Why God allows disabbilities to his creations?

[Matthew_J]

PennitentMan, I have had endless amounts of troubles with those very same questions (as well as many others).

I’ll share my thoughts on the subject with you. Bear in mind they may not represent strictly Catholic views. At this stage, I’m not educated enough to know whether they do or not.

I think Traditional Ang has provided the relevant quotes for this issue. This life is a test for each of us. It is the prelude to the everlasting life in paradise promised us. But first, we must earn it. And to do so, we must do our best abide by all of Jesus’ teachings, for He is the Way, the Truth and the Light.

Part of this is to willingly bear the crosses God has given us. It does seem unfair that some people, such as your son, must bear crosses of physical or mental disability. I’d say it would be equally unfair that people such as yourself are asked to bear the cross of having a son with such a condition? That cross itself is neither a mental or physical disability, but it is a significant cross, all the same.

Perhaps you can see where I’m going now? Perhaps each of us have equally significant crosses to bear, it’s just that they take on different forms. Some of those forms may be extremely difficult to see or comprehend, but they are still present.

Also, consider this. With disability, with suffering, with hardship, we are more easily entered into God’s grace. Such things humble us, and I’d say, in humility God takes great joy. It would be much, much more difficult for a man who has never been through any form of hardship to enter God’s grace. For such a man would place a higher value on the life he currently leads, and find it so much harder to relinquish his material pleasures, humble himself and follow Jesus. Perhaps that in itself is a cross to bear? The biggest thing to lose here is your soul, and eternal happiness with God.

This might be a touchy subject. I apologise if this offends or upsets you in any way and I respect that this may not be the most tactful thing to say. But, perhaps in a way, such disabilities are a gift from God? For they make it easier to follow Jesus?

They are simply my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Benadam]

Adam and Eve were not created with preternatural gifts including freedom from suffering and illness as well as bodily immortality. Human bodily corruption is a result of the fall.

Buffalo hit the nail on the head.

God revealed to Adam that he suffered the evil of loneliness. " It is not good that the man is alone". Paradise was intimacy with God not the absence of suffering.

The difference between us and Adam is Original Innocense. The innocent heart does not see evil in the experience of being. We now have become like God in that we ourselves judge what is evil and good.

 

[PennitentMan]

Hi Matthew. Sorry I haven’t been to this thread in a while, I just saw it now.

PennitentMan, I have had endless amounts of troubles with those very same questions (as well as many others).

I’ll share my thoughts on the subject with you. Bear in mind they may not represent strictly Catholic views. At this stage, I’m not educated enough to know whether they do or not.

It’s okay I sooo don’t have a Catholic view either

I think Traditional Ang has provided the relevant quotes for this issue. This life is a test for each of us. It is the prelude to the everlasting life in paradise promised us. But first, we must earn it. And to do so, we must do our best abide by all of Jesus’ teachings, for He is the Way, the Truth and the Light.

I thought the test that you must pass to obtain everlasting life was to believe and accept Jesus’ sacrifice? You are saved by grace and by Jesus’ sacrifice and no good deed or way of life can get you to heaven. Although (apparently) a bad deed can exclude you from it.

In Catholicism, they encourage suffering, apparently it brings you closer to god, but it’s not what saves you.

Part of this is to willingly bear the crosses God has given us.

So, the better we suffer and the more we suffer, the more we show god how we love him. The more suffering we get the more we increase our love for the person causing us to suffer?? Let me try that with my wife and see how long she stays with me…it’s unnatural!

It does seem unfair that some people, such as your son, must bear crosses of physical or mental disability. I’d say it would be equally unfair that people such as yourself are asked to bear the cross of having a son with such a condition? That cross itself is neither a mental or physical disability, but it is a significant cross, all the same.

I disagree….I think someone who stepped on an old landmine whilst going to fetch drinking water at the creek in Vietnam has a pretty ****** time ahead of them…much more than I have ahead of me caring for my son.

Perhaps you can see where I’m going now? Perhaps each of us have equally significant crosses to bear, it’s just that they take on different forms. Some of those forms may be extremely difficult to see or comprehend, but they are still present.

