Why have you come to believe?

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

My little testimony is this: the closer I cling to God and the Church, the kinder and more patient I am with my fellow man. When I start to drift away, in comes the judginess, the irritability, the temper.

Peace

 

[fredystairs]

The printing press that had the potential to bring reading to the masses was opposed by none other than the RCC.

Do you have a cite for this statement?

The future Pope Pius II saw a copy of the Gutenberg Bible and was quite taken by it. He wrote to Cardinal Carvajal in Rome saying that Gutenberg’s Bibles are “exceedingly clean and correct in their script, and without error, such as Your Excellency could read effortlessly without glasses.” The future pope saw the usefulness of the printing press for printing Bibles.

http://www.history.com/news/7-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-gutenberg-bible,

 

[AIPM1615]

Wow, thank you for so many thoughtful replies. You all must be early risers.

Yeah, anytime I see someone who tries to discredit Christianity with science, I’m always suspicious of their motives, especially given that’s not how science is supposed to work. Anyway, what I believe can be summed up in the Nicene Creed.

In the classical sense you’re right, but the Enlightenment-spawned naturalism (and the postmodern materialism) has essentially done just that. Not that science is “out to get religion,” per se, though it certainly doesn’t do the idea of supernatural existence any favors. The scientific method has become the be-all, end-all of knowledge. People want facts, so they expect some mathematical equation, maybe an image from the Hubble telescope, or God knows what else. Empirical and testable proof. I’m not saying that’s right, since science is not the only form of knowledge to be sure. But that’s what the most commonly held position seems to be.

What I find fascinating, is that if none or our faith or beliefs mean a fig to these people, why are they so (you should pardon the expression) hell-bent on talking about it? So you don’t believe. OK, what do you want then? I have a right to belief. Why come here and dismiss everything I hold dear, true, and holy?

Maybe you’re just used to malicious and argumentative atheists on this forum. I’m not here to dismiss everything you hold dear, true, and holy, and your beliefs are of genuine interest to me. My hope was that the atheistic onslaught would hold off, since I’m asking people of faith to give a brief, sincere testimony of why they have faith. That’s all. I have no control over the “other nonbelievers,” but maybe they’ll take my request to heart and be quiet for a little while. There’s enough bickering in the world… and in my head. Sheesh.

The ones who talk respectfully are usually interested from some sort of academic or just general knowledge-gathering perspective. I have a passing interest in how atheists and agnostics think for the same reason.

I hope I haven’t disrespected anyone in my few posts thus far. Not my intention whatsoever.

The OP can have whatever opinion they want, but they are misrepresenting their opinion as fact. It makes no sense to say that “God doesn’t make himself known” it’s just a circular arguement: I won’t believe in Jesus because God doesn’t make himself known.

Forgive me if that’s how my words came across. I don’t presume to have absolute knowledge. It’s my educated opinion that God does not make himself known. I’m also not trying to offer any arguments at all, circular or otherwise. What I stated is what I’ve come to notice, and I’m interested in what compels people to overcome these objections.

–

I’ve got a long day of traveling ahead of me, so I’m sorry if I don’t reply again for awhile.
Thank you all so much.

 

[pocaracas]

Do you have a cite for this statement?

No I do not.
The things that are stored in my head that are wrong… thanks for correcting me!

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

The OP can have whatever opinion they want, but they are misrepresenting their opinion as fact. It makes no sense to say that “God doesn’t make himself known” it’s just a circular arguement: I won’t believe in Jesus because God doesn’t make himself known.

Forgive me if that’s how my words came across. I don’t presume to have absolute knowledge. It’s my educated opinion that God does not make himself known. I’m also not trying to offer any arguments at all, circular or otherwise.

You implicitly believe that God doesn’t not exist. Nobody with an educated opinion denies that Jesus existed on earth. If Jesus was God, then he made himself known. if Jesus wasn’t God then the God that Catholics say exists, doesn’t. Therefore, the logical conclusion of your statement is that God doesn’t exist. No Muslim or Jew is going to agree that God doesn’t make himself known either for that matter.

