Why has Mass attendance declined?

[JimR-OCDS]

Oh, I’d have to go with “dumbed-down liturgy” and the departure from traditional Mass.

I disagree.

Decline in Mass attendance has to do with a decline in faith.

Also, I believe that if we had never changed the Mass after Vatican II, Mass attendance would be worse than it is today.

Youny people aren’t going to embrace something they don’t understand.

Jim

 

[AlexV]

I’ll be sure to tell that, Jim, to the crowds next year who will return, as they do every year, for the traditionalist pilgrimage in France…attended by thousands of young people.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I disagree.

Decline in Mass attendance has to do with a decline in faith.

Also, I believe that if we had never changed the Mass after Vatican II, Mass attendance would be worse than it is today.

Youny people aren’t going to embrace something they don’t understand.

Jim

Have you not been reading the news, Jim? Young people are the ones who are attracted to the Traditional Latin Mass. They are heading there in droves, according to both secular and Catholic media reports. Surely you couldn’t have missed that.

 

[VAC]

Have you not been reading the news, Jim? Young people are the ones who are attracted to the Traditional Latin Mass. They are heading there in droves, according to both secular and Catholic media reports. Surely you couldn’t have missed that.

I missed it. Perhaps you could provide some links.

 

[SMHW]

I just finished reading an article that got me thinking.

Why do YOU think Mass attendance in the U.S. has declined?

…]

So what does everyone think the reasons are for falling Mass attendance?

Other than the broad reason that there is a lack of belief in the importance of attending Mass (of some rite), I don’t think there is any single reason why Mass attendance is down.

In most English speaking Western countries, Mass attendance was declining before the NO became the norm.

I’ve personally met people who attend Mass more regularly in their progressive parish than they did at their middle of the road parish. And I’ve likewise met people who have sought ought very traditional parishes. I can’t say that I’ve met a majority of either.

I do think there is a correlation between Catholic school attendance and adult practice of the Faith (including Mass attendance) but I don’t know that one is the cause of the other or if they have a common cause.

I do know a fair number of people who stopped attending Mass after a divorce and subsequent relationship with another person.

I’ve known a number of families who considered Mass attendance extremely important until their children made their First Communion and then the families just stopped going.

In general, a lot of people go to Mass because it is socially important to them to do so. If something removes that social impetus, Mass attention ceases.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I missed it. Perhaps you could provide some links.

Certainly. signonsandiego.com/news/world/20050817-1051-pope-germany-latin.html

latin-mass-society.org/lmspur.htm (scroll down the page to "Traditional youth movements) It’s what Alex V was talking about.

sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/05/26/international/i112514D11.DTL

stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/A6A2D911CEA68E85862572FA000FFC09?OpenDocument

stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com/2007/02/young-people-flock-to-old-mass.html

latin-mass-society.org/lmsmembership.pdf (read the article "Looking to the Future)

Fox news also has done several articles about young people being attracted to the TLM, but I think I have posted enough others.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Have you not been reading the news, Jim? Young people are the ones who are attracted to the Traditional Latin Mass. They are heading there in droves, according to both secular and Catholic media reports. Surely you couldn’t have missed that.

They’re a minority of the young Catholic population.

If they were the majority, we wouldn’t be talking about a decline in Mass, because the majority would know that missing Mass because its not in Latin, is still a mortal sin.

Jim

 

[palmas85]

Where can I find this book?

The book is Diary of an Inner City Priest is author is John P. McNamee and the book was published by Sheed and Ward in Kansas City. The book was first published in 1993 and I’m not sure if it is still in print. I checked and you can get a new copy on Amazon for about 16 dollars and used for about two bucks.

I reccomend it heartily. The author writes extensively and is fairly well known in religious/spirituality circles.

 

[palmas85]

I disagree.

Decline in Mass attendance has to do with a decline in faith.

Also, I believe that if we had never changed the Mass after Vatican II, Mass attendance would be worse than it is today.

Youny people aren’t going to embrace something they don’t understand.

Jim

Interesting. Why do you think it would be lower than it is today had we not had the “reforms” imposed upon us.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Interesting. Why do you think it would be lower than it is today had we not had the “reforms” imposed upon us.

Because Mass attendance began to decline before the Vatican II reforms were made and in particular the 60’s.