I understand and I agree that we all have crosses to bear, yes….but how did we come about these crosses? God punished Adam and Eve and every one of us for their deeds by inheriting concupiscence….and then we have to love the guy who gave these things to us?

Also, consider this. With disability, with suffering, with hardship, we are more easily entered into God’s grace. Such things humble us, and I’d say, in humility God takes great joy.

See my quote above on applying this to my wife…

It would be much, much more difficult for a man who has never been through any form of hardship to enter God’s grace. For such a man would place a higher value on the life he currently leads, and find it so much harder to relinquish his material pleasures, humble himself and follow Jesus. Perhaps that in itself is a cross to bear? The biggest thing to lose here is your soul, and eternal happiness with God.

I’m sure god could come up with a different way not to hurt the ones he supposedly love though…heck, even I can come up with a different way…maybe teaching the man about humility and fostering a good gentle heart in him, showing him consequences to actions, and demonstrating charity out of his prosperity rather than needless, pointless punishing suffering to force him to comply with a set of rules…that my yield more results, and if I’m not mistaken it’s been proven to yield more results in recent studies on child rearing and psychology, but I’ll have to confirm that…either way, it doesn’t take a genius, or an almighty being to realize that intelligent people don’t like to suffer needlessly, especially since they have no firm proof or confirmation that what they are suffering for is actually real.
It’s just a dictatorship.

This might be a touchy subject. I apologise if this offends or upsets you in any way and I respect that this may not be the most tactful thing to say. But, perhaps in a way, such disabilities are a gift from God? For they make it easier to follow Jesus?

Nah, you don’t have to apologise, you didn’t offend and it’s not that much of a touchy subject for me personally as for me as a human being. I do disagree that it’s a gift from god….I’m never ever going to tell my son that god made him that way, or that it was a gift….what kind of a sick man gives a disability as a gift?

At the same token, I hope I didn’t offend you or come down too harsh on your post…Christianity is just so illogical and unreasonable and dictator-ish.

 

[PennitentMan]

Originally Posted by buffalo
Adam and Eve were created with preternatural gifts including freedom from suffering and illness as well as bodily immortality. Human bodily corruption is a result of the fall.

And how did lose the innocence? it was inherited through Adam and Eve’s mistake…their first mistake. If God made everything…but he didn’t deem the human race worthy enough to limit his punishments to the transgressors…Nope, he is a forceful, jealous and cold person, for sure…

 

[wxboss]

And how did lose the innocence? it was inherited through Adam and Eve’s mistake…their first mistake. If God made everything…but he didn’t deem the human race worthy enough to limit his punishments to the transgressors…Nope, he is a forceful, jealous and cold person, for sure…

There is no denying that we all suffer in this life (whether it be physically, mentally or both). To complain about it is just another way of absolving ourselves (in our own minds) from the actions we take in response to our problems.

Suffering, in all of its forms, is a mystery that none of us are capable of absolutely solving. But there is one other mystery that seems to emerge within it - which is that suffering is something we all share and because our greatest human compassions are piqued and compel us to search for an answer even if it is only through the consolation of a family member, friend or spouse. (Suffering brings us to a question that we feel must be answered).

The question is whether we would even look for an answer if we weren’t aware that we were sick in the first place.

Mark 2:17:

Jesus says,

*They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: *

 

[PennitentMan]

There is no denying that we all suffer in this life (whether it be physically, mentally or both). To complain about it is just another way of absolving ourselves (in our own minds) from the actions we take in response to our problems.

Oh make no mistake, I take responsibility for my actions and I take actions that will best benefit my family.
I don’t complain daily about my problems, but to dwell in the religious realm, learn how concupiscence was inherited, and turn a blind eye to the ways that it pass on to humanity is just wrong. It’s a dictatorship, man.

Suffering, in all of its forms, is a mystery that none of us are capable of absolutely solving. But there is one other mystery that seems to emerge within it - which is that suffering is something we all share and because our greatest human compassions are piqued and compel us to search for an answer even if it is only through the consolation of a family member, friend or spouse. (Suffering brings us to a question that we feel must be answered).

The question is whether we would even look for an answer if we weren’t aware that we were sick in the first place.

