Why has the Church so miserably failed to inculcate and cultivate the faithful to embrace NFP?

[1ke]

I take that as a compliment. It takes bigger rocks than this to hurt my feelings!

It’s not a compliment.

I was never abrasive on purpose and I never took pride in it.

My goal was always to be **helpful **and I’ve apologized for coming across harsh in several posts (sometimes the written word does not easily convey tone).

Never compromising on the doctrine of the church does not mean being insulting to people.

 

[whatevergirl]

It’s not a compliment.

I was never abrasive on purpose and I never took pride in it.

My goal was always to be **helpful **and I’ve apologized for coming across harsh in several posts (sometimes the written word does not easily convey tone).

Never compromising on the doctrine of the church does not mean being insulting to people.

I like you 1ke…you are a blessing to this board…:hug1: And what you have written is so true. I try to share the doctrine with whoever I can…but a gentle word or two can go a long way!

 

[KHI29]

Some good points

I]from TIME
Speaking the Truth is one thing, hitting them over the head with the CCC and saying “Bad, Café Catholic, Bad” may be less than productive. Any training in Communications will tell you “How you say something is just as important as what you say”.

I agree…to teach as Jesus did, I don’t recall him beating people over the head with dogma.

from Surgei
BTW you live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world and unless you are making less than half the poverty line and have no assistance you are still wealthier than half the world whose meager lives are often made more difficult with large families.

Excellent point…no insurance, no job, no education, not a good idea

fromKHI29
No. Couples that practice NFP are still open to life because there is a mutual understanding that they could still get pregnant if it’s Gods will. Using barrier methods are trying to block Gods will. BIG difference!

God’s will is stronger than any contraceptive. That I believe. If it is HIS will, pregnancy will happen irregardless.

I would also ask, looking around your church on Sunday, and noting couples married for let’s say 10 or more years, who have only 1 or 2 children…and as blunt as you are do you sometimes want to ask them if they are contracepting? If you found out that 1/4 of the women in your parish were using ABC and admitted it to your face…would you be as blunt as you are now?

In my former parish of 1500, there was only 1 family with 7 children. The average, (as a CCD teacher, I knew alot of the families through the years) number of children were 3.

Yes… I would inform them of the Churches teaching just as I’ve done here. Is it my place to judge? Absolutely not! You are right Gods will is strong but we are still able to choose Him or reject Him, by using contraceptives you are willfully rejecting Him. As catholics we should all know where the Church stands on contraception.

 

[rlg94086]

Maybe because they realize it doesn’t work. Just a thought.

If it weren’t for NFP, my parents wouldn’t have had children. Except for those 4 times, it worked really well.

Are you saying it would have been better if you weren’t born?

 

[rlg94086]

I would also ask, looking around your church on Sunday, and noting couples married for let’s say 10 or more years, who have only 1 or 2 children…and as blunt as you are do you sometimes want to ask them if they are contracepting? If you found out that 1/4 of the women in your parish were using ABC and admitted it to your face…would you be as blunt as you are now?

Of course! Are you saying we should shy away from teaching the truth because it isn’t popular? If I found out that 1/2 of the parishioners were cheating on their taxes, should I be shy about telling them they are sinning by doing it?

In my former parish of 1500, there was only 1 family with 7 children. The average, (as a CCD teacher, I knew alot of the families through the years) number of children were 3.

Yes. Again, is the teaching of the Church supposed to be based on how well it is accepted? That is incredibly illogical, but it seems to be the norm in this relativistic world we live in. Catholics need to learn to be Catholics.

 

[mark_a]

Why has the Church so miserably failed to inculcate and cultivate the faithful to embrace NFP? …and why should we expect that the stats will significantly improve?

The Church does not yet know how to teach this. The Church will learn.

Feel fortunate that the Church didn’t cave when everyone did.

 

[Julianna]

Of course! Are you saying we should shy away from teaching the truth because it isn’t popular? If I found out that 1/2 of the parishioners were cheating on their taxes, should I be shy about telling them they are sinning by doing it?

You might get a few, “mind your own business” remarks, that I guarantee, and you will be subject to your “own” shortcomings. I find that as in the maninline evangelical churches there are two classes, those are steeped in the letter of the law, and those who are in spirit of the law (realizing their own humaness and failings). It seems those of the former not only have a guaranteed certificate to heaven, but the endless financial, intellectual, emotional rationale to be favored to point out “real” and “non-real” Catholics. And let’s not forget the crystal ball. IMHO, I don’t know, and you don’t know either.

