fixed behavior.

companionanimalsolutions.com/…t-few-decades/

Let me give you a few examples: I think that they fall into four categories. There are concepts that we now know simply are not true: Fixed Action Patterns fall into this category. Fixed action patterns were a concept from the early days of ethology, mid-20th-century, in which animals were thought to display some behaviors that were absolutely of genetic origin, the classic “hard-wired”

There are concepts that are sort-of, basically true but that we now know are far more complicated, and thus the original terms and concepts simply don’t do the job any more: the Nature vs. Nurture dichotomy falls into this category (as do many dichotomies: the world is not a black and white place). This issue is related to the concept of the fixed action pattern, but this one has taken longer to die. Why? It’s the caveat about being kinda, sorta right. But here the point is that it is not a dichotomy. No matter where we look, it’s a continuum, from highly genetically controlled (but never entirely: see point above) to virtually entirely environmental, what we in applied animal behavior would call ‘learned’, but again, never without a genetic component to the behavior.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=757904

 

[CopticChristian]

Gee, I don’t know. It’s not like anyone is bullying/berating/demeaning/harassing them. That never happens!

Veritas,

Are you suggesting that oppression of Homosexuals as you see it is the cause of self destruction in Homosexuals. Take suicide. Are you suggesting that Homosexuals are oppressed and that is why there is a high rate of suicide?

 

[CopticChristian]

At least you’re now apparently open to the possibility, however faint it may seem to you.

With that in mind, don’t you think it would be more becoming of you to talk about people who are homosexually inclined in more charitable terms? You know… just in case your normal method of describing the phenomenon is wrong?

Dex,

I don’t know what to say to you…your past posts say…

My information is formed by discussing this issue with many real life people who are LGBT. Genuine flesh and blood people, not just pixels on a computer screen.

You state you know lots of LGBT people and in the past say you know lots of Homosexuals. I for the life of me, in the medical field, have not encountered lots of LGBT people. A few transgendered, cannot recall any Bisexuals and I honestly have no contact with any homosexuals. Your experience mystifies me.

One has to ask weigh in the balance the good that one wishes as the outcome versus the justification for asking someone to change beyond all realistic hope of managing to do so.

A person may be motivated to change, but the process should not be attempted if it would be dangerous for them to do so, surely? In the case of homosexuality, the only available choice then is to provide charitable counselling for that person so that they can modify their behaviour.

Or is it your position that all persons experiencing an instinctive homosexual drive are capable of change if only they were motivated enough, and that such change would not harm them?

You embrace the American Psychiatric Association paradigm that

Behavior is fixed
The only counseling for Homosexuals is acceptance…

Respectfully, Dex, I don’t agree. Which side is on the side of angels, in your view? Whose bias do you support, the Christian bias or the homosexual activist bias? The homosexual activists, whether there is a concerted conspiracy or not, have the apparent upper hand in use of language to get homosexual acts normalized.

Your bias has been noticed by others noted above to which you respond…

My points are not biased one way or the other - this isn’t about being on ‘sides’ that accept or reject homosexual activism. This is about using language in such a way as it gets through to the people on the street corner.

If we reject the word ‘gay’ because we consider it to have political overtones, then we do ourselves a disservice when the rest of the world, the very people we wish to get through to, don’t see the word as anything to write home about.

A person who only ever experiences same-sex attraction may quite reasonably define themselves as a homosexual person. They are NOT sinning by defining themselves so, and that’s not my opinion, it’s the Church’s

You want to label and I have pointed out that the Catholic Medical Association suggests that you discard this notion of heterosexuality/homosexuality in deference to He created them Male and Female…Homosexuality and Hope the results of a 2 year study…I take their advice over yours…

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/ho0039.html

It is, therefore, probably wise to avoid wherever possible using the words “homosexual” and “heterosexual” as nouns since such usage implies a fixed state and an equivalence between the natural state of man and woman as created by God and persons experiencing same sex attractions or behaviors.

