Why God allows the evil of the HHS mandate

[carolynpetty]

With all the Catholic lawyers in the church you’d think they could come up with a compelling argument against following this ruling.

i personally think that the schools and hospitals should be forced to follow the law whether they agree with it or not but i also believe that if the churches can come up with good reasons why they should not they should be heard, but they shouldn’t have waited this long to attack the issue, they should have been prepared long time ago for this one, it’s not like it was a big secret or anything.

Eventually, this thing will reach SCOTUS and with the current justices it will probably be overturned unless the conservative justices die first, alledgedly you’ve got Scalia and Roberts who profess to be practicing catholics, they would probably side with the church on this one.

 

[iloveangels]

Yes, I can’t disagree with this, even though it’s a way of saying that “persecution is good for you.”

The Church has made a lot of mistakes, and not just the Catholic Church, but Protestants as well. The Protestants began caving in to the secular culture even before Catholics. Witness their abandonment of their 400 year old traditional teaching against contraception.

The protestant situation is very mixed. Some caved and some have not.

 

[iloveangels]

With all the Catholic lawyers in the church you’d think they could come up with a compelling argument against following this ruling.

i personally think that the schools and hospitals should be forced to follow the law whether they agree with it or not but i also believe that if the churches can come up with good reasons why they should not they should be heard, but they shouldn’t have waited this long to attack the issue, they should have been prepared long time ago for this one, it’s not like it was a big secret or anything.

Eventually, this thing will reach SCOTUS and with the current justices it will probably be overturned unless the conservative justices die first, alledgedly you’ve got Scalia and Roberts who profess to be practicing catholics, they would probably side with the church on this one.

What they have to do now is just get this over with and do what they can with it, and get a start on preventing the next disaster, which is just ahead.

The best thing we can do now is get our house in order:

1. tell these universities & hospitals & such to act like Catholic institutions or stop claiming to be Catholic. Period.
2. start educating Catholics in the Church like mad, and insist that they participate, (bible & catechism reading, Catholic history)
3. knock off the politics and act like a proper religion.

And then start pro-active work to minimize our potential as a target for the other interest groups and controversies heading our way.

Then we will get some respect and our say in public will be worth more. That’s the only way to gain enough status to have a say in the public square. Nobody takes us seriously now, and who can blame them?

 

[tmcgarvey]

There will either be a judicial outcome (Supreme Court) or the enforcement arm is the IRS. What will EWTN, Catholic universities, other schools, etc do when they are told to insure or pay a fine. Will they pay the fine, close, or not pay the fine. If they don’t pay the fine, will they be arrested. If it were me I would choose the later, prison!! This may force the rest of the country who are in denial (including Biden) to realize the evil they have perpetrated.

 

[iloveangels]

There will either be a judicial outcome (Supreme Court) or the enforcement arm is the IRS. What will EWTN, Catholic universities, other schools, etc do when they are told to insure or pay a fine. Will they pay the fine, close, or not pay the fine. If they don’t pay the fine, will they be arrested. If it were me I would choose the later, prison!! This may force the rest of the country who are in denial (including Biden) to realize the evil they have perpetrated.

This isn’t going to work that way. If this doesn’t get settled in court before August, they’re going to take whatever fines are triggered out of withholding and they will pay it in addition to income tax. Period. I do not expect bishops to be going to jail over this. At. All. Catholics would do wise to take care that they do not trigger the maximum fine which is $100 per day per employee because the bill for even a small institution at that rate will be millions of dollars.

We’ve talked about this a lot in the posts leading up to this. There are really several classes of people that will be affected.

