C
- Status
D
DexUK
Guest
You, sir, are being rude. I won’t dignify that remark with any further comment.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Dex,
Forgive what you percieve to be rude. You have admitted this and all I did was reference what you have said in prior posts. If you have an MD, if you have any clinical training in the field of medicine or expertise in behavioral science, please confirm that and I would accept that as evidence of what your statements have led me to believe.
this does not change this statement…
C
CatholicSheila
Guest
On this, I agree with Coptic. CBT is used extensively to teach people they aren’t their thoughts. Some people assume because they think they’re worthless, that they are worthless. Would you say that they are right? Just because they feel that way?
We can’t discount our thoughts, dreams, desires etc, but we need to be careful about how we let them define who we are. We need to make sure they’re healthy. If they’re not, we need to reject them - we’re going to disagree about whether homosexuality falls into healthy or unhealthy, but the simply fact that it’s an unconscious desire doesn’t make it so.
E
Edward_H
Guest
Is this yet another “push poll” attempting to insert an unsupported assertion to slowly sway uninformed public opinion, in this case Catholics?
There are probably 8 new threads a week on this site which try to do this, most of them started by new members…and if you look at what other posts they are trying to influence you see the same sort of push poll going on…same subject.
Why does God allow murderers to be born? Thieves, rapists, pedaphiles, adulterers, swingers, bestialists? Were they born like that too? Or we’re they shaped, reinforced in little ways over the years? Habitual masturbators?
Sexual “variances,” especially enduring ones, are better explained by the enormously powerful reinforcing effect that sex can have on behavior, than some sort of mythical, magical sex gene. When you see a common drive, expressed in a range of ways, parsimony suggests a simpler answer: sexual reinforcement.
Genes give us excuses to not pursue virtue. Struggling to bring our behavior in line with God’s will is the common lot of all of us.
There are probably 8 new threads a week on this site which try to do this, most of them started by new members…and if you look at what other posts they are trying to influence you see the same sort of push poll going on…same subject.
Why does God allow murderers to be born? Thieves, rapists, pedaphiles, adulterers, swingers, bestialists? Were they born like that too? Or we’re they shaped, reinforced in little ways over the years? Habitual masturbators?
Sexual “variances,” especially enduring ones, are better explained by the enormously powerful reinforcing effect that sex can have on behavior, than some sort of mythical, magical sex gene. When you see a common drive, expressed in a range of ways, parsimony suggests a simpler answer: sexual reinforcement.
Genes give us excuses to not pursue virtue. Struggling to bring our behavior in line with God’s will is the common lot of all of us.
D
Deana83
Guest
I agree with you for several reasons. I have some very close friends and relatives who are gay and in very committed relationships. They’re relationships are much healthier than many heterosexual couples I know. I’m heterosexual and I’ve been in some dysfunctional and abusive relationships, I’m no stranger to sin, I’ve broken every commandment except for murder but if you count a suicide attempt than I’ve broke that one too. So you see I don’t feel like I’m in a position to judge anyone and I really don’t care if gay people get married but according to the Bible-it is against natural law but so is fornication, adultery, gluttony, sloth, pride, drunkenous, etc. So who among us can throw stones? The Westboro Baptist Church? I wonder if these homophobes and gay bashers know that sins of the flesh are much easier to reconcile than sins of the spirit? Pride is a sin of the spirit. Pride is what causes self righteous people to kill gays or prostitutes or whatever group they feel doesn’t fit into the status quo. I’m not an expert on theology but I do believe that God will judge each one of our souls accordingly when the time is right and he is the only one who really knows what is in one’s heart, he’s the only one qualified. I will continue to love gay people, and try to love everyone as Jesus taught in the new testament. His love is merciful, forgiving, and perfect. That’s the God I believe in. Don’t let some hate mongers and pharisees drive you away from God’s grace. I’ll pray for you and thanks for posting. I love your honesty and even if English isn’t your 1st language I understood you perfectly.
S
Seeker1961
Guest
The quote you included in the post I quoted…I thought that would be fairly clear to someone of your intelligence.
Let me make my point clear-I believe in a God that can change a person’s sexual orientation if it is His will. For all I know, He may have done that in some instances. I just don’t think He does it all the time, and I don’t think people should be condemned, looked down upon, bullied, excluded or in any way disrespected because God didn’t choose to change their orientation.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
CatholicSheila,
When you consider this notion of we are our behavior a compare and contrast with the notion of addiction is relevant.
We are our behavior=12 step religion AA/disease model…with a 5% success rate that is dismal…forever and a day you are an alcoholic/addict.