Your opinions that have no basis as other than a consumer concerning reparative therapy have been registered as seen here…

So quack cures are alright then?

I here on in shall feel free to describe ‘reparative therapy’ as a ‘quack cure’.

That’s good enough for me.

I’d love to do a follow up with all those 2000.

I wonder how many ‘succeeded’ long term?

and I wonder what sort of counselling you engage in as you state here…

From personal experience, although of course this would be statistically untested, I know and have known and have been called upon to be an informal counsellor by a number of homosexual people. Precisely TWO people, over 15 years, representing an order of magnitude less than ‘48%’ have ever acknowledged needing anything so much as a prozac in their entire lives. None whatsoever have ever gone anywhere near illegal drugs, let alone needed treatment.

I have no understanding of your emperical information…you seem to know more LGBT than the average person. You have stated that your work requires you to travel and spend time in hotels…explain how you came to have so many LGBT contacts and what type of counselling you did for 15 years. Let us know the total number of people you see in a week over these 15 years…

 

[DexUK]

Dex,

I don’t know what to say to you…your past posts say…

You state you know lots of LGBT people and in the past say you know lots of Homosexuals. I for the life of me, in the medical field, have not encountered lots of LGBT people. A few transgendered, cannot recall any Bisexuals and I honestly have no contact with any homosexuals. Your experience mystifies me.

You embrace the American Psychiatric Association paradigm that

Behavior is fixed
The only counseling for Homosexuals is acceptance…

Your bias has been noticed by others noted above to which you respond…

You want to label and I have pointed out that the Catholic Medical Association suggests that you discard this notion of heterosexuality/homosexuality in deference to He created them Male and Female…Homosexuality and Hope the results of a 2 year study…I take their advice over yours…

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/ho0039.html

Your opinions that have no basis as other than a consumer concerning reparative therapy have been registered as seen here…

and I wonder what sort of counselling you engage in as you state here…

I have no understanding of your emperical information…you seem to know more LGBT than the average person. You have stated that your work requires you to travel and spend time in hotels…explain how you came to have so many LGBT contacts and what type of counselling you did for 15 years. Let us know the total number of people you see in a week over these 15 years…

Crumbs. You’re throwing a lot of my words back at me as though somehow you’re proving a point. The only points you’re proving is that you’re very keen on ad-hominem attacks and that you’re so completely stuck in your views that you’re unwilling to be charitable to anyone… myself or SSA people. And that is not behaviour that is becoming in a Christian.

How about you look hard into yourself and ask yourself “what effect do I want my words to have?” and, more importantly, “what effect will my words have?”. Until the answers to both of those questions are the same, you are clearly failing to get your point across at best and being deliberately and wilfully uncharitable at worst.

 

[DexUK]

As regards the subject of this thread, no faithful Catholic should do anything other than read the Catechism of the Catholic Church which contains all they need to know about the subject:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P85.HTM

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

It is irrelevant whether a person is born or ‘made’ homosexually inclined. What is relevant is that every such person is treated according to the rules set out in the catechism: respectfully, compassionately, sensitively. Unjust discrimination should be avoided. It is therefore implicit that these prescriptions include both words and deeds.

Follow the Catechism and you won’t go wrong. Remember, that also means to ensure that you “judge not, lest you yourself be judged”.

We are not to give the impression that we wish fire and brimstone to be brought down upon homosexuals, nor are we to judge their state in life according to our suppositions about the cause of homosexuality.

If we say that a homosexual person is oriented that way out of choice we make a judgement that we’re not entitled to make.

If we say that a homosexually inclined person may change according to an effort of his will, then we judge that person - in particular we do so contrary to the Catechism which states of homosexuality “Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.” If it is not explained, then it is not possible to state with certainty in a way that is compatible with the virtue of Charity that a person may be changeable in their orientation.

We don’t have to do anything that goes against our consciences, but equally we are not to make judgements about others. That judgement is reserved to God and God alone. He will be the Judge and His verdict will be perfect.

I’m happy to leave it to God. Are you?

