Why hate Paganism?

[mjolnir]

Why is it that all Axial and Post-Axial Religions like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Confusianism attack and refute the natural paganism which blossomed naturally throughout the world before the Axial Age?

What is it about the affirmations of Paganism that has to be put down so violently by these newer Axial and Post-Axial Preligions?

And why are they so anti-feminine? What transpired during the Axial Age which turned man against woman and instead of recognizing her as the bearer of Life they had to reduce her to a second-class citizen ‘at best’ and a piece of property ‘or worse’?

Why?

 

[Della]

You have a lot of assumptions. Where did you get these ideas from?

 

[Reepicheep]

Mjolnir:
What does “Axial” mean?
You speak of other religions “attacking and refuting” paganism.
But would not believing pagans wish to “refute” Christianity, Buddhism and others?
What leads you to consider other religions “anti-feminine”?

 

[mjolnir]

You have a lot of assumptions. Where did you get these ideas from?

Well it’s pretty common knowledge that all the Axial Age Religions have a few key attributes which asserts a Patriarchal Social Worldview which appears to attack the equality of women.

Source:

The Great Transformation: The World in the Time of Buddha, Socrates, Confucius and Jeremiah (2006), ISBN 1-903809-75-4

 

[mjolnir]

Mjolnir:
What does “Axial” mean?

1. The idea of Axial Age is a theory proposed by the German philosophers Karl Jaspers (1883-1969) to describe the coincident appearance of several major world religious and philosophical founders between 800 to 200 BCE.
2. The major figures of the Axial Age includes Socrates of Greece, Isaiah of Israel, Zoroaster of Persia, Buddha of India, and Confucius of China. Some of these figures may not be classified as strictly religious and, therefore, Jaspers’ idea of Axial Age primarily denotes the simultaneous founding and breakthrough in these classical civilizations.
3. The central Axial Age thinkers in ancient Greece are: Homer (ca. 9th cent. BCE), author of Iliad and Odyssey; Parmenides (ca. 515 BCE) who founded the philosophy of being that emphasized being is the unchangeable reality of the essence of all existence, while in contrast, Heraclitus (540-480 BCE?) held the philosophy of becoming which argued that all things are always in change; Socrates (469-399 BCE?), together with Plato (428 BCE-348/7 BCE) and Aristotle (384-322 BCE), became founder of Western philosophy; Thucydides (460-404 BCE) whose History of Peloponnesian War was regarded as the first historical writing of Western culture; and Archimedes (287-212 BCE?, legendary for his Eureka and his Archimedean point: Give me a place to stand on and I will move the earth), founder of Western mathematics and physics.
4. The central Axial Age figures in Palestine are the eighth century Hebrew prophets, such as Elijah (875-848 BCE?), Isaiah (740-681 BCE?), and Jeremiah (627-586 BCE?). Their prophetic message of ethical monotheism set the Hebrew religion sharply in contrast to the polytheistic religions of the Ancient Near East and permanently shifted the course of development of Judaism.
5. Zoroaster (628-551 BCE?), founder of Zoroastrianism, represents the Axial Age breakthrough in Persia (Iran). Zoroaster’s teaching is basically a monotheism with a dualist cosmology. He preached that the Wise Lord (Ahura Mazda) is the highest god of the world who is opposed by Ahriman, the evil deity. Mazda will achieve final victory over the evil and, thus, gives joy and hope to all followers. The major Zoroastrian scriptures are Avesta and the hymns of Gathas.
6. The Axial Age in India is the time of the end of Veda and the beginning of Buddhism. Upanishads is a collection of teachings of Hindu sages from 1000 BCE to 600 BCE which came as a conclusion to Vedas, the ancient Hindu scriptures. The basic theme of Upanishads (Vedanta: the end of Veda) is the union between atman (soul) and Brahman (universe or ultimate reality). Buddhism is one of the great world religions founded by Siddhartha Gautama (563-483 BCE) who is usually revered as the Buddha (i.e. the enlightened one).
7. China at the time of the Axial Age is the period of the founding of Confucianism and Taoism. Confucius (551-479 BCE), like Plato, tried to lobby their contemporary rulers but failed in their political endeavors. Ironically, the Confucian philosophy was legitimatized by the later dynasties to become the ruling ideology of the Chinese culture. Taoism was originated by Lao Tze and Chuang Tze. Lao Tze who is attributed to be the author of Tao-Te Ching (i.e. “The Classic of Great Way and Virtue,” dated ca. 300 BCE) remains to be an obscure figure. Chuang Tze (died ca. 329 BCE?) further explicated the idea of Tao into the development of philosophical and religious Taoism. Mo Tze (also known as Mo-Ti, 470-391 BCE?) preached the concept of universal love in contrast to the Confucian hierarchy of social rites and filial piety. Mohism became the major counterpart to the mainstream Confucianism.

