Why God should need a messenger?

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jmcrae said:
No. Death is simply the absence of life. Death is what Adam chose by default when he rejected the author of life.
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First God willed Adam into existence, then Adam sinned, then God punished him and all of mankind.

Existence came first. One that Adam had no say in the matter.
 
davidv said:
His soul was separated from His body because of the severe beating and crucifixion that He was subjected to.

Yes He died. But, He rose from the dead proving that He was God.
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So he was not omnipresent since you cannot kill something which is omnipresent.
 
Peter_Plato said:
Well, no actually. You or I cannot be “omnipresent and embedded into a body at the same time,” but that is because neither you nor I were omnipresent beings to begin with.

Whether an omnipresent being can be “omnipresent and embedded into a body” is an open question that only an omnipresent being can properly answer.

I would say that is beyond my pay grade, and beyond yours – unless you can demonstrate that you were once an omnipresent being now constrained within a body.

Is that the claim you wish to make?
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Actually you don’t need to be omnipresent at the first place to answer this question. You need to answer this simple question: how an omnipresent being could be killed?
 
Peter_Plato said:
Yes, but the problem here is that God forgiving us does not entail we are thereby made worthy of, or merit, eternal existence. Something has to change about us – about the kind of beings we are. If we are autonomous beings capable of determining what we are, then somehow we must choose to be the kind of being that merits eternal life. God cannot choose that for us, we must choose it for ourselves. God by his mercy, forgiveness and grace can make it possible for us to do so, but the choice remains ours.
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God forgiveness is infinite and we are finite beings. The problem is whether we choose Heaven over Hell after our death when there is no place for doubt. Of course everybody choose Heaven.
 
Bahman said:
So he was not omnipresent since you cannot kill something which is omnipresent.
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I’ve already answered this. Jesus in his human form was finite. He had to be so that he could sacrifice himself for us. Jesus as the Word, the second person of the Trinity, is still God, with all the attributes that entails. Stop harping on the same tune.
 
Bahman said:
God forgiveness is infinite and we are finite beings. The problem is whether we choose Heaven over Hell after our death when there is no place for doubt. Of course everybody choose Heaven.
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Do you suppose human beings know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong, true and false? Why don’t human beings (everybody) choose good, right and true over evil, wrong and false in this life as a matter of principle? I am sure everybody knows that good and evil exist; that true and false exist. These are not matters of uncertainty. So why doesn’t everybody choose to do the good, do the right and speak the truth before they die?

Heaven is not the place where everybody will merely get what they want to an absolute degree. Heaven will be the fullness or the absolute achievement of goodness, truth and love. It won’t be enjoyable for those who do NOT prefer goodness, truth and love - in fact, they won’t like it at all. It will be “hell” for them.
 
Peter_Plato said:
. It won’t be enjoyable for those who do NOT prefer goodness, truth and love - in fact, they won’t like it at all. It will be “hell” for them.
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You can choose goodness, truth and love without believing the God of Abraham is real.

I know you’ll disagree.
 
987mk said:
You can choose goodness, truth and love without believing the God of Abraham is real.
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That is not the problem. The question is determining what is goodness, truth and love. Without God there is no consistent answer.

I know you’ll disagree.
Agreement is overrated and irrelevant to determining what is true.
 
987mk said:
There is a natural explanation as to why people who are submerged under ice cold water for ridiculously long periods of time, who are pronounced dead and who are later revived.

Interesting that this “miracle” never occurs with warm water.
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Your citations did not provide a natural explanation as I already posted. So, the Dr disagrees with you and so do the articles that you posted…your articles state that medical intervention is required for recovery of survivors (bleakly at that) and they do not cite resuscitation after death…the article I posted the child was resuscitated without medical intervention, only after pronounced dead for 45 minutes when the mother prayed over the boy. We have been asked to continue this conversation through private message or a different post because it is a different topic, please be courteous to the request.
 
Bahman said:
So he was not omnipresent since you cannot kill something which is omnipresent.
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Yes, that is the point! God did not die, although the condition of what humans call dying happened…no heart beat or organ function, He was alive in the Spirit because it is not flesh that gives life it is of the Spirit of God from God the Father in Heaven that gives life. The flesh is merely a collection of molecules made out of elements regardless of being alive or not…the same elements that make dirt (from the Earth’s crust) and water. What we believe is that it is the Spirit of God that gives life not the flesh that is a temporary stage in our life.
 
987mk said:
My life is amazing.

Three beautiful and healthy children.

A job that pays well and one that I enjoy.

Good friends, neighbours and an extended family I see regularly.