 

[CopticChristian]

Crumbs. You’re throwing a lot of my words back at me as though somehow you’re proving a point. The only points you’re proving is that you’re very keen on ad-hominem attacks and that you’re so completely stuck in your views that you’re unwilling to be charitable to anyone… myself or SSA people. And that is not behaviour that is becoming in a Christian.

How about you look hard into yourself and ask yourself “what effect do I want my words to have?” and, more importantly, “what effect will my words have?”. Until the answers to both of those questions are the same, you are clearly failing to get your point across at best and being deliberately and wilfully uncharitable at worst.

Dex,

I am not arguing. I am asking for clarity.

From personal experience, although of course this would be statistically untested, I know and have known and have been called upon to be an informal counsellor by a number of homosexual people. Precisely TWO people, over 15 years, representing an order of magnitude less than ‘48%’ have ever acknowledged needing anything so much as a prozac in their entire lives. None whatsoever have ever gone anywhere near illegal drugs, let alone needed treatment.

How is it you were asked to counsel for 15 years?

How many did you counsel and in what capacity? Are you a trained counselor?

How is it you know so many LGBT people?

How is it you know those with Sweeneys syndrome?

Clarify your empiricism.

 

[DexUK]

Dex,

I am not arguing. I am asking for clarity.

How is it you were asked to counsel for 15 years?

How many did you counsel and in what capacity? Are you a trained counselor?

How is it you know so many LGBT people?

How is it you know those with Sweeneys syndrome?

Clarify your empiricism.

I’ve asked you before and I’ll ask you again: address yourself to the question and stop trying to drag my background into your arguments. It is of no concern to you and I shall certainly not be divulging it on an internet site.

Also, I was under the understanding that dragging quotes from other threads and posting them out of context in separate discussions was against the rules on this site.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ve asked you before and I’ll ask you again: address yourself to the question and stop trying to drag my background into your arguments. It is of no concern to you and I shall certainly not be divulging it on an internet site.

Dex,

Then your opinions remain your opinions that are without any substantiation and that is OK…many people have opinions…

Your belief that Homosexuals are Homosexuals are just like being born with blue eyes=immutable=Essentialism…is not true

Your belief that the only counseling for Homosexuals should be acceptance of their Homosexuality is consistent with the LGBT propaganda of the American Psychiatric Association…and that is not true

Your belief that having a same sex relationship is OK and does no harm is your opinion

Your belief that there is Gay and Straight is not consistent with the thoughts of the Catholic Medical Association…and that is your opinion…

I understand you have an opinion…it might be best to render these opinions as your opinions without any scientific or supportive basis and that is Ok…your resorting to “I know many”…should be left out because the question will come up…

How is it you know so many?

How is it you were called to counsel?

In what capacity did you counsel?

These are your secrets and for reasons known only to you should be kept private…I as a physician…with schooling, with training, with experience…have no concern about expressing what I know and learned, what I have seen and experienced, and what is and is not true based on science…if you have a problem for whatever reason, it should be respected…

So…let us just accept that you have unfounded, unsubstantiated opinions that you keep private for reasons known only to you that should be respected and anyone reading your opinions should understand that it is only

an opinion…Ok…

 

[CatholicSheila]

The Good News is we don’t have to judge them - God will. We just have to forgive them.

We have to forgive them? Perhaps, as a group for the damage done to society. Or if they as individuals have actually harmed us.

In general, we don’t have to forgive them because they haven’t sinned against us. They’ve sinned against God, and God will forgive them (or not).

 

[CatholicSheila]

TheBreak: Gay are getting killed everyday, they are the most hated group on earth at this age,

Moore11:
What? You are doing a huge disservice to those who are actually persecuted. Shame on you.

Whilst gays may not be the most hated group on Earth, it is dishonest to suggest they are not persecuted. There are many places where they are. The OP brought up Iran, but there are many people who persecute homosexuals in the west as well.

 

[CopticChristian]

We have to forgive them? Perhaps, as a group for the damage done to society. Or if they as individuals have actually harmed us.