You speak of other religions “attacking and refuting” paganism.

But would not believing pagans wish to “refute” Christianity, Buddhism and others?

Sure but paganism doesn’t demand that it be the ‘only game in town’ so there is a much less of such a risk unless the religion attacking demands supremacy (a la: Christianity in Europe or Islam in the Middle-East).

What leads you to consider other religions “anti-feminine”?

[The Eve Of Destruction By Karen Armstrong](Karen Armstrong on anti-feminine teachings of Christianity)

 

[Damascus]

I dont hate Pagans. I hate false religion. Pagans are practicing a false religion.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Why not worship the Creator directly and explore the question of whether he cares for and has spoken to man, as monotheism has historically claimed?

 

[mjolnir]

I dont hate Pagans. I hate false religion. Pagans are practicing a false religion.

This is the kind of authoritarian elitism which is born out of Axial Religious ‘claims’.

“I’m right, your wrong!”

“You ask why? Because my book says so!”

“Now, get Baptized you pagan or we’ll kill you and your family!”

You sound a lot like your fore-father Charlemagne as he forced the Baptism of the Saxons at sword-point!

Keep up the ‘good’ work!

 

[Damascus]

This is the kind of authoritarian elitism which is born out of Axial Religious ‘claims’.

“I’m right, your wrong!”

“You ask why? Because my book says so!”

“Now, get Baptized you pagan or we’ll kill you and your family!”

You sound a lot like your fore-father Charlemagne as he forced the Baptism of the Saxons at sword-point!

Keep up the ‘good’ work!

I think you are protesting too much. If you think I am going to say all religions are worthy ones and none are false, you can think again.

You think I am wrong too. Yet, I never mentioned killing. You did.
I said I dont hate pagans.

You sound like you are condeming me personally here.

Hey, sounds like Paganism is a nice thing and gives people peace.
Where can I sign up?
NOT

 

[rr1213]

Why is it that all Axial and Post-Axial Religions like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Confusianism attack and refute the natural paganism which blossomed naturally throughout the world before the Axial Age?

What is it about the affirmations of Paganism that has to be put down so violently by these newer Axial and Post-Axial Preligions?

And why are they so anti-feminine? What transpired during the Axial Age which turned man against woman and instead of recognizing her as the bearer of Life they had to reduce her to a second-class citizen ‘at best’ and a piece of property ‘or worse’?

Why?

Where do you live? The USA is still a free country, you can practice your paganism here to your heart’s desire.

 

[mjolnir]

I think you are protesting too much. If you think I am going to say all religions are worthy ones and none are false, you can think again.

You think I am wrong too. Yet, I never mentioned killing. You did.
I said I dont hate pagans.

You sound like you are condeming me personally here.

Hey, sounds like Paganism is a nice thing and gives people peace.

Where can I sign up?
NOT

I believe you personally carry ‘some’ responsibility for the ‘evils’ of your tradition and it’s teachings by the fact of promoting it knowing what you should know.

Christianity was spread throughout europe by the sword of Charlemagne’s armies in service of the Pope. Do your history and you will find it outrageous to see the kind of posturing found on this and many other Axial Religious sites.

I’m only visiting to wake you up to the fact that there are those who haven’t forgotten and demand that europe be given back it’s birthright that was taken from them by Christian Usurpers.

 

[Damascus]

I believe you personally carry ‘some’ responsibility for the ‘evils’ of your tradition and it’s teachings by the fact of promoting it knowing what you should know.

Christianity was spread throughout europe by the sword of Charlemagne’s armies in service of the Pope. Do your history and you will find it outrageous to see the kind of posturing found on this and many other Axial Religious sites.

I’m only visiting to wake you up to the fact that there are those who haven’t forgotten and demand that europe be given back it’s birthright that was taken from them by Christian Usurpers.

I see. You want to wake me up. You say I have a degree of responsibility for “evils” of my tradition and its teachings by promoting it.

Well, I am awake now. Thank you. I still dont hate pagans no matter how hard you try to tempt me to.

Get behind me Satan!

 

[majick275]

just so we’re clear on the past sins of your tradition. Many of my ancestors got to watch their friends and family be sacrificed to pagan gods like Odin. some even got to be raped as an offering to freya. If we are going to go down the path of assigning current blame for past history then let’s jetison the false notion of the peaceful, communing with nature virtuous pagan. Picts, Celts, Saxons, Huns all had savage histories. In Asia we could go into the mongols, the virtual genocide of the Ainu. I’m not really sure that mayans, aztecs, olmecs or even Zulu weren’t every bit as patriarchal as your examples. I ould by your definition classify many pagan religions as “post-axial”. I think our ability to even define Pre-axial cultures/religions is very liimited. We can gatehr some level of information on SOME of the more advanced or at least more prominent cultures. Egypt, China, mesoamerica, sumeria all seem to have had some pretty violent elements and don’t seem to be champions of the feminist cause either.

