Why God allowed gays to born?

[90Domer]

Crumbs. You’re throwing a lot of my words back at me as though somehow you’re proving a point. The only points you’re proving is that you’re very keen on ad-hominem attacks and that you’re so completely stuck in your views that you’re unwilling to be charitable to anyone… myself or SSA people. And that is not behaviour that is becoming in a Christian.

How about you look hard into yourself and ask yourself “what effect do I want my words to have?” and, more importantly, “what effect will my words have?”. Until the answers to both of those questions are the same, you are clearly failing to get your point across at best and being deliberately and wilfully uncharitable at worst.

In CC’s defense, I really don’t see where he was being uncharitable. I thought his questions were quite relevant and you answered his questions with attacks of your own. You did the same thing you were claiming he did to you. That’s not good.

 

[90Domer]

As regards the subject of this thread, no faithful Catholic should do anything other than read the Catechism of the Catholic Church which contains all they need to know about the subject:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P85.HTM

It is irrelevant whether a person is born or ‘made’ homosexually inclined. What is relevant is that every such person is treated according to the rules set out in the catechism: respectfully, compassionately, sensitively. Unjust discrimination should be avoided. It is therefore implicit that these prescriptions include both words and deeds.

Follow the Catechism and you won’t go wrong. Remember, that also means to ensure that you “judge not, lest you yourself be judged”.

We are not to give the impression that we wish fire and brimstone to be brought down upon homosexuals, nor are we to judge their state in life according to our suppositions about the cause of homosexuality.

If we say that a homosexual person is oriented that way out of choice we make a judgement that we’re not entitled to make.

If we say that a homosexually inclined person may change according to an effort of his will, then we judge that person - in particular we do so contrary to the Catechism which states of homosexuality “Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.” If it is not explained, then it is not possible to state with certainty in a way that is compatible with the virtue of Charity that a person may be changeable in their orientation.

We don’t have to do anything that goes against our consciences, but equally we are not to make judgements about others. That judgement is reserved to God and God alone. He will be the Judge and His verdict will be perfect.

I’m happy to leave it to God. Are you?

I think you need to be asking this question to the SSA community, because they do far more judging than any Catholic person I have seen. Am I not being judged when, by living out the Catechism, I am labeled a homophobe?

 

[CatholicSheila]

CBT will enable a person to give less ‘weight’ to their desires: take the person with OCD for example… they might have an excessive desire to wash their hands to such an extent that they scrub and scrub and eventually draw blood… CBT can help deal with the faulty ‘aberrant’ thought processes involved in compulsive behaviour: but that person won’t ever turn into a completely ‘dirty’ person instead… the desire to keep clean will remain, but it can be managed through the mental techniques learned in therapy. Likewise for various phobias, etc. While I can see that it would help a person modify their behaviour if, say, they were addicted to something, but I don’t think homosexuality as an orientation is in any way amendable by CBT techniques: only the behaviour is.

This has gone off topic, so I’ll let it go. I don’t want to get into my personal experiences on this.

 

[CatholicSheila]

I think you need to be asking this question to the SSA community, because they do far more judging than any Catholic person I have seen. Am I not being judged when, by living out the Catechism, I am labeled a homophobe?

Catholics are required to live according to Catholic teaching. Non-Catholics are not.

So, I see no problem with holding Catholics to a higher expectation of Charity. Quite the opposite.

 

[buffalo]

My husband is a statistician and pointed this out to me. And I agree with you having seen how SSA played out in his family. I never held firm to the “born that way” theory because there is a large part of child development (birth to 3) that most children will no remember–autistic kids being one exception. We know that children who received poor care and little nurturing as infants faced difficult lives ahead of them. To some extent, I can rationalize how kids growing up in certain environments may be confused about gender identity and develop SSA.

What I am about to write is going to receive major flack, but here it goes. With most developmental differences that fall outside the norm–autism, cerebral palsy, mental retardation, ADHD to name a few–we strive to provide therapy for the kids so that they become mainstream, as most school districts call it. Why is SSA so different? As with these other conditions, there are very good reasons to “mainstream” these kids. Instead, society is doing just the opposite. We are affirming SSA at younger and younger ages. We are embracing traits of SSA as great and wonderful when, in fact, there are many traits about it which are hazardous to the health of the SSA individual. Why is this the case? Honestly, I have never been able to reconcile that.