In general, we don’t have to forgive them because they haven’t sinned against us. They’ve sinned against God, and God will forgive them (or not).

CatholicSheila,

I understand your point of view. I add that the Church teaches as follows…we should Pray for them…and we should instruct those that propagate falsely…

Homosexuality is fixed…this needs to be corrected as it is not true

The only Counseling for Homosexuals is acceptance…this needs to be corrected as this is not true

Same Sex relationships harm no one…this needs correction as this is not true

The tragedy is that you will see those on this site with the Monikor “Catholic” espousing the agenda of the American Psychiatric Assocation…and if there is any behavior that is fixed it is this Fundamentalist point of view and acceptance of this point of view…this needs correction…

In the pastoral field, these homosexuals must certainly be treated with understanding and sustained in the hope of overcoming their personal difficulties and their inability to fit into society. Their culpability will be judged with prudence. But no pastoral method can be employed which would give moral justification to these acts on the grounds that they would be consonant with the condition of such people. For according to the objective moral order, homosexual relations are acts which lack an essential and indispensable finality. In Sacred Scripture they are condemned as a serious depravity and even presented as the sad consequence of rejecting God.[18] This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and can in no case be approved of.

and please note that the Church in teaching, as noted above reference #18 is this…

1. Rom 1:24-27 “That is why God left them to their filthy enjoyments and the practices with which they dishonor their own bodies since they have given up Divine truth for a lie and have worshipped and served creatures instead of the Creator, Who is blessed forever. Amen! That is why God has abandoned them to degrading passions; why their women have turned from natural intercourse to unnatural practices and why their menfolk have given up natural intercourse to be consumed with passion for each other, men doing shameless things with men and getting an appropriate reward for their perversion” See also what St. Paul says of “masculorum concubitores” in I Cor 6:10; I Tim 1:10.

Pray for those that need to heed the call to God, pray for those that are misguided by the secular world and accept the fixed thinking of the LGBT agenda as proposed by the American Psychiatric Association and forgive as forgiveness allows…

 

[CopticChristian]

Whilst gays may not be the most hated group on Earth, it is dishonest to suggest they are not persecuted. There are many places where they are. The OP brought up Iran, but there are many people who persecute homosexuals in the west as well.

CatholicSheila,

I would not give too much credence to this notion of persecution and oppression, while it does exist. Uncivilized people do uncivilized things…when it comes to oppression consider the following…

etd.lib.montana.edu/etd/2006/kneeland/KneelandL0506.pdf

AFRICAN AMERICAN SUFFERING
AND SUICIDE UNDER SLAVERY
by
Linda Kay Kneeland

A thesis submitted in partial fulfillment
of the requirements for the degree
of Master of Art sin History

MONTANA STATE UNIVERSITY
Bozeman, Montana

novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2646

Book Description:
The purpose of this new and important book is to explore the phenomena of the low suicide rate in the concentration camps during the Holocaust, and why its survivors seem to become increasingly susceptible to suicide, as they grow older.

guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jan/11/suicide-deaths-prison-uk-statistics

Suicides in prison: latest figures on self-inflicted deaths in custody

bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/shsplj.pdf

Suicide and Homicide
in State Prisons and Local Jails

Black Slaves, The Jews in Concentration Camps and people in Jail are oppressed and when looking at those that were truly oppressed, the rates of suicide are lower than the Homosexual population at large…there is no correlation with oppression and the high rates of suicide…that is seen in the Homosexual population…

This is a red herring…Homosexuals have many other problems other than oppression…

 

[DexUK]

Homosexuals have many other problems other than oppression…

Are you honestly saying that we shouldn’t be paying much if any attention to the persecution of homosexual people in ‘less civilised’ places in the world, for example in Uganda where laws have been enacted punishing homosexual behaviour by death?

Are you actually saying this persecution either doesn’t exist or isn’t worth worrying about?