1. the big public universities & hospitals, many of whom are already offering these services in their insurance plans. Many of these are operated by lay boards. They do NOT belong to the Catholic Church, but call themselves Catholic because of history. Some of them, maybe a great many of them, will cave in to Obamacare. Whether the ones who offer birth control & abortion routinely to their employees, students and clients will be called to admit this and dissociate from the Church no one knows. If they do not, it will be an even greater scandal than it already is.
2. small institutions run by religious orders or lay boards who are obedient to Church teaching and do not offer these things in their insurance policies and have not been doing so. The Catholic Church does NOT own these either. Many of these have sued the federal government. They stand to lose a lot and I"m not sure what they will do if they lose their suits. EWTN is one of these, for example.
3. diocesan institutions. The Catholic Church does own these. Some of these will be able to get an exemption, some will not depending on who they employ and who they serve. Expect that some of them will be shut down, some will be pared back to part-timers and volunteers. Actual Catholic parishes, the Church part, will be able to get an exemption, as long as they employ primarily Catholics, serve primarily Catholics, have religious inculcation as their purpose, and have been non-profit all along. Parish programs will be pared back so that parishes are within this definition if they aren’t now.
4. small private businesses whose owners are Catholic. The Catholic Church does NOT own these either. Most of them will not be able to get an exemption. Some of them have sued the government. These are companies like Hobby Lobby. Maybe they’ll win and maybe not. I’m not sure what they’ll do it they lose.

 

[iloveangels]

So, when members of the USCCB get up and say that they “will not comply,” I have no idea what they’re talking about and I won’t until they give more information about exactly what it is that they’re talking about. There’s a lot going on here, and the Catholic Church doesn’t really own more than half of this stuff that’s going to be affected.

Correction. I believe that some of the small business owners and institutions who are objecting are also not Catholic. In fact, I believe that Hobby Lobby is a Christian, but not Catholic, business.

 

[tmcgarvey]

Perhaps many large institution will just go along, but EWTN and others are faced with either giving the insurance coverage, paying the fine, going out of business, or going to jail if they fail to pay (in their income tax or whatever). I don’t understand why you don’t see some deciding on jail instead of paying. Could happen, and it may be their choice. And good for them if they decide to do so!!! Of course, Obama and his cronies would love to close down EWTN, and they would love to close down Catholic charities, so only charity left is the government.

 

[iloveangels]

Perhaps many large institution will just go along, but EWTN and others are faced with either giving the insurance coverage, paying the fine, going out of business, or going to jail if they fail to pay (in their income tax or whatever). I don’t understand why you don’t see some deciding on jail instead of paying. Could happen, and it may be their choice. And good for them if they decide to do so!!! Of course, Obama and his cronies would love to close down EWTN, and they would love to close down Catholic charities, so only charity left is the government.

It’s a matter of how the law is written tmcgarvey. It’s being collected through the IRS for a reason: so that it can be collected with income taxes and business taxes which have to paid to stay in business.

Your own objection is interesting. Do you want to see people go to jail?

 

[tmcgarvey]

That is a strange reply. Do I want to see people go to jail?? No, but beyond Scotus protection, closing down shop, paying the fine, or covering the objectionable items, what choice is there?

 

[benjohnson]

I believe that some of the small business owners and institutions who are objecting are also not Catholic. In fact, I believe that Hobby Lobby is a Christian, but not Catholic, business.

I’m objecting and I’m not even Catholic. My family went to the October 20th Stand Up For Religious Freedom rally, and for the next rally, I’m inviting my Lutheran, Catholic friends and even a staunch atheist(!) friend who supports you. My atheist friend is hopping-mad about this issue, and even posted about it and defended it on his Facebook page.

To answer the OP: If God is calling us to stand together even though we we don’t kneel together at the same alter, then so be it! Let us make good of this if we can.

 

[tmcgarvey]

Thanks! There are polls done every day. I wondering what the polls say…but of course it depends on the way it is phrased. It would go something like this…Do you agree with the Catholic church’s attack on woman’s health care rights?? Actually most people who don’t understand what is going on believe Biden and an accommodation was made. I know there are a few evangelical owned companies that have lost law suits and are appealing.

 

[iloveangels]

That is a strange reply. Do I want to see people go to jail?? No, but beyond Scotus protection, closing down shop, paying the fine, or covering the objectionable items, what choice is there?

It’s just that so many people have said that, and some of them with what sounds like some degree of anticipation. They want to see a big demonstration or something. Well see what happens. I’m not expecting that to happen.

 

[iloveangels]

A great many people don’t see what the Catholic Church’s objections to these insurance plans are, you have to realize. Some of these people are non-practicing cradle Catholics and ex-Catholics. The statistics on this are astonishing and most Catholics are denying them. tmcgarvey, you’re right on this.

