Why GOD dosn't put a sign in the sky for Him!

[nightotter]

I have to say I only skimmed through some of the responses, so I will speak to what I have read.

In my understand the idea of Faith is a bridge to something that cannot be proved along the lines of normal science or understanding. For instance, I have faith that the Chicago Cubs will win the World Series before I die. That’s the little faith. The big Faith, is the Faith in God or a Creator of some sort. But both of them are faith. This is the base definition of faith, IMHO.

The idea that evidence of God is all around us is faith, not proof. Your faith may tell you it is proof, but it isn’t verifiable. For instance, someone said. God is in the stars, in the trees, or words to that effect. Those of us who have debated this issue have heard this many times. But an atheist could easily replace God with Nature thusly: Nature is in the stars, in the trees, etc.

The idea that some choose to see God and others willfully turn their back is an insult to intelligent people. This idea is predicated on the assumption that every man and woman has the same ability to reason or seek God. What about the mental ill? What about people who are addicted or abused and can’t find God for the misery they are in? What about people who die long before they can develop their faith.

Even for people with healthy lives and reasonable intelligence, can’t they go astray in a way that God would understand? Can’t God look down on us and see that it is a world of confusion so that even a “normal” person might choose wrong?

This idea of “you had your chance” but you denied God smacks suspiciously of man disciplining man.

This is not my attempt to say you have it all wrong. I made a promise to God three years ago that I would do my best to find Him. A day doesn’t go by that I am not immersed in some sort of struggle. Part of my oath to Him is to push, question, rebuke, but also feel the glory and to do good.

I don’t know why God doesn’t put a sign in the sky, in the manner that simple people can see and understand. I can’t explain the universe or the mind of God. I am humble before what I see in the corner of my eye.

Thank you for letting me participate.

O.

 

[ccmcmg]

I see signs all around me every day.

Blessed be those that have not seen, and still believed.

 

[fhansen]

Why GOD doesn’t put a sign in the sky showing His true path!, for example, instead of the moon each night we see, he would put starts in a cross order or simply the name of the religion understood by any human on earth.

I think that will end all the disputes between all religions on earth, and it will be a compelling reason to judge people on the judgment day.

Thoughts?

This is one reason we need to humbly treat all people of all religions with respect and love.

 

[cargills112]

This is probably because God doesn’t want us to believe in him only if he shows us that he’s present. He wants us to believe in him if we want to.

 

[RCCB]

Excellent observation , that indicates how effective it was, so why He doesn’t put a permanent one for all generations on this earth to led them to the right religion?

There was the Promise of a ‘sign’ the sign of Jonah, not that theology has ever successfully explained that allegory. And self evidently that ‘promise’ has yet to be delivered. So if those who claim to speak for Christ cannot deliver on his promise, the problem must be with theology and thus religion?

 

[smithec]

This is probably because God doesn’t want us to believe in him only if he shows us that he’s present. He wants us to believe in him if we want to.

I think that is worded poorly, and possibly incorrect. God doesn’t want us to believe in the idea of Him. He has shown himself, and He does to this day offer signs of Himself.

I am one of those people who struggle with this constantly, and many will simple not understand how people like us can possible not see God in everything around us. It is not that we don’t want to, in fact many of us are seeking Him out regularly, but we need to find him differently than some of you. You may call some of us “doubters”, and that is fine. I will gladly accept such a title that is often associated with one of the Lords 11 closest followers. Yes, like Thomas we doubt, but we don’t do it lightly or willfully. We seek the truth, and for us the truth is objective. That means it’s not a feeling or an idea, but it is something very real. Just because I cannot see God doesn’t mean He isn’t detectable in some real way in this world. (The word detectable if a poor choice but I can’t come up with anything better right now)

For me, I tend to come back to various Eucharistic Miracles, and the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima. Some of these are so well documented that it becomes objective evidence in the search for truth. So to the OP, I believe that God does put signs, sometimes in the sky, that point to His involvement in the world. However, they are not always the exact signs we want, sometimes they are better.

 

[Wowbagger]

I think some of you misunderstood me!

The sign in the sky to points to GOD’s religion/path NOT to point to the existence of GOD.

Almost all religions acknowledge that there is GOD, but all of them contradict each others in the way to GOD…

You keep explaining yourself, and I think doing it quite well, but this forum seems determined to misunderstand your question. Why are there no golden letters written in pure divine light written over the Vatican saying, “This is My Church and you should be part of it”? Why do the bread and wine not visibly become the Body and Blood during the Eucharist, instead of only invisibly? Why doesn’t Jesus pop into our world capitals from time to time and tell everyone, in a visible form, which scriptures are valid and which one aren’t?