 

[CopticChristian]

Are you honestly saying that we shouldn’t be paying much if any attention to the persecution of homosexual people in ‘less civilised’ places in the world, for example in Uganda where laws have been enacted punishing homosexual behaviour by death?

Are you actually saying this persecution either doesn’t exist or isn’t worth worrying about?

Dex,

Uncivilized people do uncivilized things. To say that the Homosexual Population that has been studied has a High Suicide rate because of oppression is a red herring…

psychcentral.com/lib/2011/higher-risk-of-mental-health-problems-for-homosexuals/

His team looked at rates of mental disorder among 7,403 adults living in the UK, whose details were obtained from the Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey 2007. Rates of depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, phobia, self-harm, suicidal thoughts, and alcohol and drug dependence were significantly higher in homosexual respondents.
Four percent had a depressive episode in the last week, compared to two percent of heterosexual people. The rate of alcohol dependence was ten percent versus five percent, and for self-harming it was nine percent versus five percent.

The proportion of homosexual people who described themselves as being fairly or very happy was 30 percent, versus 40 percent for heterosexual people.

Dr. Chakraborty believes the findings are “very worrying.” He said, “This study is the first time the mental health and well-being of gay, lesbian and bisexual people has been examined in a random sample of the population.

“Our study confirms earlier work carried out in the UK, USA and Holland which suggests that non-heterosexual people are at higher risk of mental disorder, suicidal ideation, substance misuse and self-harm than heterosexual people.”

traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a02rStatistcs.html

• 73% of psychiatrists say homosexuals are less happy than the average person, and of those psychiatrists, 70% say that the unhappiness is NOT due to social stigmatization (13).
• 25-33% of homosexuals and lesbians are alcoholics (11).
• Of homosexuals questioned in one study reports that 43% admit to 500 or more partners in a lifetime, 28% admit to 1000 or more in a lifetime, and of these people, 79% say that half of those partners are total strangers, and 70% of those sexual contacts are one night stands (or, as one homosexual admits in the film “The Castro”, one minute stands) (3). Also, it is a favorite past-time of many homosexuals to go to “cruisy areas” and have anonymous sex.
• 78% of homosexuals are affected by STDs (20).
• Judge John Martaugh, chief magistrate of the New York City Criminal Court has said, “Homosexuals account for half the murders in large cities” (10).
• Captain William Riddle of the Los Angeles Police says, “30,000 sexually abused children in Los Angeles were victims of homosexuals” (10).
• 50% of suicides can be attributed to homosexuals (10).

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502263/posts

The Statistics on Homosexuality and its Effects
Catholic Apologetics International ^
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 2:03:29 AM by Exton1
The Statistics on Homosexuality and its Effects Catholic Apologetics International

Looking at Suicide alone…or taking Suicide out of the discussion…Homosexuals have many other problems and when looking at Suicide in General…

Suicide (French: Le Suicide), Durkheim, was one of the groundbreaking books in the field of sociology.

Durkheim concluded that:

Suicide rates are higher in men than women (although married women who remained childless for a number of years ended up with a high suicide rate).
Suicide rates are higher for those who are single than those who are married.
Suicide rates are higher for people without children than people with children.
Suicide rates are higher among Protestants than Catholics and Jews.
Suicide rates are higher among soldiers than civilians.
Suicide rates are higher in times of peace than in times of war (the suicide rate in France fell after the coup d’etat of Louis Bonaparte, for example. War also reduced the suicide rate, after war broke out in 1866 between Austria and Italy, the suicide rate fell by 14% in both countries.)
Suicide rates are higher in Scandinavian countries.
the higher the education level, the more likely it was that an individual would commit suicide, however Durkheim established that there is more correlation between an individual’s religion and suicide rate than an individual’s education level; Jewish people were generally highly educated but had a low suicide rate.

So, are we to believe that Homosexuals reside in Scandinavia, should be given children, should not participate in the military and should not be educated or convert to Judaism?