Mark 2:17:

Jesus says,

*They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: *

The system is flawed. I wonder why people can’t see it…To subscribe to Christianity is to believe that an all loving creator is purposely causing unspeakable horrors to occur to his people, and all of humanity (that he created) all the time, just so they can come to know him. But he loves them.

There are better means….I’m not even a deity and I know that there can be better ways to accomplish this than to have your creations suffer perpetually. Silly tomfoolery!

 

[wxboss]

The system is flawed. I wonder why people can’t see it…To subscribe to Christianity is to believe that an all loving creator is purposely causing unspeakable horrors to occur to his people, and all of humanity (that he created) all the time, just so they can come to know him. But he loves them.

There are better means….I’m not even a deity and I know that there can be better ways to accomplish this than to have your creations suffer perpetually. Silly tomfoolery!

I have no idea what you are going through right now, and I won’t attempt to diminish it by trying to trivialize what I have no knowledge of (my thoughts and prayers are with you).

The system may be flawed as far as we’re able to perceive the system, but it is the system that we are subject to and have to live with each day. As far as I know, no one else has invented a system better than this one even though many have longed for one.

I won’t repeat verbatim what I mentioned earlier, but suffering itself points to a problem - that something isn’t what it should be.

Tomfoolery is pointing to an issue, calling it foolish, then walking away as if something had been accomplished. Don’t allow your anger to strangle that which you know to be true and good. But even if you do walk away, you will always be welcomed when you walk back.

 

[PennitentMan]

I have no idea what you are going through right now, and I won’t attempt to diminish it by trying to trivialize what I have no knowledge of (my thoughts and prayers are with you).

Thanks, but I’m not going through anything right now, actually My life is great, I’m having fun and enjoying life’s experiences on a level I never knew before.

The system may be flawed as far as we’re able to perceive the system, but it is the system that we are subject to and have to live with each day. As far as I know, no one else has invented a system better than this one even though many have longed for one.

that’s the point I’m getting at here, albeit slowly…that the system is flowed….yet it was (allegedly) made by someone who is perfect and almighty. It doesn’t add up now does it?

Does this kind of reflections not make you guys stop and wonder about the legitimacy of it all? It’s not what I based my de-conversion on, but it does give one pause when thinking if these things are real…there’s a real disconnect between what we believe about god and the way that he operates.
Hence the agnosticism…honestly seeing how the world works, exploring nature and the cosmos and learning more and more each day, I’m leaning more and more to atheism rather than agnosticism. If I have to believe in something, all evidence points to me believing that there is no god.

I won’t repeat verbatim what I mentioned earlier, but suffering itself points to a problem - that something isn’t what it should be.

Yeah, and we should fix it when that flag goes up, right? But then sometimes church teachings prevent us from taking the steps necessary to correct it and causes more troubles.

Tomfoolery is pointing to an issue, calling it foolish, then walking away as if something had been accomplished. Don’t allow your anger to strangle that which you know to be true and good. But even if you do walk away, you will always be welcomed when you walk back.

Oh it wasn’t as blaze as all that…it took me pretty much a year of studying questioning, praying and seeking before I stepped away…and, ironically, all the actions I performed during that year, was in an attempt to bring me closer to god…and in that process of seeking him, I realized that he wasn’t there.

When I look back from this vantage point at certain teachings and events, that’s when I start saying “Tomfoolery”. So, I’ve been walking away for a while now, and my stride is quickening.

 

[tonyrey]

that’s the point I’m getting at here, albeit slowly…that the system is flowed….yet it was (allegedly) made by someone who is perfect and almighty. It doesn’t add up now does it?

The misuse of free will does not explain physical evil like disease and deformities. They have physical causes like viruses and genetic mutations which existed on this planet millions of years before human beings appeared.

Does this kind of reflection not make you guys stop and wonder about the legitimacy of it all? It’s not what I based my de-conversion on, but it does give one pause when thinking if these things are real…there’s a real disconnect between what we believe about god and the way that he operates.

