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Duesenberg
Guest
I really cannot believe that, unless you’ve only used the term before in front of those who strongly prefer the EF Mass.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
It is not a “Protestant innovation”.
Did you even bother to look up the document?
Did you even bother to look up the document?
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
Better yet, here Inter Oecumenici Instruction on Implementing Liturgical Norms
You can read for yourself.
You can read for yourself.
Yeah. I read it. And yes, it is a protestant innovation. The first people to have services facing the people were Protestants, in the Reformation, several hundred years before Vat II was even thought of.
That is just a fact. There is no getting around it. This is what I mean about people being uncomfortable just talking about this topic.
That is just a fact. There is no getting around it. This is what I mean about people being uncomfortable just talking about this topic.
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Melchior_1
Guest
“It was only in the 8th or 9th century that the position whereby the priest faced the apse, not the people, when celebrating Mass was adopted in the Roman Rite.[7] The new usage was introduced from the Frankish Empire and later became almost universal in the West”
(The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (Oxford University Press 2005 ISBN 978-0-19-280290-3), article “westward position”).
This of course doesn’t include the consecrated religious, some of whom have celebrated facing the people pre-dating the reformation. Our friend Brother JR mentioned in the past that the Franciscans used to, and I believe the Cistercians as well.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
I am only uncomfortable when people use half truths, misrepresentations, and personal agendas against actual Church teaching.
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Debbie_Kono
Guest
Personally, I was brought into the Church in a conservative NO parish (Communion on the tongue only) which also provided a Saturday night TLM Mass. I would go to both. Now I prefer to go to another parish on Sunday’s for TLM. IMO the TLM is much more beautiful and reverent. Last year I was living in Florida taking care of my dying mother and she would only go the a parish close to us…it was horrible IMO. Altar girls, tens of Eucharistic ministers, Protestant hymns. Noisy. Really almost zero reverence. As a sinner myself, I prefer to go to Mass where I am not distracted by a lack of reverence and skimpily clad women. The odds of going to an irreverent Mass are way higher at SOME NO Masses than a TLM.
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Entwhistler
Guest
Hate may be too strong of a word to use but I don’t think it is far from the mark. Some one mentioned resistance to TLM. Maybe a better word there. Most of my life I have attended the OF and I still do attended it here and there. I have no problems with the OF as long as it is celebrated reverently. I have seen resistance from the EF goers towards the OF and the other way around. But I don’t see the reason for being against TLM other than preference. If folks want to have it why can’t they?
Be careful using that term (NO) Someone farther up got very upset by it.
I agree with you. While my personal preference is not actually Latin Mass, I do think that more Latin Mass could only be a good thing. I definitely think that there are a few little things that could be done to make all masses more reverent.
I have to admit, I don’t understand the resistance to it. It shouldn’t really be a controversial topic. I actually think that in 40 years or so there will be much less resistance to it.
I agree with you. While my personal preference is not actually Latin Mass, I do think that more Latin Mass could only be a good thing. I definitely think that there are a few little things that could be done to make all masses more reverent.
I have to admit, I don’t understand the resistance to it. It shouldn’t really be a controversial topic. I actually think that in 40 years or so there will be much less resistance to it.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Statistical analysis and probability; lets say there’s you have 100 OF Masses available, and 10 of them are “bad”. Contrast that with 10 EF Masses, 1 of them are “bad”. Similar ratio, but by appearances alone it looks like one is worse. Perception is greater than reality.
There’s a higher probability of finding a “bad” OF Mass due to the volume of it being offered. If you reversed the volume, then we’d be thinking the EF is more prone to “bad Masses”.
Not to mention the “communications creating a global village” thing. So much easier to spread news of abuses than it was in “the old days”.
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Entwhistler
Guest
Also, in TLM there is a rubric for Every Sing Thing the priest does and says. Stand this way, 27 million signs of the cross here. While in the OF (is it okay for me to say OF?) it is a little more free-flowing.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
Guest
Thats because there are more OF masses than TLM, by the thousands if not millions. I promise, if TLM was the norm and people had to drive for OF and seek it out, people would be just as enraptured by it’s “reverence” too.
As far as I know from my grandparents there wasn’t that much “reverence” back in the day, but grudging complacency to social norms. And lots of random rosary praying during Mass.
Some of the most reverent OF Masses I’ve been to are the “extra” ones added so the young adults in the youth group, typically Lifeteen, can attend. Everyone there knows that the priest is going out of his way. The servers fight to be permitted because demand is so high. Teens dress nicely as well as any others attending. The music ministers are top notch. When something is a rare privilege it just gets held to higher esteem.
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Indyann
Guest
Clare, I did not intend to reply to you. It was a general statement to reply to the tone of this thread. (I am not exactly sure how this new format works yet). I had no intention of singling you personally. Because I am elderly and somewhat home-bound, I have a lot of time on my hands. I read the referred information on another forum or blog. Sorry, it appeared that I was replying to you personally.
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pianistclare
Guest
Whew! Thanks so much for letting me know,
Peace to you dear one!
Peace to you dear one!
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Debbie_Kono
Guest
I will concede to the numbers thing. And I will also say I only have two years’ worth of attending the TLM…but I have never been to a TLM where the people weren’t more reverent than the few (maybe 20 or so) OF Masses I’ve attended outside of my conservative parish. Heck, even my very conservative parish’s OF Masses are less reverent than their TLM Masses. The people are more quite. The hymns are not Protestant. And most of the women veil. It IS different.
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pianistclare
Guest
Reverence is a personal disposition and subject to emotion and feelings.
Christ is present.
THe Eucharist is confected. Mass happens. THIS is what matters.
Things such as veiling, which are no longer required don’t really have impact on people unless they allow such to bother them.
Hymn selection may not be to your personal liking, but that has no impact on the Sacramentality of the Mass.
Both forms are permitted. I don’t know why people just can’t leave it at that.
Christ is present.
THe Eucharist is confected. Mass happens. THIS is what matters.
Things such as veiling, which are no longer required don’t really have impact on people unless they allow such to bother them.
Hymn selection may not be to your personal liking, but that has no impact on the Sacramentality of the Mass.
Both forms are permitted. I don’t know why people just can’t leave it at that.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
Guest
I think because they “see” a difference and make assumptions about the legitimacy of the Mass.
However, this is a flawed proposition because it relies on the observation of a person with their own bias. Like I mentioned above the sheer number of Masses in the OF vs the TLM. The draw of people. But as above, I’ve seen super reverent Lifeteen OF masses that could beat the pants off of any TLM because those there know they are privilaged to attend one and seek it out.
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superblue
Guest
I know first hand of a priest who refuses to do the latin mass, why, I couldn’t tell you, I can only take a guess from knowing the man that it would be too much to learn and cause too much of a hassle for him. But he was always more than eager to fund raise for unimportant things that didn’t have any impact on those in need in the community.
I don’t think that’s the case. I just genuinely believe that there was a richer symbolism and tradition which has been lost to an extent. And I think there is also a greater opportunity for catechesis and evangelisation to be had from a more traditional mass.
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