However, if I didn’t exist, I wouldn’t know it now would I?
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If your life is so amazing then why have you spent so much time on this forum unless there was something that your soul is seeking? If my life were that amazing I would not be on this forum right now. I would probably never get on this forum unless one of my loved ones had a specific question for me to ask (because I do not know) and when I was given the answer I would accept it or ask more questions but not refute it as though I know (otherwise, if I already knew the answer then why would I ask the question). Personally if my soul was seeking something greater that was guiding me to want to know more about the Catholic faith in God I would still not be on this forum…I would pray, go to Church and read the Bible…because ultimately if you REALLY want to know, you need to ask God himself in prayer, because truly it will be Him that convinces your heart. If you would like direction in prayer, this is a great place to seek a starting point in asking the man himself, God. Humbly as you would a father ask God in the name of Jesus and pray the ‘Our Father’ as the Lord taught.
 
987mk said:
You can choose goodness, truth and love without believing the God of Abraham is real.

I know you’ll disagree.
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You can by God’s grace but it is not the same. I was agnostic for 26 years and never felt the love like I did until I became a Christian. I had never thought to pray so the things I suffered I endured all those years until I one day I began to ask God for help. Some things were immediate and others have not been answered yet, but I can clearly witness the difference.

And now I understand that if I did not come to believe then all that joy in the Spirit and time with my loved ones would be temporal. Now that I believe I know that I have eternal life in heaven through Jesus…I will have eternal life with my loved ones and I will always have the Spirit of goodness, truth and love so long as I believe (I will because Jesus says John 14:18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. & Psalm 16:10
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.) even after my body has been made in heaven. 2 Cor 5:1 ‘For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.’
 
987mk said:
You can choose goodness, truth and love without believing the God of Abraham is real.

I know you’ll disagree.
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Sure, you can choose some degree of goodness, truth and love, but will that be the complete truth, fullness of love and absolute goodness?

How would you know if you make yourself the final arbiter of all three?

At the same time, how would you know anything at all about goodness, truth or love without having some capacity to recognize them? Where does that capacity derive? Is it merely made up by you or do goodness, truth and love exist objectively? If objectively, then from what source? Fullness of truth, goodness and love – AKA, the Subsistent Act of Being Itself? the Actus Purus or Ipsum Esse Subsistens of Aquinas? I AM WHO AM? The God of Abraham?

Whether or not I believe the God of Abraham is real is less important than what it is I believe the God of Abraham to be.

There are, by the way, some very interesting connections between the place where Abraham was compelled to sacrifice his only begotten son, Isaac, and where Jesus the only begotten Son of the Father was, in fact, sacrificed. They are one and the same place – Mt. Moriah, the Site of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Were you aware of that?

Were you also aware that when Isaac asked his father Abraham about the sacrificial altar they had prepared, Abraham answered that God himself would provide the lamb? And yet, it was a ram – and NOT a lamb – that appeared in the thicket and which they sacrificed, leaving open to fulfillment Abraham’s wards that God himself would provide the lamb.

Did you also know that the lambs prepared for sacrifice at the Temple in Jerusalem at Passover were splayed on tiny crosses of wood, very like the manner in which Jesus, the lamb of God, was prepared for sacrifice?

Dismissible coincidences? Perhaps.

But how many of these dismissible coincidences add up to being no longer dismissible?

Is there a point at which they can no longer be dismissed?
 
987mk said:
First God willed Adam into existence, then Adam sinned, then God punished him and all of mankind.

Existence came first. One that Adam had no say in the matter.
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I’m confused why Adam needs a say in whether he is created or not.

It was his own choice to commit sin. He could have chosen to remain faithful.
 
tifischer said:
Your citations did not provide a natural explanation as I already posted. So, the Dr disagrees with you and so do the articles that you posted…your articles state that medical intervention is required for recovery of survivors (bleakly at that) and they do not cite resuscitation after death…the article I posted the child was resuscitated without medical intervention, only after pronounced dead for 45 minutes when the mother prayed over the boy. We have been asked to continue this conversation through private message or a different post because it is a different topic, please be courteous to the request.
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I posted the child was resuscitated without medical intervention, only after pronounced dead for 45 minutes when the mother prayed over the boy.

Post the link to the story then.
 
jmcrae said:
I’m confused why Adam needs a say in whether he is created or not.

It was his own choice to commit sin. He could have chosen to remain faithful.
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Adam gets a choice in everything, except for existence.

Without existence, there is no original sin.

Without existence, there wouldn’t be hundreds of millions of eternal souls suffering forever in hell.
 
987mk said:
Adam gets a choice in everything, except for existence.

Without existence, there is no original sin.

Without existence, there wouldn’t be hundreds of millions of eternal souls suffering forever in hell.
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Without existence there wouldn’t be billions of eternal souls rejoicing forever in heaven.

This is way off topic, please take your discussion to another thread.
 
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