 

[Philomenaa]

You aren’t looking at the big picture, you’re only questioning one detail of it. See, everyone is born with original sin, and everyone gets tempted to commit different sins. We are all unique. Does that make it any less wrong for homosexuals to pursue their particular brand of sin? No. Does that mean we should hate the homosexuals that still do? Also no. Just because one is tempted to sin doesn’t mean it’s right for them to give up on trying to be good and follow a life of sin. You get farther by picking yourself back up and walking than by staying on the ground. But you are right in saying (implying, really) that we shouldn’t judge others because they sin differently than we do.

 

[CopticChristian]

You aren’t looking at the big picture, you’re only questioning one detail of it. See, everyone is born with original sin, and everyone gets tempted to commit different sins. We are all unique. Does that make it any less wrong for homosexuals to pursue their particular brand of sin? No. Does that mean we should hate the homosexuals that still do? Also no. Just because one is tempted to sin doesn’t mean it’s right for them to give up on trying to be good and follow a life of sin. You get farther by picking yourself back up and walking than by staying on the ground. But you are right in saying (implying, really) that we shouldn’t judge others because they sin differently than we do.

Philomenaa,

No one I can see is saying that. Homosexuals/action are not a special brand of sin. They are not born that way, they can change, and the Church and I accept that.

Rapists, Adulters, Fornicators, Homosexuals, Masturbators, Prostitutites, Pornographers Incest and the like sin…these are all sins against Chastity…

What you have done is what you have done…heeding the call to God is open to all as God calls all…but the nonsense of saying that a “homosexual person” that comes to God remains a “homosexual person” is nonsense…

Let’s just get out the branding Iron or Monogrammed t-shirts and start labeling people that come to Church so we can know them by their past life…let us just reintroduce Nathaniel Hawthorne and the Protestant mind set of the Scarlet Letter…

Former Rapist
Former Homosexual
Former Prostitute

In God we are a new creation and not our former selves…

What do you think we should do…brand them or accept them?

 

[CatholicSheila]

CatholicSheila,

I would not give too much credence to this notion of persecution and oppression, while it does exist. Uncivilized people do uncivilized things…when it comes to oppression consider the following…

etd.lib.montana.edu/etd/2006/kneeland/KneelandL0506.pdf

novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2646

guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jan/11/suicide-deaths-prison-uk-statistics

bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/shsplj.pdf

Black Slaves, The Jews in Concentration Camps and people in Jail are oppressed and when looking at those that were truly oppressed, the rates of suicide are lower than the Homosexual population at large…there is no correlation with oppression and the high rates of suicide…that is seen in the Homosexual population…

This is a red herring…Homosexuals have many other problems other than oppression…

Homosexuals can not be persecuted because they commit suicide too often?

The rate of suicide is higher among homosexuals. Another poster said the suicide rate was because of persecution, but I personally don’t believe that and never suggested it.

It doesn’t prove they aren’t persecuted though. Unless you can give studies that specifically show persecution and suicide can not co-exist? You’ve only shown studies which say persecution doesn’t cause suicide, not that they’re mutually exclusive. Since you mentioned the holocause estimates put approximately 500 000 homosexuals killed in the camps as well. Were they not persecuted too, despite the fact that homosexuals have high suicide rates? Using your argument, no, they weren’t. And really, I’m sure there were both Jews and slaves who did kill themselves - either by giving in and allowing themselves to be killed, or by actually doing the act themselves.

Is it possible that Jews had something to hang onto? That the slaves had something to hang onto? Their faith perhaps? Hope? Family? A combination of some, or all of them? Perhaps it is not the persecution that drives homosexuals to suicide, but the lack of one of these? There are numerous things that come into play about why one group survived and one gave up.

Reality is, homosexuals have been killed for their sexuality. They’ve been mistreated and abused. They’ve been denied housing and employment. That there is a greater likelihood of mental illness doesn’t change the ability of others to persecute them. In some place, it is still routine.

This in no way makes homosexual actions OK, but if we’re going to have an open discussion about these things we need to be honest.

 

[CopticChristian]

Homosexuals can not be persecuted because they commit suicide too often?