People aren’t going to attend Mass if they do not connect with it.

How many people attend a Spanish Mass,(or you name the language) if they don’t understand Spanish?

Granted, there are some young people who do, connect with the Latin Mass. But they’re not the norm, but the exception.

BTW, I attended Mass on Monday, at the National Shrine of Divine Mercy, in Stockbridge Mass. Parts of the Mass were said in Latin. It sounded nice, but it did not have the meaning it would have had, if it were in English. I enjoy listening to Josh Groben sing in Italian, but I don’t understand the words he’s singing. So it is with Latin at Mass. Also, most people at the Mass, didn’t respond, some got distracted looking for the place in the hymnal, where the Latin responses were listed.

However, I’ve digressed. Not having a traditional Latin Mass, has nothing to do with the decline in attendance.

People who have faith, will attend Mass regardless of what language its in.

Jim

 

[AlexV]

The people who looked bored out of their minds at the last Novus Ordo I attended, including the one fellow nodding off and the other reading the Sunday bulletin…yeah, they were really “connecting”.

The vernacular has no monopoly on making people “connect”.

 

[crenfro]

Been to Catholic schools all my life, and as I was bullied by Catholics, by the other students, by some of the nuns who taught me, by some of the priests, and by my parents, I wasn’t too keen on staying with the church as I got older, or going to Mass.

Ever seen the look on the face of a sensitive kid who’s been berated by a nun in front of the whole class for doing nothing other than being “different?” From out of the blue, while I was studying quietly in class, this nun told me, in front of the whole class, “why don’t you just go back into your little hole where you came from?”

And this is just ONE example.

Only from reading some G.K. Chesterton, C. S. Lewis, scriptures, and being in 12 step programs did I return.

I am so ashamed of how I was treated. I never could understand how other Catholics can so easily forget “who is your neighbor.”

I now go to Mass and try to be a decent Catholic because of what I’ve read and what I believe, certainly not though because of other’s examples. Plus I try to forgive. It’s hard.

 

[Dispector]

Because Mass attendance began to decline before the Vatican II reforms were made and in particular the 60’s.

This is true. My understanding is that Vatican II occurred to help counteract the declining Mass attendance. The declining Mass attendance during the 60s was due to the general rebellion against organizations generally symbolizing “old power.” The Catholic Church was just another symbol to rebel against. Also, the new liberal culture of the time often went against Church teachings.

However, I remember reading somewhere (I can find the source) that after Vatican II there was a steep decline in Vocations and virtual exodus from the Seminaries. Whether this was due to a change in the Seminary or Holy Order I cannot say, but it was a cause and effect situation.

People aren’t going to attend Mass if they do not connect with it.

This is true. I think this is due to a lack of understanding and poor catechism. People do not understand what they’re witnessing. Instead of seeing thousands of years of traditions and symbolism they just see an over-formalized religious gathering.

How many people attend a Spanish Mass,(or you name the language) if they don’t understand Spanish?

I would bet very few actually do. But, Spanish has not had the historic connection to Christianity as Latin has.

Granted, there are some young people who do, connect with the Latin Mass. But they’re not the norm, but the exception.

I would disagree here. A local church celebrates the Latin Mass and it has the highest (and growing) rate of attendance by young adults. And it is an observable difference. To my knowledge they are the only local church that has enough of a young adult attendance to have a young adult group.

BTW, I attended Mass on Monday, at the National Shrine of Divine Mercy, in Stockbridge Mass. Parts of the Mass were said in Latin. It sounded nice, but it did not have the meaning it would have had, if it were in English. I enjoy listening to Josh Groben sing in Italian, but I don’t understand the words he’s singing. So it is with Latin at Mass. Also, most people at the Mass, didn’t respond, some got distracted looking for the place in the hymnal, where the Latin responses were listed.

Does your Mass provide Latin to English Missals? This may help people understand the Mass and become more connected. On the same note, there are people in every Mass, Latin or vernacular, that don’t care about it.

However, I’ve digressed. Not having a traditional Latin Mass, has nothing to do with the decline in attendance.

It may not have anything to do with the previous decline of attendance, but it may help to bring the current attendance up.

People who have faith, will attend Mass regardless of what language its in.

