Why God allows the evil of the HHS mandate

  • Thread starter Thread starter livingwordunity
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Rence said:
It’s hard to take someone seriously who makes false claims that ABC is not healthcare because it is, and that’s the way it is. The fact is, it’s something the Catholic Church forbids. That fact doesn’t exclude it from being a component of healthcare.
Click to expand...
Birth control is not healthcare. In the majority of cases birth control is used to suppress the natural fertility of a woman. Whatever happened to “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”? 🤷
 
Rence said:
It would be a religous issue if the hospital in question would only hire and serve Catholics. When you serve the public and utilize all kinds of people as employees, it’s different. You can’t claim to be a solely religious entity if you employ everyone and serve everyone. A hospital is not a Church.
Click to expand...
If I were an employee and I was determined to have birth control coverage counted as part of my healthcare benefits than I am completely free to not apply to any employer that does not offer artificial birth control coverage as part of their healthcare offerings. It’s not that these employees are there against their will.

Likewise if I were potential patient who would like to get birth control, I am perfectly free to go to another hospital that offered birth control. A hospital is not a church but it does and should have the right to align its values to that of the Church.
 
iloveangels said:
Rence, we’re not talking about whether you take full advantage of the insurance plan that you have or not. What’s of interest here is what was in the insurance plan you described, given where you said you worked.
Click to expand...
Of course it’s important. The whole reason people have their panties in a wad over this mandate is because they know people will choose to take advantage of the benefit. If they thought people wouldn’t take advantage of the benefit, they wouldn’t care if it was made available. :rolleyes:
 
Sarcelle said:
Birth control is not healthcare. In the majority of cases birth control is used to suppress the natural fertility of a woman. Whatever happened to “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”? 🤷
Click to expand...
Birth control is a huge component of women’s health according to those who administer healthcare, and they are the ones who get to decide what is healthcare and what is not healthcare, not indivuals or religious entities.
 
Sarcelle said:
If I were an employee and I was determined to have birth control coverage counted as part of my healthcare benefits than I am completely free to not apply to any employer that does not offer artificial birth control coverage as part of their healthcare offerings. It’s not that these employees are there against their will.

Likewise if I were potential patient who would like to get birth control, I am perfectly free to go to another hospital that offered birth control. A hospital is not a church but it does and should have the right to align its values to that of the Church.
Click to expand...
Hey, I agree. But we’re not talking about getting a job here or there, we’re talking about the implementation of a government mandate and complaince to it. I couldn’t care less if it was a covered benefit or not. ABCs are as available as Skittles. Plan B is over the counter, you just have to ask for it. Most places carry them. However, if it’s a government mandate ‘for all’ then my opinion is that ‘all’ should be made to participate. Living in a pluralistic society comes with it’s own set of rules. Picking and choosing which ones one will comply with and which ones they won’t just leads to disorder. The government is trying to say that employers of certain religious affliation (Catholic or otherwise) should not have the power to carve up their employees’ healthcare plan, and I am in agreement.

I also think that those who refuse to be in compliance with this mandate should have to disclose it when they hire people, and when they serve the public as well. That way, those who support them will be aware of their decision, as well as those who don’t support their decision. After all, if one is willing to apply for, and fight for, a waiver to get around government mandates, then they should be just as willing to disclose it readily to potential employees and consumers.
 
Rence said:
Birth control is a huge component of women’s health according to those who administer healthcare, and they are the ones who get to decide what is healthcare and what is not healthcare, not indivuals or religious entities.
Click to expand...
Then we have to agree to disagree. Individuals and religious entities have every right to define what is healthcare. I think I will go further and declare that defining birth control as a huge component of women’s healthcare is a perversion, even a degradation of a woman’s body. A woman’s fertility is not and never was a disease to be “cured” for “fixed”.
 
Rence said:
Hey, I agree. But we’re not talking about getting a job here or there, we’re talking about the implementation of a government mandate and complaince to it. I couldn’t care less if it was a covered benefit or not. ABCs are as available as Skittles. Plan B is over the counter, you just have to ask for it. Most places carry them. However, if it’s a government mandate ‘for all’ then my opinion is that ‘all’ should be made to participate. Living in a pluralistic society comes with it’s own set of rules. Picking and choosing which ones one will comply with and which ones they won’t just leads to disorder. The government is trying to say that employers of certain religious affliation (Catholic or otherwise) should not have the power to carve up their employees’ healthcare plan, and I am in agreement.

I also think that those who refuse to be in compliance with this mandate should have to disclose it when they hire people, and when they serve the public as well. That way, those who support them will be aware of their decision, as well as those who don’t support their decision. After all, if one is willing to apply for, and fight for, a waiver to get around government mandates, then they should be just as willing to disclose it readily to potential employees and consumers.
Click to expand...
You mention living in a pluralistic society and then mention in the same post forcing everyone to participate in a government mandate which to a fair number of people and businesses are fundamentally unjust. What about respecting these people’s values?
 
iloveangels said:
Rence, we’re not talking about whether you take full advantage of the insurance plan that you have or not. What’s of interest here is what was in the insurance plan you described, given where you said you worked.
Click to expand...
While it would seem ironic that a person working in public safety would have an employee benefit of “a hit man,” the real issue is the government requiring the employer to pay for a hit man when the employer considers it immoral.
I can see how hard it can be to find there are people who accept murder, and even more shocking to find they work in public safety. The sad part for me is when they hide behind the law, saying,”oh well, it is the law therefore it is moral and just; we should all get in line now.”
I’ve met “Catholics” who disagree with the Church on abortion, birth control, same-sex “marriage,” divorce, and most use the legal system to support their beliefs, as if the government is the source of morality. When the rationalizing begins all you can do is walk away. They are “Catholics’ without principles and there isn’t much we can do about them. Remember they are not the Catholic Church, they are protestants, but many are faithful Catholics in every other way.
 