It is a great mystery. I do not think that you will find an answer here, but only in prayer. Our best hint in Christian Scripture is Luke 16:27-31. I know far too little about the Qu’ran or the Hadiths to say if there are any hints there.

I suspect that the answer lies in a combination. We must consider that original sin made Earth a territory under the Devil’s influence and control, and God, out of respect for our free decision to follow the Devil, chooses to allow that influence to continue. Further sins, by various heretics and their followers, have further clouded the waters. We must consider that skepticism about God generally, and Christianity specifically, is often rooted in something other than sincere intellectual doubt. We must consider that giving a clear and unrelenting sign would perhaps in some way injure the sincerity of the love and service we are made to give to God, or otherwise reduce the praiseworthiness of our faith. We must consider that God’s mercy is great, and that He will not condemn any who sincerely seek the truth with all their heart and strength during their lives. We must consider that God’s decisions are often completely incomprehensible to us mere mortals, and there is some reason for His silence that we cannot begin to understand – the Book of Job is a profound meditation on this last point.

And, to be completely sincere in our own pursuit of the truth, we must consider that perhaps these are all just shoddy excuses for an obvious lack, and the atheists or the Deists are right after all – God either doesn’t exist or doesn’t care about us. Or we must consider that the syncretists are right – all religions are equally valid paths to God, so there’s no need for a clear sign of which religion is “right.” I happen to think both those possibilities are silly, but we must at least consider them if we are being intellectually honest with ourselves.

No matter what the answer, it is certainly one of the most difficult questions religious people in any faith must face.

 

[new_cath_2011]

I second what has already been said and only add that such a sign (if it were indeed such as to make belief in Christ impossible to deny) would destroy the virtue of Faith. Remember Matt 7:7 “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” All who seek the Truth will find it, but those who do not seek will not find. This gives us three groups of people. 1) Those who seek and have found (reasonable b/c they seek - happy b/c they have found the Truth) 2) Those who seek but have yet to find (reasonable b/c they seek - not yet happy, but assured of happiness b/c they will find) 3) Those who neither seek nor find (unreasonable b/c they do not seek - unhappy b/c they do not find the Truth) 4) Those who do not seek, but still find (no one is in this class). A massive undeniable sign for Christ in the sky would upset this balance, making even those who do not seek find (destroying the virtue of faith). God Bless and keep seeking!

Dear PietroPaolo, you gave a very interesting analysis, but I disagree. I found God without me having done any seeking. At least, I am pretty sure that I was not seeking, certainly not consciously, and I think not at all. God decided to convert me anyway, I don’t know why, I was not interested and not worthy. Maybe somebody had been praying for me.

This conversion via miracles which I could not deny knowing about, this sudden new belief in God, it did not destroy the virtue of faith, as you suggest. But oddly I was for some months a person who believed (KNEW!) because of the miracles, but did not have “faith.” For those few months I thought that rational knowledge was superior to faith (sin of pride.)

Only later, already a rather intense daily communicant Catholic and floating in love with God, did I see how beautiful and important and useful faith would be to have. I mean, without faith, it’s hard to have real solid trust in God’s Divine Mercy. Then I wanted faith In God also, not just knowledge of God. A few very humbling and miraculously life-saving months later, just recently, I got some faith too. It was like a second mini-wave of conversion. All through the Grace of God, absolutely NOT deserved.

 

[pambarnes1516]