You are not your behavior…the top 5 methods of addressing addiction as habit, that includes CBT has a better success rate and proven scientific track record than you are your behavior as seen here…
behaviortherapy.com/ResearchDiv/whatworks.aspx
So to doom someone by their behavior and label them is the least successful mode of accessing and accomplishing change in any circumstance…
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Seeker,The quote you included in the post I quoted…I thought that would be fairly clear to someone of your intelligence.
Let me make my point clear-I believe in a God that can change a person’s sexual orientation if it is His will. For all I know, He may have done that in some instances. I just don’t think He does it all the time, and I don’t think people should be condemned, looked down upon, bullied, excluded or in any way disrespected because God didn’t choose to change their orientation.
Thank you for acknowledging that I was created with intelligence. I like to cautiously approach a request with clarity…let me be clear…many reference the Catechism and cite the following…all I could see was grey in the box and I was not sure…
Now if you see this, look at those little numbers, 141 & 142…those are the citations that formulated those bullet points. The thing I love about the Church is that as you read documents, as you look at the references that provided those thoughts and opinions there is consistency…getting back to the numbers…go down to the bottom of the page…here is the Catechism reference…
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
What you see in the Catechism is based on these references…here you will find #142…
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html
and in that section concerning Homosexuality you will find what I produced, basically from the compendium, if you will, and notice that reference #18 is as follows…
So, yes, this is from the Catechism
I posted an intelligent answer that would be intelligently understood and hopefully intelligently accepted…
S
Seeker1961
Guest
I’ve actually read those references more than a few times…and I still do not see where the Church expressly states that any person can change their sexual orientation.
If you come to it with a bias that sexual orientation can be changed, then you can certainly interpret it that way, but there is no express statement that the Church makes about changing orientation.
What the Church does say is:
If you come to it with a bias that sexual orientation can be changed, then you can certainly interpret it that way, but there is no express statement that the Church makes about changing orientation.
What the Church does say is:
–clearly talking about ACTIONS here, not orientation.
As the cause is “unexplained”…where would the instruction be that it is changeable or that it must be changed?
C
CatholicSheila
Guest
Do you think I was disagreeing with you, or are you just providing more information?I agreed with you on CBT. You are preaching to the choir on this one. It’s a wonderful tool that changes lives.
edit: it just clicked. You are trying to show CBT can change sexualtiy. I honestly have never considered that. My initial reaction is no, but I’ll have to give it some thought.
It does help illustrate that just because we think something, does’t make it so and that our thoughts shouldn’t necessarily define us.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Dakota
**
Where could CAIS come from? Where could cystic fibrosis come from? Where could hereditary diabetes come from? Where could…**
Not sure as to your point. Are you saying that the same sex attraction is an inherited disease? That’s never been proven. The environmental factor is paramount. Although if you have inherited bad parents (siblings or neighbors) that might help to produce the bad environment that leads to same sex attraction.
**
Where could CAIS come from? Where could cystic fibrosis come from? Where could hereditary diabetes come from? Where could…**
Not sure as to your point. Are you saying that the same sex attraction is an inherited disease? That’s never been proven. The environmental factor is paramount. Although if you have inherited bad parents (siblings or neighbors) that might help to produce the bad environment that leads to same sex attraction.
S
Seeker1961
Guest
“Bad” environment does not equal same sex attraction. There is absolutely no objective evidence of that.
and it’s an insult to all the heterosexual parents who did all the “right” things and still have a gay child.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Seeker,
We are not our sins…and the Catechism talks of healing of our sins. In Mass we ask that the Lord not look on our sins…things we do…
Lord Jesus Christ, who said to your Apostles, Peace I leave you, my peace I give you, look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and graciously grant her peace and unity in accordance with your will. Who live and reign for ever and ever.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm
If we are healed by the great Physician God of our sins by conversion then we are not our sin.
Concerning Sin…the Church nowhere teaches that we are our sin…we sin…by utterance, deed or desire but we are not our utteranc, deed or desire or we could not be healed…
Sin is act, disobedience, a wound an injury, an utterance, a deed, an act…but we are not defined by any of this…we are not our act, we are not forever wounded unless we choose to remain unrepentant…1870 “God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all” (Rom 11:32).
1871 **Sin is an utterance, a deed, or a desire **contrary to the eternal law (St. Augustine, Faust 22L 42, 418). **It is an offense **against God. It rises up against God in a **disobedience **contrary to the obedience of Christ.
1872 Sin is an **act **contrary to reason. It wounds man’s nature and **injures **human solidarity.
1873 The root of all sins lies in man’s heart. The kinds and the gravity of sins are determined principally by their objects.
1874 To **choose **deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death.
1875 Venial sin constitutes a moral disorder that is reparable by charity, which it allows to subsist in us.
1876 The repetition of sins - even venial ones - engenders vices, among which are the capital sins.
We are not our actions, we are not our sins by desire, utterance or deed…it is things we do but not who we are…
S
Seeker1961
Guest
Ok, so now you are back to actions. I don’t disagree that we choose our actions. However, that is not the question I asked. I asked about changing orientation.