Yes. Again, is the teaching of the Church supposed to be based on how well it is accepted? That is incredibly illogical, but it seems to be the norm in this relativistic world we live in. Catholics need to learn to be Catholics.

So, are the families with 3 children suspect in using ABC? If so, what should be done with them? Are they “real” Catholics or are they Catholics of flesh and blood who fail, time and time again, still seeking the “realness” of being Catholic, that so many of you have found?

I know many Catholics, men and women who practice ABC. I believe a statistic was posted on these forums awhile back. I do not know their reason whether it be, economic or health status, so in my silence and respect for their PRIVATE business, I do not comment. This is something that “they” will have to reconcile with God. The Church has so miserably failed to inculcate and cultivate the faithful to embrace NFP because NFP is “riskier” than ABC, percentage wise, and family finances and health care are at the top of that list.

 

[surgei]

Not to disrespect your uncle, but most OBGYNs are poorly schooled in the Catholic teaching on NFP. Also, while pleasure is a wonderful byproduct of sex it has very little to do with its purpose.

Let me give a different frame of reference. Assuming you’re Catholic, would you ever go up to receive the Eucharist with a piece of duct tape across your mouth so there would be no way for the sacred host to get in? Instead of receiving the host you would simply put in in your pocket until a time when it was right for you. You wouldn’t do that because aside from looking silly you would also be terribly profaning the sacrament.

Contraception profanes the marital act. Instead of accepting your spouse’s fertility and cooperating with it, one rejects the spouse’s fertility as a desirable quality; indeed views it as a problem; actually views pregnancy as a consequence instead of a blessing; and turns the purpose of sex from self donation into self serving.

No my uncle understands Catholic Theology quite well.
In that the church views the marital act as a picture of union with God, we cannot simply set pleasure asside as a “byproduct” of the marital act.
NFP is in no way an acceptance of a spouses fertility but only of the unfertile times of a woman. It does not view the fertile times any less of a “disease” than what you claim for the contraceptor. In accepting only the unfertile times it objectifies the body of a woman more completely. It is an even graver issue than is those who see the mensus as unclean in the sanctification or sin sense of the term avoiding the holy chalice of Christ.

 

[edwest2]

People have failed miserably, not the Church. Jesus Christ does not force anyone to love Him. Marriage is a union and a sacrificial act of giving between both people. No one is perfect and we live with the good habits and the flaws.

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, but the secular world either doesn’t hear or doesn’t want to hear what God is offering to them.

Let’s review:

1960 The Pill is introduced.
1968 Hippies agitate for “free love” which means sex with anyone. They “don’t need a piece of paper to live with their old lady.”
1973 Abortion legalized.
1978 Gloria Steinem and NOW drive a wedge between men and women. Men are now the enemy. Both sides are presented as living in two warring camps. Adult Bookstores selling hard core pornography spring up all over the country.
1980s Porn in hotels and motels on cable. No-Fault Divorce completes its sweep of the United States. No kids. $75 and you’re out. Crack cocaine begins its proliferation.
1990s Porn and profanity on TV. The internet just increases the access level to porn. At this point, you can’t tell a believer from a non-believer. It’s not uncommon to meet people who are on marriage two or three.
2000s Into the abyss. Most issues of the day have to do with human sexuality: abortion, gay marriage, embryonic stem cell research, cohabitation with sex, ads for people looking to commit adultery in some newspapers.

NFP is proposed by the Church. No one comes to your house if you miss mass. God loves you but does not force you. You have free will. There is also such a thing as planning your life together before the wedding ceremony and not taking a “shoot first and ask questions later” approach.

We are commanded to be holy in all we do. It is up to each one of us to follow. And when we don’t, it’s not the Church’s fault.

God bless,
Ed

 

[whatevergirl]

Anyone following the ortho-cyclen class action suit making national news? I don’t know the specific details, but it goes to show that the pill/patch can cause a myriad of health problems for women, and for what? A few unadulterated, uncensored orgasms? For what? To not have a baby? I think that the ‘right to have sex’ movement that swept the nation for women (is Sex & The City glam, etc) was a big fat lie. There are consequences either on this earth or in the afterlife for couples who contracept. Mainly for women, because once a woman is on the pill, a couple doesn’t take equal responsibility, but rather it’s all on the woman.

I speak from experience, and I was not* willing *to hear or heed the Church’s teachings at times–and I started paying the price with heart racing episodes and painful migraines, once I hit my 30’s. So, will I chastise women who use the pill? No, I won’t…because I was one too…but I will say that for women who use the pill…please know that there is a better way. God didn’t intend for us to be sick, so we could have sex at whim. And men out there–take heed to what your wives are ingesting…be active in your own sex lives as well. That’s the beauty of NFP–it CAUSES A COUPLE TO BE EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BIRTH OR POSTPONEMENT OF BIRTH, IN A MARRIAGE.