Try reading some Jean Auel. her fictitious stories are supposed to illustrate what little we know about the earliest humans. Hmmmm they paint a pretty violent patriarchal picture too.

What story books are you getting this idea from that “once upon a time” there was no Christian God and everyone treated women and men as equals and there were no religious wars and everyone lived in peace and harmony?

I see an awful lot of anthropological evidence for the view that ever since Adam and Eve got kicked out of Eden that humans have a pretty rough time with Satan always stirring folks to violence, worship of false gods and all kinds of foulness.

as to the tolerance for other gods…in actual practice I think you’ll find that historically “not so much” but even then from a Christian perspective “so what?” we see those “gods” as figments of human imagination promoted by Satan as a deception. Our God tells us that’s a bad thing and for us to work against that.

I understand that you feel all picked on cuz of your beliefs and you see some philosophical “validation” from the works of a few scholars. I will tell you to be careful and read a little deeper.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, those “Christian usurpers” who kept you happy pagans from being forcibly converted by the Muslims and later being slaughtered by the Mongols. . .You know, if Christians converted ‘by the sword’ (source for this please, and make sure it’s primary source material), how come it took so long (centuries for many countries and groups) and how come we don’t hear about mass resistance, etc. and don’t even start me on the internecine difficulties of Buddhism, Jainism, and the ‘pacifist’ religions etc. if you are attempting the fallacy of implying that any ‘difficulties’ or ‘problems’ within a religion negate its innate truth. . .

You know I personally have nothing against people of other beliefs. Far from it. God made them too, and He loves them. Naturally I feel my religion is TRUE (else why would I profess it), and I share this (I am always free to do this or would you have me hide my religious beliefs, because that doesn’t sound very fair or peaceful). I don’t around claiming untruths, half-truths, or make ‘assumptions’ about yours or any other beliefs. It might behoove you IF you truly have a CONCERN about Christians to ASK them what THEY KNOW AND BELIEVE instead of taking a high horse pontificating position and trying to tell us how we are either stupid gullible fools or else complicit in horrendous CRIMES for professing OUR faith. This is a Catholic forum so you are definitely going to hear the CATHOLIC position. In so far as it goes against your “truth”, well, we are sorry if your feelings are hurt by this, but truth doesn’t depend on feelings, and we will be the first to try to bring you to the peace and joy–the kind that aren’t just ‘feelings’ --of God Himself. We will try to make it as painless as possible but in the end, hey, I’m banking on the Word and the word of God, Jesus Christ. Again, He made you, He made me, and we’re brothers and sisters who can lovingly disagree and hopefully be guided to the truth.

 

[Contarini]

Why is it that all Axial and Post-Axial Religions like Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Confusianism attack and refute the natural paganism which blossomed naturally throughout the world before the Axial Age?

How does Buddhism do this? Confucianism doesn’t like anything that seems in bad taste or too excitable, so there are perhaps some aspects of “natural paganism” it might want to downplay, but in China Confucianism blends in quite easily with traditional religion, if I’m not mistaken (as does Buddhism).

It seems to me that you’re including these because of your “Axial” thesis even though the evidence doesn’t support you.

Take away these dubious examples, and the answer is simple. Monotheistic religions don’t allow for polytheism, period.

However, much of the practice and culture of this “natural” paganism survived in Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. That’s what fundamentalist Protestants can’t stand, but I think it’s wonderful.

Edwin

 

[mjolnir]

just so we’re clear on the past sins of your tradition. Many of my ancestors got to watch their friends and family be sacrificed to pagan gods like Odin. some even got to be raped as an offering to freya. If we are going to go down the path of assigning current blame for past history then let’s jetison the false notion of the peaceful, communing with nature virtuous pagan. Picts, Celts, Saxons, Huns all had savage histories. In Asia we could go into the mongols, the virtual genocide of the Ainu. I’m not really sure that mayans, aztecs, olmecs or even Zulu weren’t every bit as patriarchal as your examples. I ould by your definition classify many pagan religions as “post-axial”. I think our ability to even define Pre-axial cultures/religions is very liimited. We can gatehr some level of information on SOME of the more advanced or at least more prominent cultures. Egypt, China, mesoamerica, sumeria all seem to have had some pretty violent elements and don’t seem to be champions of the feminist cause either.

