Why Hostility for the Latin Mass?

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ProVobis said:
I believe one can have reverence at any place of worship. One of the most “reverent” I attended was at a Lutheran memorial service for my niece. And FWIW, I was surprised by the similarity in form between that and of the Catholic Mass.
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Yes. Honestly, there is something amazingly reverent about well-done masses that are part of the Lifeteen program. It seems to me that every last person has a burning desire to be there, especially the teens. I’ve been to TLM low Masses. At some point the teens who’ve gone their entire lives just kind of slink in the pew like any other teen. It’s the parents and the college-age adults who seem most alive and on fire for God.

Which leads me to believe that really, reverence at Mass is about the free will choice to be there and to truly desire it, TLM or OF. When People compare the OF and TLM I wish they’d compare apples to apples–which is, Masses where people truly WANT to be there and make sacrifices to make it happen.

Whenever there is complacancy, respect will begin to slip.
 
Real world is the world of official Church teaching to anyone who is a loyal and orthodox member of the Catholic Church. The real world must be viewed from a Catholic worldview, something that is rare on CAF and most discussion groups.

Also in the real world are people who divert, compromise, innovate, of otherwise do not conform to Catholic Teaching and worldview. Also in the real world is Satan. That is why the mission of the laity, according to the Church, is to sanctify the temporal world.
 
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Xanthippe_Voorhees said:
Whenever there is complacancy, respect will begin to slip.
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Absolutely, I have read of the horror stories of the 40s and 50s long before the OF of today. There were liturgical abuses all over the place, and people tended to avoid the high Mass, at least in the experience of this one priest in England in 1951.

The good 'ol days are never as good as people remember, or as good as people think they were.

And I have seen horrific liturgies in the OF.

On the other end I have seen the most beautiful and reverent liturgies in BOTH the EF and OF. The parish to which I entered the Church gave the most beautiful and reverent OF Mass, just as much so as any EF masses that I have seen.

So what is the common denominator his these horrible EF and OF masses and the common denominator of the wonderful EF and OF masses?

First: The devotion, reverence, and enthusiasm of the celebrant.
Second: The devotion, reverence, and enthusiasm of the faithful.

But the faithful will not be any more devout, reverent, or enthusiastic than the priest. The priest must set the tone, model the grace, show the people that Jesus is really there in the room with them.
 
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BroIgnatius said:
But the faithful will not be any more devout, reverent, or enthusiastic than the priest. The priest must set the tone, model the grace, show the people that Jesus is really there in the room with them.
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Although, I must caveat that a bit. I know quite a few stories of “blah” priests who came into parishes with established Lifeteen youth groups who were VERY resentful they needed to give up their “free” time to say an extra Mass a month. But seeing the youth they experienced a dramatic conversion of heart and realized how amazing it was he could say Mass. Soon enough there was no place he would rather be and he demanded that these Masses be a weekly occurrence.

So, a good and well-fed congregation can feedback and help a priest who’s been very emptied of hope.
 
Vadne said:
Archbishop Bugnini’s legacy is alive and well in the liturgical establishment.
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If this is true, it would make sense for opponents of the Latin Mass to quote him. It is hard to see the benefit of supporters of the Latin Mass quoting him, and similar persons. Is there really a need to persuade more and more people in 2017 to the thesis that bishops have opposed the Latin Mass?

It almost seems that there are 2 goals here:
  1. To spread the Latin Mass, so that more people in 2017 appreciate it.
    and
  2. To make sure people in 2017 appreciate the persecutions Latin Mass supporters have endured.
I almost wonder which goal is higher priority.
 
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Walking_Home said:
Deflecting away from the true enemies/toxic trads of the EF-- does not change – that they are the true enemies of the EF.
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To me, your “toxic trads of the EF” comment is as bad if not worse than anything that has been said up to this particular point in this thread towards the OF Mass. You make it sound like every EF Parrish is infested with these “rad trads.” The Parrish I attend here in Baltimore, National Shrine of Saint Alphonsus Ligouri, is entrusted to the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter and sees none of that. It seems to me that the title of this thread has been borne out by many who have posted here.
 
Mark121359 said:
It seems to me that the title of this thread has been borne out by many who have posted here.
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No, the thread posters are not against the EF itself. For myself, I occasionally attend. But the problem I occasionally find among supporters of the TLM is a high degree of suspicion, to the point it makes their efforts to spread the TLM less effective.

This is similar to what I see in some Fatima publications (I am a moderate Fatima supporter, visit a Fatima shrine a few times a year). But some written or online publications have less about Mary’s genuine call to conversion than they have about exposing the “enemies” of Fatima (or Medjugorje, or others). It almost seems like there is an obsession that somewhere in Catholicism there are people who are insufficiently informed about the struggles and sufferings Fatima supporters, or TLM supporters, have gone through.

(If only people were more aware of how many bishops have opposed the Latin Mass, or the Secrets of Fatima, only then will young adults visit Latin Masses and Fatima devotions). Apparently young adults are dissuaded from the TLM, or Fatima, by their impression that bishops are fine with those things. If supporters can convince people that the pope is anti TLM or anti-Fatima, supposedly that will bring in even more people.
 