Most people are extremists: they attribute everything either to Design or Chance. Yet in a vastly complex system like the physical universe harmful coincidences are bound to occur. Sooner or later a person or an animal is bound to be crushed by a falling rock, malformed by a genetic mutation or infected by a microbe. Within the framework of Design there is an element of chance which leads to harmful consequences for the unfortunate minority.

Hence the agnosticism…honestly seeing how the world works, exploring nature and the cosmos and learning more and more each day, I’m leaning more and more to atheism rather than agnosticism. If I have to believe in something, all evidence points to me believing that there is no god.

The alternative is to create a universe with far less richness, variety, beauty, freedom and joy. We cannot have everything for nothing. There is a price to pay for every gift we possess. Some have to pay more than others but how could there be absolute equality for everyone? It is a mistake to judge God solely by what happens in this life. Jesus chose to suffer to show us we are more than compensated when we die for what we have had to endure on earth.

 

[JanetF]

Tonyrey said:

"It is a mistake to judge God solely by what happens in this life. Jesus chose to suffer to show us we are more than compensated when we die for what we have had to endure on earth. "

That’s the answer in a nutshell.

 

[PennitentMan]

Tonyrey said:

“It is a mistake to judge God solely by what happens in this life. Jesus chose to suffer to show us we are more than compensated when we die for what we have had to endure on earth.”

That’s the answer in a nutshell.

No it’s not…it’s an unreasonable attempt at justification for the errors in your theology. Rather than seeing it for the errors that it contains, the focus is shifted to ignore it.

The whole theology falls down, and without proof to back it up, it’s just a house of cards. Shifting the focus doesn’t take away the errors.

An all-powerful, perfect creator shouldn’t allow a first offense punishment to count for the whole human race, and then later has to send Jesus to fix the mistake…the theology is faulty, there is no all powerful, perfect creator in this version of creation.

Life is fine the way it is. It makes sense…injecting a deity into it that acts the way he does complicates and clouds things that otherwise already makes rational sense.

 

[xyneshia]

My daughter has developmental dyspraxia. She is weak, hypersensitive, slow (physically compared to others her age) and has significant trouble remembering things. My father in law, who does not beleive in God, (RIGHT IN FRONT OF OUR DAUGHTER) asks my husband “if God exists why are there people like you daughter in the world?” ouch. My daughter is a peace-maker. She is beautiful. She loves God with all her heart and worships him and desires him. She is probably the most devout Catholic (or even christian) person I have ever known, I am not just saying that because I am her mom. She looked like she was gonna die. here is a person that lives her life for God and grandpa sees her as proof that He does not exist!!! She looked more sad than I have ever seen her in her entire life. When God made her he created one of the most lovely beautiful little souls of all time. Everything about her is proof of how much God loves her and that He is real and alive. Who knows why He allows disabilities. Does it matter? If you sit and think about it for awhile you can come up with a number of reasons that He may allow it. Who knows if those reasons are right or not since His ways are above ours, but hey you can try. or you can read the millions of answers by millions of others who have already answered this particular question. Believe me I have thought it myself. Each time I sat accross from a team of doctors who shared with me the bad news for each of my two children. In the end I do not think it really matters why. The state of the body and mind is nothing compared to the state of the soul. And by the way your question is offensive and rude, and probably already been answered a million times over by every generation since the start of time.

 

[mchale]

Sorry for jumping onto this thread so late… but well, here I am .

No it’s not…it’s an unreasonable attempt at justification for the errors in your theology. Rather than seeing it for the errors that it contains, the focus is shifted to ignore it.

How can there be errors in theology if God does not exist? The field of theology presupposes God’s existence. That being said, it is not an attempt to ignore the problem, rather it is a justifiable answer based on the fact that the question is in fact too big for us to answer adequately.

Lets take the whole total, awful sum of human suffering. I will grant perfectly well that if such suffering is mere punishment for original sin, then indeed it does seem like God is cruel and not loving.

However, we need to look at the larger picture here. What type of person would each of us be without the suffering we and others experience in life? For that matter would any of us exist without that suffering? Suffering serves not only as punishment for sin, but also to humble us… and to provide opportunities for us to love our neighbor. If there was no suffering in the world, there would be no need for love or charity. Indeed, I wonder if we could have developed the concepts?