 

[Reuben_J]

Am a cradle Catholic. Had a very intense religious life as a kid. Backslide a few years in my adulthood after graduation and had a job. You know the usual stuff - independence is a great Satan’s favorite.

Found my faith again after being touched by the Holy Spirit. Realized how much God loves me, repented and come back to the Lord with a vengeance, making up for the lost time when He as not number one in my life.

How I believe was a great grace from God by making me see and experience His love which transforms me.

 

[Kei]

You say you do not like philosophical arguemnts, but how does one come to the transcendent reality without right use of reason?

I personally went through years and years of study, particularly concerning Jesus.
I felt intellectually positive, but something was…missing. It’s like it just wasn’t enough.
Well, long story short, had a bit of an experience, still wasn’t satisfied, went to confession and then the gift of Faith made itself more clear. It is indeed a gift. In a state of mortal sin, it is more clearly lost.

To me, the world seems FULL of the work of God. I don’t get how people can say it is not. Do you live in a city or something?
But I think contemplating on these will bring one to God:
The fact of existence itself.
And the fact of an ORDERED existence.

Also you have some misconceptions about miracles. They’re not all about curing cancer, my word. They’re not even all about healings. Many will try to explain away things, but usually they miss an important detail or such. Look to St Padre Pio. Or the more popular apparitions, such as of Our Lady. We have even Eucharistic miracles. Many of the lives of the saints are peppered with miraculous activity.
Of course, miracles are usually extraordinary and don’t happen all the time. God often works in the mundane. All Good comes from Him.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Can I recommend a book? The Soul’s Upward Longing by Fr. Robert Spitzer.

You have brought up a lot of points, but here is an initial sketch of what I’d say to each:

1. I wouldn’t say that nothing “on earth” (material Universe) points to a supernatural reality. First off, earthly (material things, things in our universe) are contingent, and this fact alone points to, even demonstrates, the need for a non-contingent reality that exits through itself and cannot be the Universe or any part of it.

You may have reasons to reject these sort of metaphysical arguments (we can talk about your specific objections), but the point is, these philosophical demonstrations start with premises that relate to earthly realities – what we experience (like change, potentiality, contingency) – and move on from there.

Having said that, I would also say that science itself can point to the supernatural. You’re right, it can’t demonstrate it. But if we combine scientific evidence of, say, a limit to past time (BVG Theorem, space-time geometries, Big Bang, law of thermodynamics, etc.) with a metaphysical premise (i.e., Out of nothing, nothing comes), then we can get to the point of saying scientific evidence may favor a supernatural basis for physical reality.

1. Your miracle critique is too broad. If there is a God, then miracles can happen, of course. But if you are saying that specific miracles are never actually good indications of the supernatural, then I’d look into some of the officially-confirmed and studied miracles of the Catholic Church, such as those from Lourdes, or Eucharistic miracles, or the fact that the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima was predicted beforehand (or else, why were there tens of thousands there in order to witness it?).

 

[catholic1seeks]

Personally, I would love to believe like I once did, but that’s simply not possible anymore. I don’t, and I can’t bring myself to. It’ll never be the same. And maybe that’s for the best.

TO believe, to have true faith, is a work of God: It is by grace that we have authentic faith.

One can not have true faith and still intellectually assent to theological propositions, such as God exists. But we have to distinguish between the two. You don’t work your way up to faith. So I’d say, if you WANT to believe again, then pray for the grace to believe on the one hand, but also continue to work through these things intellectually.

 

[Hebrews12]

I don’t think you’ll get an answer here that satisfies you. The fact is there are people who look for miracles everywhere and often find them, and there are people who witness miracles every day and refuse to believe. Ultimately it’s called faith for a reason. People either believe or they do not and there’s really no explaining it. If you have come here to measure and categorize and analyze faith you will leave disappointed because it is not something quantifiable. You seem sincere enough that I will type a little more, and though I doubt it will help you, perhaps you will find some small bit of it useful.