I used to wonder also about this question. I went the “Creator within His Creation” route also and of course we can reason there’s a God but a triune knowable God? I wondered about it for so long and so extensively in fact that I do believe God finally took pity on me and gave me the answer: it’s because God is so Holy and we are next to nothing in comparison-in fact, mathematically speaking, the entire universe is nothing in comparison to God–and besides us having zero power or strength, we have evil in us. This means that in comparison to the infinite Holiness of God we are infinitely unholy and God won’t ever lie or exaggerate so He would be honest about Himself in showing Himself. God won’t show Himself other than in disguise (in the Eucharist or private revelations) because we would despair in the knowledge of our own misery–our own minuteness and unfortunately, unholiness. Even the most Holy Saints could only see God as through a vail. The invisibility of God is an unfathomable mercy that even the angels contemplate in wonder and awe. In other words, God only hid Himself after the fall in order to not kill us which He had all justification to do. When the soul leaves the body it will see God’s holiness and it will find immense joy in realizing God’s mercy knowing that had Christ not satisfied God’s justice, we would had to have been permanently separated from one so Holy. The Holy Spirit in the body and blood of Christ doesn’t make us ‘better’ (like act better), it makes us literally better–it makes us literally like Christ. And Christ is equal to
His Father in holiness. Because the Eucharist infuses in us Spirit of Christ and His Spirit is
‘of’ God, now we can equal God in Holiness and enter fully into His presence. In short,
when Christ shows up at the second coming in the fullness of His Glory (which is the
fullness of His holiness), He won’t have to ‘say’ anything. Individuals will ‘know’ their own
evil just by comparing themselves to Him; thus the reason He stooped so low to warn us: Christ knew we could not withstand His Holiness without being enveloped in the Holy Spirit; so let us seek Him out in faith and not look for proofs otherwise our souls may lack sanctity and be insuffisient to enter into the joy that has no end.

 

[Hamlet123]

Why GOD doesn’t put a sign in the sky showing His true path!, for example, instead of the moon each night we see, he would put starts in a cross order or simply the name of the religion understood by any human on earth.

I think that will end all the disputes between all religions on earth, and it will be a compelling reason to judge people on the judgment day.

Thoughts?

Well, I think (contrarily) that infact He has. Study a little physics or chemistry. Or better yet, get the DVD series “The Heavens Declare the Glory of God” by Fr. Robert Spitzer, SJ Ph.D
or go to the protestant Dr. Hugh Ross’ webb page Reasons to Believe.

I think the question should be: Why doesn’t God more effectively communicate His relation to us, His love. Now that is the issue! No doubt there is a First Force, God; but does He love me. My nature says yes; its intuited, but I have no experiential evidence.

 

[Hamlet123]

I second what has already been said and only add that such a sign (if it were indeed such as to make belief in Christ impossible to deny) would destroy the virtue of Faith. Remember Matt 7:7 “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” All who seek the Truth will find it, but those who do not seek will not find. This gives us three groups of people. 1) Those who seek and have found (reasonable b/c they seek - happy b/c they have found the Truth) 2) Those who seek but have yet to find (reasonable b/c they seek - not yet happy, but assured of happiness b/c they will find) 3) Those who neither seek nor find (unreasonable b/c they do not seek - unhappy b/c they do not find the Truth) 4) Those who do not seek, but still find (no one is in this class). A massive undeniable sign for Christ in the sky would upset this balance, making even those who do not seek find (destroying the virtue of faith). God Bless and keep seeking!

Kreeft would be proud of you:thumbsup:

 

[Hamlet123]

This means that in comparison to the infinite Holiness of God we are infinitely unholy and God won’t ever lie or exaggerate so He would be honest about Himself in showing Himself. God won’t show Himself other than in disguise (in the Eucharist or private revelations) because we would despair in the knowledge of our own misery–our own minuteness and unfortunately, unholiness.

We would despair because of our inability to accept the tremendous differential???

 

[Hamlet123]

You keep explaining yourself, and I think doing it quite well, but this forum seems determined to misunderstand your question. Why are there no golden letters written in pure divine light written over the Vatican saying, “This is My Church and you should be part of it”? Why do the bread and wine not visibly become the Body and Blood during the Eucharist, instead of only invisibly? Why doesn’t Jesus pop into our world capitals from time to time and tell everyone, in a visible form, which scriptures are valid and which one aren’t?

It is a great mystery. I do not think that you will find an answer here, but only in prayer. Our best hint in Christian Scripture is Luke 16:27-31. I know far too little about the Qu’ran or the Hadiths to say if there are any hints there.

I suspect that the answer lies in a combination. We must consider that original sin made Earth a territory under the Devil’s influence and control, and God, out of respect for our free decision to follow the Devil, chooses to allow that influence to continue. Further sins, by various heretics and their followers, have further clouded the waters. We must consider that skepticism about God generally, and Christianity specifically, is often rooted in something other than sincere intellectual doubt. We must consider that giving a clear and unrelenting sign would perhaps in some way injure the sincerity of the love and service we are made to give to God, or otherwise reduce the praiseworthiness of our faith. We must consider that God’s mercy is great, and that He will not condemn any who sincerely seek the truth with all their heart and strength during their lives. We must consider that God’s decisions are often completely incomprehensible to us mere mortals, and there is some reason for His silence that we cannot begin to understand – the Book of Job is a profound meditation on this last point.