Because acceptance is misconstrued for love and helping each other get to heaven.

 

[CopticChristian]

Incidentally, most of those references are 40 to 50 years old or more.

Considering that the science of psychology and psychiatry is quite a young specialisation and has moved on a lot further these days compared to when people were still being routinely given old-fashioned and deeply inappropriate electro-shock convulsion therapy and frontal-lobotomies, perhaps when you’ve got some extensive global peer-reviewed work referring to a large population of individuals and carried out with medically relevant double blind tests to refer to that has been completed within, say, the last 10 years, perhaps then I’ll take a little more notice of you.

Dex,

Your musings are irritating. You remind me of the people that used to come to my office believing that they understood the practice of medicine by getting their information from whatever source and then trying to be logical with their logic.

If you were in the healthcare field this conversation would not be happening. The practice of medicine is based on History…yup, just like the Deposit of Faith…you cannot change the past of what has been discovered in Medicine…it is what it is.

Hypnosis for instance…it was discovered that Hypnosis could be used in Surgery and it is detailed in at least these two books…they are old…so what…it proves what can be done…that is what Physicians and real scientists do…they look to see what has been proved and has been done…

Hypnosis in Medicine and Surgery [Paperback]
James Esdaile

Dr. James Esdaile (1805-1859) performed over 300 operations using hypnosis as pain control. The development of chemical anaesthetics soon saw the replacement of hypnotism in this role.

The Roots of Modern Hypnosis:From Esdaile to the 1961 International Congress on Hypnosis [Kindle Edition]
Dr. Milton V. Kline

"The Roots of Modern Hypnosis: From Esdaile to the 1961 International Congress on Hypnosis encompasses the following three seminal works on the evolution of hypnosis:

Hypnosis in Medicine and Surgery (originally Mesmerism in India, circa 1850), is an exciting exploration by Dr. James Esdaile of anesthesia produced by ¡¡±Mesmerism¡¨ and its descendant, clinical hypnosis.

The Fundamental Principles of Hypnosis is a classic explanation of scientific hypnosis by Stanley Krebs, Ph.D. Fascinating reports describe hypnotherapy circa 1906.

The Nature of Hypnosis reproduces the annals of the first modern International Congress on Hypnosis (1961). Historical and clinical-experimental issues are addressed.

Now it is also known that other than Behavioral Therapy showing that Homosexuals can change the Hypotherapy literature also shows cases that report change…

Charcot, in 1882, published a paper entitled, “Inversion of the Genital Sense.” Charcot, already famous for his treatment of hysterics through hypnotic induction, applied the same therapeutic modality to homosexual men and reported success when “the homosexual patients became heterosexual” (Horstman, 1972, p. 5).

Horstman, W. R. (1972). Homosexuality and psychopathology: A study of the MMPI responses of homosexual and heterosexual male college students. Unpublished doctoral dissertation, University of Oregon, Eugene.

**Albert von Schrenck-Notzing (1892) had similar findings (Fine, 1987). **

Fine, R. (1987). Psychoanalytic theory. In L. Diamant (Ed.), Male and female homosexuality: Psychological approaches (pp. 81-95). Washington, DC: Hemisphere Publishing Corporation.

**Cafiso (1983) related success in treating a homosexual man by strengthening his ego through hypnosis. **

Cafiso, R. (1983). The homosexual: The advantages of hypnotherapy as treatment.

This result corresponds with the positive reports of hypnosis from Regardie (1949), Alexander (1967), and Roper (1967).

Regardie, F. I. (1949). Analysis of homosexuality. Psychiatric Quarterly, 23, 548-566.

Alexander, L. (1967). Psychotherapy of sexual deviations with the aid of hypnosis. American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis, 9(3), 181-183.

Roper, P. (1967). The effects of hypnotherapy on homosexuality. Canadian Medical Association Journal, 96(6), 319-327.

So, you don’t need a double blind anything to prove what is. You refuse to accept reality and your notion of modern, new, whatever does not equate to a Medical mind, a Therapist mind or any mind that understands science…please stop frustrating my intelligence, my education with your lack of understanding…accept reality.