I have a very scientific mind, in fact I’m the sort of person nobody would ever think is a man of faith. I speak too much about logic and rationality and skepticism, studied science in college, and keep up on all the latest science news, so even people who know me pretty well outside of Church would not guess that I pray every day and believe in the awesome miracle of transubstantiation. It does often surprise people when they find out that I’m religious, but when I talk about my faith they are often not surprised it comes from a logical place.

The fact is, I think anyone who claims to be a scientist and doesn’t believe in God, at least some god, is a rather poor scientist. Cogito ergo sum, Descartes’ most famous philosophical proposition, would seem to be a good starting point for any belief system. I cannot explain, nor can science, where I and everything else I can perceive with my senses has come from. While it may be a leap of faith to suggest that one’s consciousness is eternal, the fact of one’s consciousness begs for an eternal explanation. If we are able to know anything, it begs the question why is there anything at all to know? Science offers no explanation, nor can it ever. All we can know for certain is that eternity exists because existence without an eternal element defies reason.

I know what you’re thinking: okay, so he explained deism. Well, we’re not finished. I am not a deist, I am a Christian, and what’s more, a Catholic. If I accept that there is an eternal element to the metaverse, or cosmos, or whatever, that gave rise to the universe and everything in it, then it all seems kind of pointless for there not to be a reason for it. I can’t accept a god that cares nothing for us, that popped the universe into something from nothing for nothing. Perhaps there’s a Pascal’s Wager to be had there, too, that it’s better to believe there’s a purpose, if you have to choose between that or purposelessness.

So why Christianity? Well I believe Christianity does in fact have all the answers. It embraces Natural Law, which appeals to my logic. The Golden Rule does too. I can rationally see the ways in which Christian morals create a more ordered, beneficial world. But that’s not faith, that’s just morals, and it’s hardly specific to Catholicism, or even necessarily Christianity.

The fact is the reason for my belief amounts to simply a leap of faith. If I talk of the miracle the Church even exists, you will dismiss that like every other miracle in your life. The miracles I’ve seen, the prayers answered, you will also not believe.

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

The fact is there are people who look for miracles everywhere and often find them, and there are people who witness miracles every day and refuse to believe.

The fact that we live in a society and not a tribe, and therefore do not have the daily worry that another tribe will come wipe us out is a miracle of sorts. The extent to which we have tamed our human nature is phenomenal and anyone who thinks God (literally or conceptually) wasn’t a major contributing factor to that is delusional or poorly educated.

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

Evidence?.. China!

they too had religion, but it seems it didn’t inform their technological advancement so much.

Ni dui zhongguo li shi wen hua de liao jie bu gou.

 

[pocaracas]

Ni dui zhongguo li shi wen hua de liao jie bu gou.

Peace be upon you too, brother!

 

[Entwhistler]

Well, being a cradle Catholic, I’ve always believed. I’ve doubted before though. Most folks who grew up with some sort of religion begin to doubt it when one becomes a teenager. I looked up proofs for God’s existence. Some are are good, some are bad, some are middling. Personally, I would give three reasons that I believe right now. I don’t think any of them on their own would suffice but taken together they do.

1. Aquinas’ Argument from Motion–It’s a somewhat difficult argument to follow mainly because he uses terms that most modern folks are unfamiliar with. But I persevered and looked into it deeply and found it quite convincing. I’ve searched for objections to it and haven’t found any that persuades me in the negative. To be honest, most folks misunderstand it. And I’m not faulting them for that. I had to read it upwards of five times carefully reading it.
2. If There was a point in time in which there was nothing, how did something come from nothing?–Now, some might say there was something before our universe so this argument wouldn’t help much in that case. But I believe that at some point there was nothing. I don’t believe our universe has been around forever.
3. Paschal’s Wager–I know that many don’t find this convincing because how can it make you believe? Well, I don’t use it in that way (and I don’t think Paschal meant it to be used that way either). But with the other two points being convincing for me, I choose to play it safe and believe in God. Paschal’s Wager always works best as a third string argument. When you almost believe, but not quite.

 

[nkelly]

Hi AIPM,

I was raised a Catholic but like a lot of people, I fell away from the faith. I came back to faith after a trip to Lourdes in 2004. My story is here.