Ultimately, my belief is that suffering is justified if it increases the number of people who ultimately accept God.

The whole theology falls down, and without proof to back it up, it’s just a house of cards. Shifting the focus doesn’t take away the errors.

How can proof exist in that which is based on faith? We can reason from first principles, but we can never prove or disprove God. Its not how it works.

An all-powerful, perfect creator shouldn’t allow a first offense punishment to count for the whole human race, and then later has to send Jesus to fix the mistake…the theology is faulty, there is no all powerful, perfect creator in this version of creation.

Has it ever occurred to you that story of Adam and Eve might in fact simplify the concept of Original Sin to make it easier for us to understand? Ultimately Adam and Eve sinned staining us all with Original Sin, but its not like we have done much better is it? We sin, constantly.

Also God did not have to send Jesus to fix the mistake. That is the beauty of Christianity, God didn’t have to fix the mistake, and if he wanted to, he could have willed the mistake away. Rather he became man to live with us, who have rejected him so often (and continue to reject him) and then used that very rejection as a perfect sacrifice to atone for our rejection of him.

Life is fine the way it is. It makes sense…injecting a deity into it that acts the way he does complicates and clouds things that otherwise already makes rational sense.

If you think the Universe makes sense with a materialist world view, then you haven’t been paying attention. There are questions at least as profound that appear unanswerable in a world without a God.

–
Bill

 

[PennitentMan]

How can there be errors in theology if God does not exist? The field of theology presupposes God’s existence.

Exactly my point, hence my agnosticism, and why I’m arguing the way I am….your conclusion is the logical conclusion, thank you for that! I’m glad someone sees it.

That being said, it is not an attempt to ignore the problem, rather it is a justifiable answer based on the fact that the question is in fact too big for us to answer adequately.

Ockham’s Razor comes to mind. Why inject God into an equation that doesn’t need it?

Lets take the whole total, awful sum of human suffering. I will grant perfectly well that if such suffering is mere punishment for original sin, then indeed it does seem like God is cruel and not loving.

However, we need to look at the larger picture here. What type of person would each of us be without the suffering we and others experience in life? For that matter would any of us exist without that suffering? Suffering serves not only as punishment for sin, but also to humble us… and to provide opportunities for us to love our neighbor. If there was no suffering in the world, there would be no need for love or charity. Indeed, I wonder if we could have developed the concepts?

for sure we would have, no doubt

Ultimately, my belief is that suffering is justified if it increases the number of people who ultimately accept God.

So, again, evil is being done for a good end….Isn’t that against Catholic teachings?

How can proof exist in that which is based on faith? We can reason from first principles, but we can never prove or disprove God. Its not how it works.

Exactly, I agree.

Has it ever occurred to you that story of Adam and Eve might in fact simplify the concept of Original Sin to make it easier for us to understand? Ultimately Adam and Eve sinned staining us all with Original Sin, but it’s not like we have done much better is it? We sin, constantly. If the story isn’t real then it’s even more difficult to swallow…humanity suffers because of imaginary people? And why does the whole world, humanity in its entirety suffer due to one couple’s first mistake?

Also God did not have to send Jesus to fix the mistake. That is the beauty of Christianity, God didn’t have to fix the mistake, and if he wanted to, he could have willed the mistake away. Rather he became man to live with us, who have rejected him so often (and continue to reject him) and then used that very rejection as a perfect sacrifice to atone for our rejection of him. and in the process turns his back on suffering of countless innocents when by a single act of his will it would have been different.

If you think the Universe makes sense with a materialist world view, then you haven’t been paying attention. There are questions at least as profound that appear unanswerable in a world without a God.

Bill

Yes, but we don’t then go ahead, make the leap of faith and ascribe them to an invisible almighty person…we simply concede that we do not know the answers yet, and continue to research and discover.