Either the Church says that gays must change their orientation or it doesn’t. I have not seen evidence that She does. Being gay myself, this has been an issue for pretty much all my life. I’ve done a little bit of research on it and discussed it with more than a few Priests, Sisters and Professors. In all cases, I have been told that while the Church does demand that I control my actions in accordance with the teachings on sexuality, it does NOT demand that I change who I am attracted to in order to remain Catholic or to be accepted by God.
My attractions are the same now as they were when I had my first crush. I would hazard a guess that is true for you as well. However, my choices about handling my attractions have changed since I made a commitment to Christ.
I’ve got to leave for work…so I’ll be bowing out for today.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
CatholicSheila,
I agreed with you on CBT. You are preaching to the choir on this one. It’s a wonderful tool that changes lives.
edit: it just clicked. You are trying to show CBT can change sexualtiy. I honestly have never considered that. My initial reaction is no, but I’ll have to give it some thought.
It does help illustrate that just because we think something, does’t make it so and that our thoughts shouldn’t necessarily define us.
Amen.
Reports of change for Homosexuals exist in the
Psychoanalytic Literature
Behavioral Therapy Literature
Group Therapy Literature
Sex Therapy Literature
Religous group
Reports of Spontaneous change
Weinrich, J. D. & Klein, F. (2002). Bi-gay, bi-straight, and bi-bi: Three bisexual subgroups identified using cluster analysis of the Klein sexual orientation grid. Journal of Bisexuality, 2, 109-139.
The American Psychiatric Association/LGBT Fundamentalist view of fixed behavior is nonsense…there are many modes of addressing change…an eclectic view should be adopted, just as in the field of addiction that is filled with too many…“it worked for me”…for those believing AA is the only way, and when looking at the flip side of the coin concerning Homosexuality "it did not work for me "…concerning one attempt with one modality, .just means that you have not found the right avenue for change as there are many avenues yet to be explored and one that may fit you…
C
CopticChristian
Guest
Seeker,Ok, so now you are back to actions. I don’t disagree that we choose our actions. However, that is not the question I asked. I asked about changing orientation.
Either the Church says that gays must change their orientation or it doesn’t. I have not seen evidence that She does. Being gay myself, this has been an issue for pretty much all my life. I’ve done a little bit of research on it and discussed it with more than a few Priests, Sisters and Professors. In all cases, I have been told that while the Church does demand that I control my actions in accordance with the teachings on sexuality, it does NOT demand that I change who I am attracted to in order to remain Catholic or to be accepted by God.
My attractions are the same now as they were when I had my first crush. I would hazard a guess that is true for you as well. However, my choices about handling my attractions have changed since I made a commitment to Christ.
I’ve got to leave for work…so I’ll be bowing out for today.
No one says you have to change your desires unless you want to and if you want to have you looked to see if you can? Unless you are motivated then you will remain as you are. Until you have a reason to change, motivation, then there will be no change.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Seeker
**“Bad” environment does not equal same sex attraction. There is absolutely no objective evidence of that.
and it’s an insult to all the heterosexual parents who did all the “right” things and still have a gay child. **
This simply is not true. Homosexual communities exist to further the homosexual agenda. No parent can know the extent, even having done “all the right things,” to which their children have been exposed to adult pedophiles of the same sex.
Stop blaming it on nature and look to all the homosexual adults who have corrupted children.
**“Bad” environment does not equal same sex attraction. There is absolutely no objective evidence of that.
and it’s an insult to all the heterosexual parents who did all the “right” things and still have a gay child. **
This simply is not true. Homosexual communities exist to further the homosexual agenda. No parent can know the extent, even having done “all the right things,” to which their children have been exposed to adult pedophiles of the same sex.
Stop blaming it on nature and look to all the homosexual adults who have corrupted children.
C
CatholicSheila
Guest
There are numerous people who are SSA and were not abused by homosexual adults, and the claim is incredibly insulting to both those suffering with SSA and those who took care of them.
Unless you are claiming all the homosexuals are liars? Even those with SSA who choose to live in line with Church teaching? In which case, you’re just a troll. Grow up.
C
CopticChristian
Guest
CatholicSheila,
I agree with you. Attempting to discover cause and effect, in my opinion, does little to help solve a problem. This emanates from a Psychological theory that insight provides understanding that causes change. I believe that whatever the problem is should be addressed without attempting to look for cause and effect. Clients sometimes lend themselves to that thinking offering…“the reason I do this is because when I was young, etc”…this should be honored and then…“now what is it you want to do…” should be offered…acknowledge, accept and address what it is the client wants to change…
- Status