Dr. Nicholas Cummings is a past president of the American Psychological Association. During his twenty years as Chief of Mental Health at Kaiser-Permanente Health Maintenance Organization (1959-1979) in San Francisco, he saw over 2,000 patients with same-sex attraction, his staff saw another 16,000, and he reported a 27% reorientation rate (Cummings, 2007).

Is the above modern enough for you…

 

[CopticChristian]

What correction?

CBT.

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

The clue is in bold…

Dex,

You continue to frustrate my educated mind and my Medical expertise with your lack of understanding. You propose that Behavioral therapy has not addressed Homosexuality and it has. Stand corrected.

 

[CopticChristian]

Only in very limited circumstances.

In the past, and certainly 50 years or so ago, it was still in use for a range of psychiatric and psychological conditions that no physician would ever contemplate using it for nowadays.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy

Dex,

This is your opinion substantiated by Wikipedia…please…:banghead:

 

[CopticChristian]

Incidentally, most of those references are 40 to 50 years old or more.

Considering that the science of psychology and psychiatry is quite a young specialisation and has moved on a lot further these days compared to when people were still being routinely given old-fashioned and deeply inappropriate electro-shock convulsion therapy and frontal-lobotomies, perhaps when you’ve got some extensive global peer-reviewed work referring to a large population of individuals and carried out with medically relevant double blind tests to refer to that has been completed within, say, the last 10 years, perhaps then I’ll take a little more notice of you.

Dex,

There is no one Psychotherapy…there are many…which school do you believe represents your point of view. In fact religion is part of Psychotherapy…

The history of Psychiatry is one of change and multiple approaches not the Fundamentalis that has been adopted by the APA…

 

[DexUK]

Dex,

Your musings are irritating. You remind me of the people that used to come to my office believing that they understood the practice of medicine by getting their information from whatever source and then trying to be logical with their logic.

If you were in the healthcare field this conversation would not be happening. The practice of medicine is based on History…yup, just like the Deposit of Faith…you cannot change the past of what has been discovered in Medicine…it is what it is.

Hypnosis for instance…it was discovered that Hypnosis could be used in Surgery and it is detailed in at least these two books…they are old…so what…it proves what can be done…that is what Physicians and real scientists do…they look to see what has been proved and has been done…

If psychology and psychotherapy were specifically physical sciences you might have a point, but as it is, it’s a treatment of the mind, and what was accepted practise 50-100 years ago may have been based on outdated understandings of the mode of operation of the mind. Science in this area has moved on. Old modes have been discarded as unsustainable supposition and guesswork.

For example: women are no longer diagnosed with Hysteria and then forcible given hysterectomies on the assumption that their mental problems stem from their uterus. If medical practise always built on that which went before, as you suggest, then hysterectomies would still be done in order to treat mania!

Honestly, you claim to have medical knowledge, and for all I know you actually do have some, but you make some particularly fantastical and absurd claims about the validity of psycho-analytical medicine from 50-100 years ago that no mainstream physician would have any time for.

 

[CopticChristian]

UK;10526951]

QUOTE]

Dex,

If psychology and psychotherapy were specifically physical sciences you might have a point, but as it is, it’s a treatment of the mind, and what was accepted practise 50-100 years ago may have been based on outdated understandings of the mode of operation of the mind. Science in this area has moved on. Old modes have been discarded as unsustainable supposition and guesswork.

St. Paul understsood the mind…be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind…John The Baptist knew the mind…repent=change your mind for the kingdom of God is at hand.

For example: women are no longer diagnosed with Hysteria and then forcible given hysterectomies on the assumption that their mental problems stem from their uterus. If medical practise always built on that which went before, as you suggest, then hysterectomies would still be done in order to treat mania!

Your generalized lack of understanding bringing up things we don’t do does not change what it. We used to use leeches for the wrong reason and guess what leeches are still used today for the right reason.

Honestly, you claim to have medical knowledge, and for all I know you actually do have some, but you make some particularly fantastical and absurd claims about the validity of psycho-analytical medicine from 50-100 years ago that no mainstream physician would have any time for./

and this is your opinion based on what

Wikipedia?
your 15 years as a counselor you cannot tell us about?

Mainstream is a non-medical, non-therapist use of words that betray your lack of understanding…no Physician or Therapists speaks of mainstream…only the secular world…thank you for that insight…

 

[90Domer]

Catholics are required to live according to Catholic teaching. Non-Catholics are not.