 

[PennitentMan]

My daughter has developmental dyspraxia. She is weak, hypersensitive, slow (physically compared to others her age) and has significant trouble remembering things. My father in law, who does not beleive in God, (RIGHT IN FRONT OF OUR DAUGHTER) asks my husband “if God exists why are there people like you daughter in the world?” ouch. My daughter is a peace-maker. She is beautiful. She loves God with all her heart and worships him and desires him. She is probably the most devout Catholic (or even christian) person I have ever known, I am not just saying that because I am her mom. She looked like she was gonna die. here is a person that lives her life for God and grandpa sees her as proof that He does not exist!!! She looked more sad than I have ever seen her in her entire life. When God made her he created one of the most lovely beautiful little souls of all time. Everything about her is proof of how much God loves her and that He is real and alive. Who knows why He allows disabilities. Does it matter? If you sit and think about it for awhile you can come up with a number of reasons that He may allow it. Who knows if those reasons are right or not since His ways are above ours, but hey you can try. or you can read the millions of answers by millions of others who have already answered this particular question. Believe me I have thought it myself. Each time I sat accross from a team of doctors who shared with me the bad news for each of my two children. In the end I do not think it really matters why. The state of the body and mind is nothing compared to the state of the soul.

I agree that what your father in law did was not right. Kids should never be made to feel that way. We love our “special one” very much…

And by the way your question is offensive and rude, and probably already been answered a million times over by every generation since the start of time.

For the record, it’s not my question or thread, I’m here to shed some light on the question though….showing that the answer doesn’t lie in an over-elaborate explanation of an unseen force.

 

[mchale]

Exactly my point, hence my agnosticism, and why I’m arguing the way I am….your conclusion is the logical conclusion, thank you for that! I’m glad someone sees it.

You miss my point. My point was that claiming a theological argument is invalid when you reject one of the core premises of Theology essentially is similar to argue against a mathematical argument because you disagree that 1+1=2.

Ockham’s Razor comes to mind. Why inject God into an equation that doesn’t need it?

Ockham’s Razor I think is a double edged sword here: If we use the idea as William of Ockham originally meant it, we need to recognize that before the Razor can apply the hypothesis in question must both explain the question equally. I think the question here is big enough that it can be argued that the answers are not equivalent… indeed, the question is not even equivalent. You are answering the initial question by denying the question exists.

for sure we would have, no doubt

(This is my statement regarding the fact that I expressed doubts that Love and Charity would exist in isolation of suffering).

Again, I am not sure we would have. Clearly if we take a purely materialistic explination for our existence, then love and charity can be seen as mechanisms that confer survival advantage to the species. But the survival advantage assumes that suffering exists (at least in so far as we get killed against our will by other creatures).

So, again, evil is being done for a good end….Isn’t that against Catholic teachings?

You are mixing up two different concepts; moral evil and physical evil. Moral evil can never be justified by any good that happens to come out of it. Physical evil, is not necessarily evil at all; we perceive it as evil because it has undesirable consequences upon us. That does not make it a moral evil however. Now, moral evil frequently results in physical evil, but it is not the suffering that can’t be justified, only the moral evil.

To put it in another perspective. If a parent goes for a couple of days without sleep to comfort and care for a sick child, then the suffering they endure is not the result of moral evil and there actions are praiseworthy. If however, a person is kept awake for several days in order to gain information from them, it is torture…

Exactly, I agree.

Yes, but we don’t then go ahead, make the leap of faith and ascribe them to an invisible almighty person…we simply concede that we do not know the answers yet, and continue to research and discover.

A couple of thoughts here. The first is that you ignore the fact that some questions might fundamentally be unanswerable by materialist means (for example, why is there something rather than nothing?). The second is that materialist views of the Universe tend to ignore the testimony of those who have had experiences that transcend the material. If someone sees a meteor no one doubts them; if someone claims to have seen God, everyone doubts him.

–
Bill

 

[xyneshia]

I agree that what your father in law did was not right. Kids should never be made to feel that way. We love our “special one” very much…

For the record, it’s not my question or thread, I’m here to shed some light on the question though….showing that the answer doesn’t lie in an over-elaborate explanation of an unseen force.

I never said this is your thread or that you asked the question. I replying directly to the OP.

 

[PennitentMan]

I never said this is your thread or that you asked the question. I replying directly to the OP.

Ah, sorry, my appologies

 

[tobinatorstark]

why he wants to suffer his people

get a greater good out of it.

 

[xyneshia]

Ah, sorry, my appologies

No problem!