I completely agree. But, having a Latin Mass may help bring in people who prefer it. I think a lot of people draw a connection between the Mass and their faith. It is a symbolic connection to them. Perhaps having a Latin Mass makes them feel more connected to the Church and God. Having one or two Latin Mass’ at each church would help people who want that extra connection. I don’t think there would be anything wrong with it.

Respectfully,
Mark

 

[Dispector]

Been to Catholic schools all my life, and as I was bullied by Catholics, by the other students, by some of the nuns who taught me, by some of the priests, and by my parents, I wasn’t too keen on staying with the church as I got older, or going to Mass.

Ever seen the look on the face of a sensitive kid who’s been berated by a nun in front of the whole class for doing nothing other than being “different?” From out of the blue, while I was studying quietly in class, this nun told me, in front of the whole class, “why don’t you just go back into your little hole where you came from?”

And this is just ONE example.

Only from reading some G.K. Chesterton, C. S. Lewis, scriptures, and being in 12 step programs did I return.

I am so ashamed of how I was treated. I never could understand how other Catholics can so easily forget “who is your neighbor.”

I now go to Mass and try to be a decent Catholic because of what I’ve read and what I believe, certainly not though because of other’s examples. Plus I try to forgive. It’s hard.

This is terrible and I am sorry for any mistreatment you received. I am not going to try and rationalize this behavior. It was simply wrong. I am sorry you had to experience this treatment from Catholics. All it does is hurt the Church.

Respectfully,
Mark

 

[4HisChurch]

Been to Catholic schools all my life, and as I was bullied by Catholics, by the other students, by some of the nuns who taught me, by some of the priests, and by my parents, I wasn’t too keen on staying with the church as I got older, or going to Mass.

Ever seen the look on the face of a sensitive kid who’s been berated by a nun in front of the whole class for doing nothing other than being “different?” From out of the blue, while I was studying quietly in class, this nun told me, in front of the whole class, “why don’t you just go back into your little hole where you came from?”

And this is just ONE example.

Only from reading some G.K. Chesterton, C. S. Lewis, scriptures, and being in 12 step programs did I return.

I am so ashamed of how I was treated. I never could understand how other Catholics can so easily forget “who is your neighbor.”

I now go to Mass and try to be a decent Catholic because of what I’ve read and what I believe, certainly not though because of other’s examples. Plus I try to forgive. It’s hard.

It makes me so sad to hear how badly you were treated. I’m so sorry that happened to you. I’m happy you are back in the Church and trying to forgive. God bless you for that.

 

[otjm]

I’ll be sure to tell that, Jim, to the crowds next year who will return, as they do every year, for the traditionalist pilgrimage in France…attended by thousands of young people.

It is not exactly a hidden fact that SSPX is strongest in France.

TYo presume that there will be some sort of hugh influx of disaffected Catholics because of a widening of the Tridentine rite is beyond wishfull thinking. Anyone who truly believes that Christ is present in the Eucharist isn’t going to leave the Church lock, stock and barrel; and the number attending SSPX and other off-shoots of the Catholic Church in America is statistically way smaller than France. assuming that we actully see an increase in the number of parishes that offer the Tridentine rite, the large majority of those attending will be from those who are already attending Mass on a regular basis, but going to the normative rite.

Look, in plain Englisnh, there are millions of Catholics in the US, thousands of people attending something in France is what - 1%? Let’s keep a little perspective on the whole sisue.

I work with returning Catholics. The three largest causes of them quitting Church are sexual activity in youth (premarital sex), irregular marriages, and poor or non-existent catechesis. Not issues with which rite they attend.

 

[otjm]

Here are some figures from the book “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators”. The first column is date, 2nd is percentage of Catholics attending Mass, and 3rd is percentage of Protestants attending their services (all USA figures). The intervals are not of equal time spans because that’s not how the data is presented on the graph.

1953 75% 45%
1960 73% 44%
1966 68% 40%
1969 65% 39%
1973 60% 40%
1976 52% 40%
1979 52% 40%
1980 53% 40%
1981 53% 41%
1982 51% 41%
1983 52% 40%
1986 51% 40%
1988 50% 41%
1991 50% 45%
1995 45% 45%

The key thing to note here is that Protestant attendance was very steady through the 1960s, 70s and 80s, and actually started to rise in the 90s. On the other hand, Catholic attendance dropped by an enormous percentage between the early 60s and the mid 70s, leveled off for about 15 years and then started to drop again.