So, I see no problem with holding Catholics to a higher expectation of Charity. Quite the opposite.

And I am talking about Catholics in this case…militant Catholics who have bought the SSA agenda hook, line and sinker and are trying to convert me. I want to be free to live my faith as taught to me without being called a homophobe by Catholics who don’t agree with me.****

 

[CopticChristian]

And I am talking about Catholics in this case…militant Catholics who have bought the SSA agenda hook, line and sinker and are trying to convert me. I want to be free to live my faith as taught to me without being called a homophobe by Catholics who don’t agree with me.****

Domer,

Your retort is that you believe in the gospel and then ask if they might be

Evangeliumphobes…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Dex
**
In any case, even if a child may not be ‘born gay’, if sexuality is somehow fixed at a very early age in ways nobody can yet pin down, it certainly can’t be said to be a choice.**

Yet if it is not genetic one can certainly un-choose it. Anatomy may be destiny, but environment certainly isn’t.

**Also, if sexuality IS a choice, how come all those who insist that they could not possibly choose to be homosexual then go on to insist that homosexuals should choose to be heterosexual? It looks a lot like double standards to me… **

It’s only a double standard if you want it to be. This is very poor reasoning on your part. It’s as if you are saying that a child who learns to drink alcohol at an early age and becomes addicted could not or should not be expected at any time to desire to sober up.

Is it a hypocritical “double standard” that the adult who cannot imagine himself to be an alcoholic is really on a par with the alcoholic who cannot imagine himself to be sober?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

90Domer

“And I am talking about Catholics in this case…militant Catholics who have bought the SSA agenda hook, line and sinker and are trying to convert me. I want to be free to live my faith as taught to me without being called a homophobe by Catholics who don’t agree with me.”

Please don’t be discouraged by these cafeteria Catholics who blithely ignore the teachings of the Church.

Forgive them Father. They know not what they do. (Or perhaps they know exactly what they are doing. ****

 

[90Domer]

Domer,

Your retort is that you believe in the gospel and then ask if they might be

Evangeliumphobes…

Perfect! I need to keep this in my back pocket! God bless!

 

[CopticChristian]

90Domer

“And I am talking about Catholics in this case…militant Catholics who have bought the SSA agenda hook, line and sinker and are trying to convert me. I want to be free to live my faith as taught to me without being called a homophobe by Catholics who don’t agree with me.”

Please don’t be discouraged by these cafeteria Catholics who blithely ignore the teachings of the Church.

Forgive them Father. They know not what they do. (Or perhaps they know exactly what they are doing. ****

Char,

There are many on these threads that propose themselves to be Catholic and others that appear to be solid Christians…the simplest thing to do is ask these questions…

Do you believe that Homosexuality is like the color of your eyes and unchangeable?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Coptic
**
If you get no answer then what you have identified is someone that has swallowed the Red Pill of the American Psychatric Association and entered the matrix of Propaganda of the LGBT group…**

I don’t understand Catholics who adopt for their Catechism the publications of the American Psychiatric Association. Do they not know that psychologists are among the most atheist infiltrated professions?

 

[Seeker1961]

Coptic
**
If you get no answer then what you have identified is someone that has swallowed the Red Pill of the American Psychatric Association and entered the matrix of Propaganda of the LGBT group…**

I don’t understand Catholics who adopt for their Catechism the publications of the American Psychiatric Association. Do they not know that psychologists are among the most atheist infiltrated professions?

Actually if you get no answer it means people are just sick of it and have moved on to life in the real world.

It’s not like anyone’s mind is going to be changed here anyway.

 

[CopticChristian]

Actually if you get no answer it means people are just sick of it and have moved on to life in the real world.

It’s not like anyone’s mind is going to be changed here anyway.

Seeker,

The only way to know what a “no answer” means is to ask them what it means or wait for further posting to evaluate the content of their posting…if they have moved on then we should not see them posting on CAF anymore…

If no one is going to change their mind…then…why preach…why tell people to repent

Why say…repent=change your mind for the kingdom of God is at hand…

Why listen to Paul when he says “do not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind”…are you asking me to believe that people are conformed to the world and have no ability to change their minds?