In the past few years, I’ve taken an interest in apologetics. When I meet someone whose faith is shaky or non-existent, I take a 3 step approach:

• Show that atheism is self-defeating/inconsistent
• Show that belief in an intelligent Creator is rational
• Show that Christianity is the most plausible form of theism.

Would you like to discuss any of these points?

Regards, Noel.

 

[misstherese]

There is absolutely nothing on earth that points to a supernatural reality.

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Nightshirt of St. Padre Pio bearing blood from scourging
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Undershirt of St. Padre Pio bearing bloody marks on right shoulder (same place where Jesus carried the Cross and most painful)

 

[AIPM1615]

I cannot explain, nor can science, where I and everything else I can perceive with my senses has come from. While it may be a leap of faith to suggest that one’s consciousness is eternal, the fact of one’s consciousness begs for an eternal explanation.

Consciousness is definitely a mystery, at least for now. I know there are metaphysical demonstrations that the “mind” is immaterial, and Dr Edward Feser does a good job explaining them. With that said, I can’t help but wonder if this is, at the end of the day, a “god in the gaps” argument. “We can’t explain consciousness so it must be supernatural/eternal/immortal/etc.” Just my speculation.

I can’t accept a god that cares nothing for us, that popped the universe into something from nothing for nothing. Perhaps there’s a Pascal’s Wager to be had there, too, that it’s better to believe there’s a purpose, if you have to choose between that or purposelessness.

I’m inclined to agree. God as the “first domino” isn’t a compelling argument.

As for Pascal’s Wager… I am less sure.
When Blaise Pascal developed his wager, he had already experienced a profound supernatural vision. He explained that it’s better to believe in God and be wrong than to believe in nothing and be held accountable. Certainly that’s true. But the wager, in and of itself, is insufficient. I can’t make myself believe in something based on fear tactics. Not in my heart. Does that make sense?

So why Christianity? Well I believe Christianity does in fact have all the answers. It embraces Natural Law, which appeals to my logic. The Golden Rule does too. I can rationally see the ways in which Christian morals create a more ordered, beneficial world. But that’s not faith, that’s just morals, and it’s hardly specific to Catholicism, or even necessarily Christianity.

I just finished Chesterton’s Orthodoxy. One part that stood out to me was toward the end. Chesterton pointed out that one might accept the superior Christian morals but reject the supernatural elements (like Thomas Jefferson, who famously cut the theological parts out of his Bible and kept the humanistic morality). He explained why that was wrong.

The miracles I’ve seen, the prayers answered, you will also not believe.

You’re probably right. Shame on me for being like Thomas, but God has never manifested himself to me, and I can’t shake the materialism. It seems that faith, belief in a deity and purpose and eternal life is little more than wishful thinking. The desire for these things is not evidence of their existence. Man I hate depression.

I so badly desire truth but I’m afraid I’m searching for something that doesn’t exist at all. I’m seriously trying to find answers, to figure out what I actually believe and why… perhaps I will, perhaps I’ll never know. What a meaningless and scary thing to spend life “chasing after the wind.” There I go… quoting Ecclesiastes. Nihilism before it was cool. But what else is there?

Thank you @Hebrews12 for the thoughtful post.

 

[Limoncello4021]

I grew up Catholic and was given the gift of faith early on. I’ve always been a believer but every year seem to get more serious and deeper into the faith.
Since I don’t have the experience of not being a believer, it is hard to address some questions. However, it is 100% clear to me that creation is wonderfully ordered, beautiful, mysterious, and that human beings have something beautiful and powerful within them. These things can only come from an all-powerful, all-loving, all-intelligent, all-creative Godhead. It is very hard for me to understand how some people can look around them and assume all of creation just popped out by itself. To me, that would be far more of a crazy fantasy than to postulate God the Creator.

 

[almost2]

Good question .
Jessie deuplantas. Has an interesting testimony
John Paul Jackson also has a testimonial.

Or Blake Healy wrote a book called the Vail. That describes the spiritual realm