In the 50s and early 60s, Catholic attendance was almost double the percentage of Protestant attendance. By 1995 Catholic attendance had dropped down to Protestant levels.

This is strong evidence to me that one cannot blame the decline on “the secular culture”, since U.S. Protestants were living in the very same culture as U.S. Catholics, but their attendance hardly dropped at all, and by 1995 was as high as it was in the 50s.

These figures make it clear that something happened in the Catholic world in the 60s and 70s that did not happen in the corresponding Protestant world.

Looking at these numbers, I am reminded of the phrase about “lies, damned lies, and statistics”.

I do not question the general information that is given above, but I certainly question what they mean.

Why? Well, let me ask: what one Protestant denomenation is reputed to have a large, if not the largest, influx of Catholics?

Try Assembly of God.

Without knowing what the above statistics actually represent, one is quickly lead to false conclusions.

Further, a goodly portion of the Protestant statistic doesn’t really show what was happening during the periods listed; it is no secret that the main-line Protestant churchs were losing member at or faster than theCatholics; some were dropping out; others were moving to the evangelical and fundamentlaist churches.

To simply presume that the Protestants were holding even and the Catholics losing is to fail to look at what the statistics actually report.

 

[AlexV]

And I work every day, Otjm, with American…and some foreign…young people who are bored out of their minds with the Novus Ordo, can’t stand the “talky, banal” liturgy they have every week (to use two recurring adjectives), and who flock to Tridentine Masses.

 

[briang72]

I just finished reading an article that got me thinking.

Why do YOU think Mass attendance in the U.S. has declined?

The article blamed “dumbed-down liturgy” and the departure from traditional Mass.

I think it is poor catechesis and Protestant influence. It is clear as day in the Catechism that missing Mass on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation is a mortal sin. Unfortunately, the published Catechism has only been available since the early-to-mid 1990s.

Even still, getting a Catholic who is set in his/her ways to understand the gravity of missing Mass, especially after having gone through a childhood and young adult life where such behavior was not recognized as mortal sin, is quite a difficult task.

In addition, our Protestant friends don’t share the same view on the gravity of missing weekly worship. “If they don’t have to, why should we?”

This is why I think attendance has declined. I do not agree with or condone missing Mass without solid reason.

 

[palmas85]

Because Mass attendance began to decline before the Vatican II reforms were made and in particular the 60’s.

People aren’t going to attend Mass if they do not connect with it.

How many people attend a Spanish Mass,(or you name the language) if they don’t understand Spanish?

Granted, there are some young people who do, connect with the Latin Mass. But they’re not the norm, but the exception.

BTW, I attended Mass on Monday, at the National Shrine of Divine Mercy, in Stockbridge Mass. Parts of the Mass were said in Latin. It sounded nice, but it did not have the meaning it would have had, if it were in English. I enjoy listening to Josh Groben sing in Italian, but I don’t understand the words he’s singing. So it is with Latin at Mass. Also, most people at the Mass, didn’t respond, some got distracted looking for the place in the hymnal, where the Latin responses were listed.

However, I’ve digressed. Not having a traditional Latin Mass, has nothing to do with the decline in attendance.

People who have faith, will attend Mass regardless of what language its in.

Jim

If as you say the decline had begun prior to the reforms, which I will not argue about not having seen figures which either support or rebut, and had anything whatsoever to do with the use of Latin then the reforms should have corrected or at least had some positive effect on the the problem, all things being equal.

They did not. In fact Mass attendance took a nose dive, particularly in the west, all areas of religious life, vocations etc suffered drastic if not fatal losses and reversals and the Church seemed at a complete loss in how to get the lost sheep to return home.

So by your argument, the reason people don’t go to Mass today in the numbers they did before the reforms means they do not connect with the Mass even though it is in the vernacular.

So I would have to assume that the experiment of having the Mass in the vernacular has failed or at a minimum has serious flaws in it.

So why keep it? ** IF** as you say people who truly have faith will attend the Mass, NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE IT IS IN then a return to Latin would probably do no more harm then going to the vernacular did and might even improve things.