And…Abstaining isn’t the end of the world…it’s actually a beautiful thing to have to hold one’s self back at times, from pleasure. We live in a very unbridled society…and we can see, that it hasn’t paid off.

 

[whatevergirl]

I wanted to add…that I now know how Peter or Paul must have felt, when they realized that they had betrayed the Lord. And the Lord loved their repentance. So…that gives us great hope here on earth–that when we don’t believe in something the Church teaches as coming from our Father in Heaven, we can look at our ancestors before us…and see the beauty in a broken soul healed by the Lord. I was a broken soul, and didn’t want to believe–but once my eyes were widened to Truth…wow, it is an amazingly free-ing feeling. To not be in bondage to ABC is very liberating, and I feel much better physically.

But, I only wish to plant seeds, and pray for everyone who believes the lie that society tells men and women about ‘their sexual rights,’ that someday, they too will just open their minds up to the wisdom of Our Church.:bible1:

 

[edwest2]

If I might add, the false fruits of the “women’s liberation” movement are still with us today. The falsehood that women could act like the male chauvenist pigs they were supposed to stay away from was spread. TV shows like Sex and the City, and most TV shows, show that ‘if it feels good, do it’ is the primary message.

God bless,
Ed

 

[whatevergirl]

If I might add, the false fruits of the “women’s liberation” movement are still with us today. The falsehood that women could act like the male chauvenist pigs they were supposed to stay away from was spread. TV shows like Sex and the City, and most TV shows, show that ‘if it feels good, do it’ is the primary message.

God bless,
Ed

Yes, sadly. For me, I only began the pill after child #2, was not having sex before I was married-- but regret that decision to take the pill at all. At this stage of life, I have gone to confession, repented…and don’t intend on repeating that sin. You have a great way of putting it–women have complained over the years of men just grabbing ‘what they want,’ and they are out the door…and that is precisely what Sex and the City would like to encourage, but for women. Excellent point!

 

[StCsDavid]

No my uncle understands Catholic Theology quite well.
In that the church views the marital act as a picture of union with God, we cannot simply set pleasure asside as a “byproduct” of the marital act.
NFP is in no way an acceptance of a spouses fertility but only of the unfertile times of a woman. It does not view the fertile times any less of a “disease” than what you claim for the contraceptor. In accepting only the unfertile times it objectifies the body of a woman more completely. It is an even graver issue than is those who see the mensus as unclean in the sanctification or sin sense of the term avoiding the holy chalice of Christ.

Glad to hear your uncle is up to speed. He is ahead of the curve for most OBGYNs. You seem to be inferring things into my statement. Pleasure is a part of sex, but not its ultimate end goal. If it was just about pleasure with the chance of getting pregnant now and again then the Church probably wouldn’t mind masturbation. But there is a far deeper meaning involved.

Disease? I never used that word. Perhaps you have me confused with another thread.

I would posit that the woman is never rejected with NFP at all but rather accepted wholly as she is and the act regarded as holy in and of itself.

It’s a difficult concept for anyone raised in our Western culture which proclaims a lie about the purpose of sex. Your frustration is quite understandable.

 

[rlg94086]

You might get a few, “mind your own business” remarks, that I guarantee, and you will be subject to your “own” shortcomings. I find that as in the maninline evangelical churches there are two classes, those are steeped in the letter of the law, and those who are in spirit of the law (realizing their own humaness and failings). It seems those of the former not only have a guaranteed certificate to heaven, but the endless financial, intellectual, emotional rationale to be favored to point out “real” and “non-real” Catholics. And let’s not forget the crystal ball. IMHO, I don’t know, and you don’t know either.

So, are the families with 3 children suspect in using ABC? If so, what should be done with them? Are they “real” Catholics or are they Catholics of flesh and blood who fail, time and time again, still seeking the “realness” of being Catholic, that so many of you have found?

I know many Catholics, men and women who practice ABC. I believe a statistic was posted on these forums awhile back. I do not know their reason whether it be, economic or health status, so in my silence and respect for their PRIVATE business, I do not comment. This is something that “they” will have to reconcile with God. The Church has so miserably failed to inculcate and cultivate the faithful to embrace NFP because NFP is “riskier” than ABC, percentage wise, and family finances and health care are at the top of that list.