Trust me when I tell you that the Norse nor any european pagan culture mets our modern day test of ‘peaceful’. Your ‘mapping’ current trends to ancient cultures and that’s just flat wrong to do.

Cultures ‘evolve’ but I would posit that when you look at life in pagan Norway and Northern European Cultures pre-christian ‘women’ were ‘not’ property but equals.

That is not the teachings of ‘your’ faith nor the evidence of ‘your’ practice.

Why?

Try reading some Jean Auel. her fictitious stories are supposed to illustrate what little we know about the earliest humans. Hmmmm they paint a pretty violent patriarchal picture too.

Once agrarian cultures moved from survival to surplus this freed tribes to roam. Tribes with surplus has things of value and thus the rise of thievery, war and rape.

It isn’t the supernatural ‘devil’ but the ‘greed’ of tribes abusing other tribes.

What story books are you getting this idea from that “once upon a time” there was no Christian God and everyone treated women and men as equals and there were no religious wars and everyone lived in peace and harmony?

I believe in a setting where you don’t have an external authority declaring women as second class citizens the natural value of both sexes rise to the top. That might be naive but I do see that around the workplace.

I see an awful lot of anthropological evidence for the view that ever since Adam and Eve got kicked out of Eden that humans have a pretty rough time with Satan always stirring folks to violence, worship of false gods and all kinds of foulness.

I believe that there are a lot of folk-tales which articulate this kind of thing just as well.

as to the tolerance for other gods…in actual practice I think you’ll find that historically “not so much” but even then from a Christian perspective “so what?” we see those “gods” as figments of human imagination promoted by Satan as a deception. Our God tells us that’s a bad thing and for us to work against that.

I was thinking of Norse Cultures welcoming the Christian God only to have Christian Culture ‘force’ them to accepting it through trade sanctions later. That was just plain ‘wrong’.

I understand that you feel all picked on cuz of your beliefs and you see some philosophical “validation” from the works of a few scholars. I will tell you to be careful and read a little deeper.

I will. You presented a pretty good case. I’m not sure I agree with it but I appreciate the intelligent dialogue.

Thank care.

 

[Damascus]

I have a question, hopefully you are ready to present an intelligent response to it,

What makes you think that Catholics hate Pagans?

Is your ego so big you think we waste our time hating pagans?

 

[mjolnir]

How does Buddhism do this? Confucianism doesn’t like anything that seems in bad taste or too excitable, so there are perhaps some aspects of “natural paganism” it might want to downplay, but in China Confucianism blends in quite easily with traditional religion, if I’m not mistaken (as does Buddhism).

Think of religions as methods and technologies for greater awareness of reality (whatever that reality is).

Buddha critized a great deal of the technology of Hinduism and the preconceived metaphysics which is asserted. He was Axial but also a great deal of Hindu adapted to the Axial way of thinking. Read the Rig Vedda and see what I mean. It has more in common with Judaism than Yoga and other enlightenment traditions that came later.

Confucianism departmentalized ethics into a system of behavior where Taoism was attempting to grasp the Tao (i.e. Reality) on it’s terms not ours. Confucianism does it the other way round.

Take away these dubious examples, and the answer is simple. Monotheistic religions don’t allow for polytheism, period.

Not really. That’s a cover for an end run to grasp ‘objective’ Truth and an ‘objective’ articulation of it which paganism ultimately never claims.

However, much of the practice and culture of this “natural” paganism survived in Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. That’s what fundamentalist Protestants can’t stand, but I think it’s wonderful.

To a certain extend I might agree with you but Protestantism is a more literal application of the Christian message and is ultimately pushing both traditions into facing up to the fact that they aren’t the purest application of the message. Of course that application demonstrates that the message is questionable ethically.

 

[rr1213]

I’m only visiting to wake you up to the fact that there are those who haven’t forgotten and demand that europe be given back it’s birthright that was taken from them by Christian Usurpers.

Agreed. And while we’re on the subject of historical injustices, I demand reparations for the damage done by US troops to the property and persons of my Southern ancestors in the American Civil War, reparations for damages done to my Loyalist ancestors during the American Revolution, reparations for the murder of kinsmen by French-goaded Indians during the French & Indian wars, reparations for some of my Anglo-Saxon kinsmen killed by those Norman beasts who took over England in 1066, and, finally, reparations for my Christian ancestors who were fed to Lions by those Pagan Romans! Pay up! Now!

 

[mjolnir]

I have a question, hopefully you are ready to present an intelligent response to it,

What makes you think that Catholics hate Pagans?

Is your ego so big you think we waste our time hating pagans?

A history of systematic demonization and extermination for starts…

Read Malleus Maleficarum (eek!!!)