And, to be completely sincere in our own pursuit of the truth, we must consider that perhaps these are all just shoddy excuses for an obvious lack, and the atheists or the Deists are right after all – God either doesn’t exist or doesn’t care about us. Or we must consider that the syncretists are right – all religions are equally valid paths to God, so there’s no need for a clear sign of which religion is “right.” I happen to think both those possibilities are silly, but we must at least consider them if we are being intellectually honest with ourselves.

No matter what the answer, it is certainly one of the most difficult questions religious people in any faith must face.

Excellent:thumbsup: Wowbanger; albeit, your name has a bit of a vulgar implication.

The best, but not satisfying, answer I read is the Catechism’s discussion on Faith.

 

[ngill09]

For the “God is obvious” crowd:

"That God has willed to hide Himself.—If there were only one religion, God would indeed be manifest. The same would be the case, if there were no martyrs but in our religion. 66
**God being thus hidden, every religion which does not affirm that God is hidden, is not true; **and every religion which does not give the reason of it, is not instructive. "
~Blaise Pascal - The Fundamentals of the Christian Religion

 

[faithsmind]

I don’t believe an obvious sign of a cross of stars in the sky would end disputes. I think it would only make things worse. A cross in the sky is still obscure. Why not take it one step further? Why not have the entire catechism beautifully enscripted ineach nation’s language against the sky? Would there be peace, then? I don’t believe so. The fullness of God and life is much greater and more beautiful than these simple or obvious manifestations. God made manna fall from the sky for years. Did this end disputes? Lol! Did it make the Isrealites good? There is too much to be explained. The order of the universe, the entire story of the bible, and the inscription of His law on each human heart is how God whispers His truths to each individual. This is enough.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Why GOD doesn’t put a sign in the sky showing His true path!, for example, instead of the moon each night we see, he would put starts in a cross order or simply the name of the religion understood by any human on earth.

I think that will end all the disputes between all religions on earth, and it will be a compelling reason to judge people on the judgment day.

Thoughts?

As Jesus told the Rich Man “(Some men) would not understand or repent even if someone were to rise from the dead!” (The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus)

 

[ngill09]

As Jesus told the Rich Man “(Some men) would not understand or repent even if someone were to rise from the dead!” (The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus)

Ah, but should the standards of “some men” make it so that many (who would convert if they knew that Christianity was true) are damned? In order for your complaint to be valid, no one would convert if someone were to rise from the dead and tell them that Christianity was true.

 

[St_Francis]

Ah, but should the standards of “some men” make it so that many (who would convert if they knew that Christianity was true) are damned? In order for your complaint to be valid, no one would convert if someone were to rise from the dead and tell them that Christianity was true.

God does know what He is doing, you know He sends each of us sufficient grace to be saved *if we so choose. *We have to cooperate with the grace He sends us.

 

[St_Francis]

See that was the point, if we had a sign, then non of those obstacles to overcome.

I looked through an amazing number of pictures of the Crucifixion looking for one which looked appropriate and was small enough to put here…

And it got me to thinking: here is Christ, Who died for each of us, for you, Sam, and for me…

And in His dying, He conquered death. The moment which seems to us to be His defeat is actually His victory over death, sin, and the entire world!

And in order to follow Him, we too must die. We must die to ourselves. We must become humble, peaceful. We must turn towards what is good and away from so much which makes our selfish selves feel good, like power and winning. We must let Him rule rather than ruling. It’s not easy… and this is why so many do not *want *to follow Him–they do not want to give up so much. They do not want to serve.

Oh, yes, there are signs everywhere! They are not hard to see if you know how to look, but what they are signs of is not necessarily what we want. We look for signs of power but God sends us signs of His love for us.

 

[RCCB]

For the “God is obvious” crowd:

"That God has willed to hide Himself.

I suspect that God has been trying to reveal himself for most for history. but He does so via his moral will and our species had been unable to accept obedience to that will and replaced it with the 'theological ’ construct that now exists as religion and tradition.

My best guess is that our species has already reached the limits of what is possible for the moral construct of culture and those limit are being shown to be dangerously unsustainable. And as the path of human development continues drifting to inexorably towards it’s own self made hell, when we are forced by circumstance to confront those limits, one last opportunity to fully comprehend divine will shall present itself. If we are honest enough to tell the difference between a true revelation and a theological counterfeit!