LOL…if it’s their PRIVATE business, how do you know they practice ABC?

You make a lot of false assumptions of my approach to this matter. The only time someone’s bedroom life comes up in conversation is in discussion during our faith formation classes, in casual conversation with fellow parishioners (e.g. at our men’s retreat) or when someone asks me one-on-one about the subject. In all of those cases, I am very blunt about the truth…which is the question you asked. It is not helpful to anyone to be wishy-washy and say “well it is really between you and God, so just do what feels right to you.” Again, it is like my cheating on taxes comment. Would you really tell people that cheating on taxes is a private matter…between them and God? Of course not. It is immoral. We have to clearly state when things are immoral.

What you assume is that by stating the truth I am being judgmental and condemning them to hell. I do no such thing. I recognize our fallen nature and my own shortcomings, and I pray for them and me to find the right path.

As far as NFP being “riskier,” that is just a lack of information on your part. First of all, the term “risky” seems really out of place, unless you are talking about the most serious of medical conditions. Having an unplanned child is still a blessing from God. As my mom used to say, “if you wait until you can ‘afford’ children, you will never have a child.” If practiced properly, NFP “works.” If not, it doesn’t. When people say it “didn’t work 4 times,” it is not a scientific conclusion. Is it easier to remember to pop a pill every day? Sure…sin is always easier.

 

[whatevergirl]

In addition to what the above poster mentions…the rythym method is actually riskier…but NFP encompasses so much more ‘science’ now, it’s astounding. ( in a good way) I’m looking forward to learning more about it, but in doing some research yesterday online, I discovered that many people have followed the rhythm method in the past, and it failed, because it’s often not a cyclical method, like other more scientific forms of NFP. A woman’s cycle can be different every month, so these advanced methods are really quite effective, either way-if a couple is seeking conception or wishing to postpone pregnancy.

 

[Lady_D_I]

Anyone following the ortho-cyclen class action suit making national news? I don’t know the specific details, but it goes to show that the pill/patch can cause a myriad of health problems for women, and for what?

I haven’t heard about a suit related to the pill, but I am aware of the Ortho Evra Patch. I am still puzzled the patch is on the market since a woman “will be exposed to about 60% more estrogen if you use ORTHO EVRA than if you use a typical birth control pill containing 35 micrograms (mcg) of estrogen.”
Source

 

[1ke]

LOL…if it’s their PRIVATE business, how do you know they practice ABC?

You have no idea how many people will tell you their private business without provocation. Really, ettiquette is a lost art.

Not to mention that those who don’t see anything wrong with it also don’t see anything wrong with talking about it.

I had to listen to two coworkers talk about their BCPs back-and-forth between the two of them-- right in front of me-- last time I was in the office.

 

[rlg94086]

You have no idea how many people will tell you their private business without provocation. Really, ettiquette is a lost art.

Not to mention that those who don’t see anything wrong with it also don’t see anything wrong with talking about it.

I had to listen to two coworkers talk about their BCPs back-and-forth between the two of them-- right in front of me-- last time I was in the office.

Yep, in fact they are often more militant about it than most Catholics who don’t use ABC…usually saying something like “the Church needs to stay out of my bedroom.” They clearly don’t understand the Church’s role in our lives and our personal calls to holiness.

Additionally, they tend to treat someone who doesn’t subscribe to their worldview as a religous nut or a moron. Anyone with more than 2-3 kids can attest to the odd comments that aquaintances like to make when your wife is pregnant with your next child.

“Haven’t you figured out what causes that?”

“So, are you going to get snipped?”

It’s amazing how the privacy only applies to people who are contracepting.

 

[Listener]

If contraception leads to objectification, then those who do not contracept should not objectify. The leading group world wide who does not contracept is Islam. They do not contracept therefore they should be less likely to objectify wormen. The oposite is the case.
Could it be that the rise of objectification of persons is not do to contraception but other forms of technology. Theire are more things that have happened then the pronouncement of Human Life by Paul VI. Equating oposition to this non infallable teaching of the Church to degrading women is absurd.

This is an interesting point. I am not sure myself that contraception leads to “abortion mentality.” Back in the 1950’s in Communist Russia, it was well known that Russian women had a lot of abortions because no other method of birth control was available to them.

Getting back to the original question, I am not sure how the Church would go about making sure everyone followed the rules about Natural Family Planning. Have they ever done this for any other sin? For example, are they going to make sure that men who abuse their wives know for sure that they are commiting a sin? Are they going to abolish Road Rage? Are they going to prevent people from getting a divorce for frivilous reasons? The list could go on and on.