The rate of suicide is higher among homosexuals. Another poster said the suicide rate was because of persecution, but I personally don’t believe that and never suggested it.

It doesn’t prove they aren’t persecuted though. Unless you can give studies that specifically show persecution and suicide can not co-exist? You’ve only shown studies which say persecution doesn’t cause suicide, not that they’re mutually exclusive. Since you mentioned the holocause estimates put approximately 500 000 homosexuals killed in the camps as well. Were they not persecuted too, despite the fact that homosexuals have high suicide rates? Using your argument, no, they weren’t. And really, I’m sure there were both Jews and slaves who did kill themselves - either by giving in and allowing themselves to be killed, or by actually doing the act themselves.

That there is a greater likelihood of mental illness doesn’t change the ability of others to persecute them. In some place, it is still routine.

This is no way make homosexual actions ok, but if we’re going to have an open discussion about these things we need to be honest.

Sheila,

Is it possible that Jews had something to hang onto? That the slaves had something to hang onto? Their faith perhaps? Hope? Family? A combination of some, or all of them? Perhaps it is not the persecution that drives homosexuals to suicide, but the lack of one of these? There are numerous things that come into play about why one group survived and one gave up.

Freud, Adler, Jung and here you have stumbled on the next school of Psychotherapy, Victor Frankl…Logotherapy…having meaning…life has meaning…it is the individual not society that supplies that meaning and for the individual to suffer suggests that the individual has issues with supplying meaning…

If you believe behavior is fixed, if you believe that your plight is unchangeable, if you believe that there is nothing you can do about your behavior…then that may be a reason to lose hope and the Fundamentalist fixed thinking of the American Psychiatric Association may be doing more harm than good…particularly since it is not true…this takes away all hope for any change and there is possibility of change…this is damage…

Reality is, homosexuals have been killed for their sexuality. They’ve been mistreated and abused. They’ve been denied housing and employment.

Yes, I recall too many Homosexuals, Transgendered coming to the emergency room because they put themselves in a position to solicit other men and when discovered were assaulted…too, too many…they are the cause of their own harm in some cases…

You may want to check your facts on employment…this is a non-argument…

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502263/posts

Homosexuals aren’t discriminated against in employment, so why should they be a protected class?

• The average yearly income of a homosexual is $55,430.00 (most of which is disposable because no children to take care of!). The average of the general population is $32,144.00. The average of blacks is $12,166.00 (24)
• 59.6% of homosexuals are college graduates. 18.0% of the general population are college graduates (24). Too bad they aren’t smart enough to listen to God. “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools” (Romans 1:22)
• 49.0% of homosexuals hold professional/managerial positions. 15.9% of the general population hold such positions (24). Where’s the job discrimination?

 

[CatholicSheila]

CatholicSheila,

I understand your point of view. I add that the Church teaches as follows…we should Pray for them…and we should instruct those that propagate falsely…

Homosexuality is fixed…this needs to be corrected as it is not true

The only Counseling for Homosexuals is acceptance…this needs to be corrected as this is not true

Same Sex relationships harm no one…this needs correction as this is not true

The tragedy is that you will see those on this site with the Monikor “Catholic” espousing the agenda of the American Psychiatric Assocation…and if there is any behavior that is fixed it is this Fundamentalist point of view and acceptance of this point of view…this needs correction…

and please note that the Church in teaching, as noted above reference #18 is this…

Pray for those that need to heed the call to God, pray for those that are misguided by the secular world and accept the fixed thinking of the LGBT agenda as proposed by the American Psychiatric Association and forgive as forgiveness allows…

What does any of this have to do with my comment?

It Bob engages in homosexual behaviour, how is it that he needs your (or my) forgiveness? He has not sinned against me. I will pray he repents, he starts to live chastely, and that he ask for Gods forgiveness.

If a homosexual ever came up to me and asked for my forgiveness, I’d tell them it wasn’t necessary, unless that behaviour actually involved me. They have not sinned against me.