Sarcelle said:
Then we have to agree to disagree. Individuals and religious entities have every right to define what is healthcare. I think I will go further and declare that defining birth control as a huge component of women’s healthcare is a perversion, even a degradation of a woman’s body. A woman’s fertility is not and never was a disease to be “cured” for “fixed”.
Click to expand...
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. A whole body of individuals who actually sets the standard of healthcare disagrees with you. While individuals and religious entities think they can define what is healthcare, it doesn’t leave their realm or affect the body of individuals who actually set the standard of healthcare.
 
Sarcelle said:
You mention living in a pluralistic society and then mention in the same post forcing everyone to participate in a government mandate which to a fair number of people and businesses are fundamentally unjust. What about respecting these people’s values?
Click to expand...
Yes, we live in a pluralistic society and mandates made across the board for everyone to follow are just that: mandates to serve and protect the interests of those living in a pluralistic society, not just one demographic. If a fair number of people wouldn’t base their freedom on what others choose to do, they would be a lot happier and enjoy their own freedom to practice their own religion. A fair number of people living outside the USA can’t even own their own choice in religion or practice it in public. Sorry, but those living in the USA can’t claim that kind of religious oppression.
 
We have got to get out of the public medicine business, which means closing or divesting ourselves of hospitals and clinics. The HHS mandate may well be a huge blessing in disguise.

These things have been mishandled too long and we now have a situation where we insist that the general public pays attention to Catholic moral theology, but we can’t even guarantee that the majority our own members do. In point of fact, they do not. This is not only unacceptable, it’s unstable and we cannot maintain such a situation. We must evangelize our own before we can evangelize anyone else. You cannot give what you do not have.

There was a lot to be learned here. This was a blatant demonstration of what’s really going on in a lot of ways. Very clear. The bishops have big teaching and leading job ahead of them. I only hope they can drop the stupid politics and let this stuff go where it’s going anyway, and realize what their real task is, moving forward.
 
“It is time that the contraceptive imperative got branded as the grave menace to any civilized and moral society that it manifestly is.”
Source: crisismagazine.com/2012/the-contraceptive-imperative

The article linked above, while mentioning the HHS mandate, is not solely about that. It is about how contraception went from being a practice universally condemned by all Christians to an imperative forced upon us by government.
 
JimG said:
“It is time that the contraceptive imperative got branded as the grave menace to any civilized and moral society that it manifestly is.”
Source: crisismagazine.com/2012/the-contraceptive-imperative

The article linked above, while mentioning the HHS mandate, is not solely about that. It is about how contraception went from being a practice universally condemned by all Christians to an imperative forced upon us by government.
Click to expand...
There’s an essential step to that process between the two ends you have there. It’s when many Catholics decided to forgo Church teaching, even though official Church teaching on these matters cannot change. And then decided to admonish the behavior in the general culture without changing Catholic behavior. Many Catholics behave in an identical fashion to non-Catholics on key metrics of these moral behaviors. This is well-known in the culture where it is often talked about, even flaunted. There are consequences to that. You’re seeing those consequences now.

The problem isn’t that we have moral laws. We need them and we have them. They’re not going away. Rather, the problem is that if you make a lot of noise in the culture about how they’re not being followed, then you had better be following them yourselves or you’re going to look like a major hypocrite and no one is going to believe you. This is where we are.

Add to this the political force and money and all the other factors of the country right now, and hey, we’re a scapegoat, made to order. The stuff we’ve been doing would have ended badly in any case because of its very nature, but we were used too, for political gain. We walked right into it and didn’t even see it coming. :rolleyes:
 
Catholic1954 said:
God does not allow this this evil; he allows US to CHOOSE it. More than 50% of Catholics out there voted this administration into power, not God. When our bishops decide to give up pushing social justice on us and return to preaching the gospel the Church will be stronger, the confusion of Catholics will clear up, we can get back on track and bring the rest of the country with us.
Click to expand...
The underlined section I agree with entirely. The bolded section I couldn’t disagree with more. Social justice is just as much a part of the Gospel as anything else is. The HHS mandate doesn’t mean it’s not important.
 
acarlson said:
The underlined section I agree with entirely. The bolded section I couldn’t disagree with more. Social justice is just as much a part of the Gospel as anything else is. The HHS mandate doesn’t mean it’s not important.
Click to expand...
Then you have a bunch of contradictions there, acarlson. How do you propose you accomplish “social justice” without choosing to comply with the HHS mandate?

Keep in mind that:
a) 75% of the country isn’t Catholic and you can’t control them. At. All. Can they write this kind of stuff and enforce it? Yup, you always have to take that into consideration.
b) 50% of Catholics like it that way because they behave just like that 75% in nearly every regard, including mass attendance.
c) You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Meaning, just because you want some fond but unrealistic wish of your own to be true, that doesn’t make it so.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top