The Church has to do what it has to do, and I have no problem with that, but some clarity certainly would help. I have no idea how this is going to turn out. It could turn out rather badly, if it’s not handled well.

Everybody seems to be hanging all their hopes on these lawsuits, probably because that’s about all there is left. We shall see.

 

[iloveangels]

That is a strange reply. Do I want to see people go to jail?? No, but beyond Scotus protection, closing down shop, paying the fine, or covering the objectionable items, what choice is there?

I certainly believe that going through the inventory of things that Catholics “think” is theirs and understanding whether they’re really “theirs” or not is a good idea. We’re in a period of contraction in the US. And whether anyone wants to dispute that or not really doesn’t matter because it won’t stop what’s happening. These fines are unjust, yes, but that doesn’t change the fact that this contraction is something we’re going to have to deal with in some way, whether we like it or not. If it wasn’t this, it’d be something else, and yes, I"m sure of that.

If you look at my previous post, you’ll see that there are a lot of different things involved with all varying degrees of relationship to the Catholic Church.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10125873&postcount=25

 

[livingwordunity]

A great many people don’t see what the Catholic Church’s objections to these insurance plans are, you have to realize. Some of these people are non-practicing cradle Catholics and ex-Catholics. The statistics on this are astonishing and most Catholics are denying them. tmcgarvey, you’re right on this.

The Church has to do what it has to do, and I have no problem with that, but some clarity certainly would help. I have no idea how this is going to turn out. It could turn out rather badly, if it’s not handled well.

Everybody seems to be hanging all their hopes on these lawsuits, probably because that’s about all there is left. We shall see.

I don’t have any confidence in the Supreme Court. I see it as being stacked in favor of Obama. And it seems like Obama always gets his way.

 

[iloveangels]

I don’t have any confidence in the Supreme Court. I see it as being stacked in favor of Obama. And it seems like Obama always gets his way.

The population has changed, and with it the times. Catholics refused to have children, and Catholics lusted with all their hearts to “go mainstream,” and this is the payoff. There are practical prices to be paid for these things. People said they wanted it, and now they have it.

 

[livingwordunity]

The population has changed, and with it the times. Catholics refused to have children, and Catholics lusted with all their hearts to “go mainstream,” and this is the payoff. There are practical prices to be paid for these things. People said they wanted it, and now they have it.

Maybe the Church should do what it takes to qualify for the exemption. Kick out all the Protestants and other non-Catholics from all our schools, hospitals, orphanages, etc. and make everyone sign a statement of faith (that would also weed out the cafeteria Catholics). But let everyone know that it’s because of Obama’s law. But I wonder if it’s a damned if we do and damned if we don’t situation where we would then be charged with discrimination for following the law and doing what it says we have to do to qualify for the exemption.

 

[iloveangels]

Maybe the Church should do what it takes to qualify for the exemption. Kick out all the Protestants and other non-Catholics from all our schools, hospitals, orphanages, etc, but let everyone know that it’s because of Obama’s law. But I wonder if it’s a damned if we do and damned if we don’t situation where we would then be charged with discrimination for following the law and doing what it says we have to do to qualify for the exemption.

We’re going to be blamed, yes, but that’s exactly what we should do anyway. We are a religion, not a government or a social services agency. We pre-date the American government and the American culture and all of its customary ways of doing things by 1800 years. We can deal with this. It is completely possible to perform Christian charity without taking government money or without infringing on these things in an institutional way.

This could be the end of something, yes, but it could also be the beginning of something new and more fruitful. We may just get pruned. How old is that in Christianity? Old.

 

[livingwordunity]

We’re going to be blamed, yes, but that’s exactly what we should do anyway. We are a religion, not a government or a social services agency. It is completely possible to perform Christian charity without taking government money or without infringing on these things in an institutional way.

But we will still go out of business because of fines unless we kick out all non-Catholics.

 

[iloveangels]

But we will still go out of business because of fines unless we kick out all non-Catholics.

Yeah, a lot of people can’t get past that sentence.

And Catholics hate change. All change.

It’s a human habit to transfer feelings of attachment from God to the institutions and practices designed to give him honor. And Catholics are no strangers to that habit.