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Mark121359 said:
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Walking_Home:
Deflecting away from the true enemies/toxic trads of the EF-- does not change – that they are the true enemies of the EF.
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To me, your “toxic trads of the EF” comment is as bad if not worse than anything that has been said up to this particular point in this thread towards the OF Mass. You make it sound like every EF Parrish is infested with these “rad trads.” The Parrish I attend here in Baltimore, National Shrine of Saint Alphonsus Ligouri, is entrusted to the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter and sees none of that. It seems to me that the title of this thread has been borne out by many who have posted here.
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I’ve been to Mass nearly every week, and sometimes Daily, since I was small. No one in an OF parish ever came out and said I was unwelcome.

However, I’ve attempted to go to TLM (low) masses and been forced away by zealots who thought it was improper for women to wear pants. And that was in 2010ish—so after Pope Benedict encouraged TLM–not a “time of persecution” at all.

I was in a nice sweater and khakis so it wasn’t like I was in bar-hopping ripped jeans.

I’ve been to good TLM offerings. But I’ve still been told that my choice of pants and short(er) hair (just below my ears) was unappealing by a woman so generously offering me tips after Mass as she shuffled her brood around the coffee and pastries. Yeahhhhh I didn’t go to Mass to get guys. It was kinda an “ewww” moment.

So I do think that many of the communities can get very insular and subscribe to very toxic theories on male/female roles.

It’s an issue with any separatist, insular community. I don’t think it’s an issue with TLM alone. But as a woman who basically had to do everything on her own, without a family, many of the ideas were far more hurtful, than say those in Lifeteen who had insular views on music or other really inconsequential parts of life.

Honestly, I don’t mind the EF as a whole. I prefer venacular…but I’d probably make the effort to drive the hour (like I will every so often for an ASL Mass) if the people weren’t so annoying.
 
Wow…that’s really sad. I’m sorry he/she/they said that to you. I can’t imagine even saying anything to anyone regarding their dress or hair length. I hope it is the exception and not the rule.
 
My post has been hidden…but I did not STATE as fact MANY WHO ATTEND THE OF DON’T BELIEVE IN THE REAL PRESENCE. I noted that while in another state and having to attend a parish that was very Novus Ordo the reverence was lacking. Hardly any bowing and virtually no genuflecting and because of the lack of reverence I simply asked the question…do many simply NOT believe in the Real Presence.
 
Debbie_Kono said:
Wow…that’s really sad. I’m sorry he/she/they said that to you. I can’t imagine even saying anything to anyone regarding their dress or hair length. I hope it is the exception and not the rule.
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In my area. No.

Most of those who attend TLM are doing so to escape from the extremely liberal and extremely evil culture. A culture where a medical professional referred to my friend’s uterus as a “clown car” because she had 4 kids in 5 years…and that’s not nearly the worst of it. Where restaurants will suddenly “get busy” when a family with more than 2 kids (3 if they are well spaced). Even chain restaurants are known to basically run off those with an “unacceptable” number of children. Now, yes, one could argue this is about tips–but a restaurant should not be taking a party of 6 adults over a party of 2 adults and 4 kids…but it happens frequently. So understandably most of those who attend TLM tend to do so as an (understandable) escape from a truly toxic civil culture.

It’s a really, really hard place to be, and there are few refuges for people who are good Catholics.
 
But, traditionalists are the only ones who I have seen to call it the “no mass”. Now if traditionalists want to promote the beauty and reverence of the TLM, that is certainly a poor way promote it.
 
I am happy to report that the person to whom I was referring to has had nothing published, nor has he appeared on the radio show, since 2012. I was so disappointed when I read that he was on staff here. This man is just the opposite of a “toxic trad”, he is a “toxic lefty”. I really fear for his soul. At one time, he was a good apologist, but went off the rails a few years ago. Just wanted to clear that up.I am relieved.
 
Xanthippe_Voorhees said:
Most of those who attend TLM are doing so to escape from the extremely liberal and extremely evil culture…
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Yeah, I can see that. If I could turn back the clock to the 1950s, in the Church, the Government, Education, marriage and family, THE MEDIA, I would. But I can’t.

In 2017 I try to figure what, exactly, makes our culture and even parts of all the churches “evil”. I think there is an anti-religious authority tidal wave, mostly from the Left. There isn’t any conversion without respect for authority, whether it be Scripture, Tradition, or one’s current Pope, Bishop, and pastor. I focus on Catholics here, but it goes for others too.

The climate now, mostly from liberals, is I will obey the pope/bishop/pastor only when he is “right” (and I, or my websites, will determine when that is). Obviously this is not obedience at all. Unexpectedly a branch of conservative Catholics developed, supposedly the opposite from the liberals, but coming to the same anti-religious authority mindset. Some of the people who attend the local diocesan TLM are apparently influenced by that movement (as evidenced by questionable speakers and websites they cite, who obey only dead popes and bishops).

This occasional, mild imprudence takes nothing away from the value of the EF. But it makes it easier for liberals in the diocese to dismiss the Whole TLM Thing and easier for moderates to avoid looking into this treasure themselves.
 
commenter said:
This occasional, mild imprudence takes nothing away from the value of the EF. But it makes it easier for liberals in the diocese to dismiss the Whole TLM Thing and easier for moderates to avoid looking into this treasure themselves.
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I think that the issue is that many who are drawn to the TLM are often emboldened by insular thinking, “group think” and other bad behaviors. It’s significantly more than “mild imprudence”

Like I said, I’ve been to parishes I’d even call “evil” and perhaps even having completely illicit Masses. But I’ve never been turned away at the door or told that I was being inappropriate for wearing pants as a woman as I was with TLM.

I don’t think they understand just how much they are sometimes their own worst enemy.
 
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commenter said:
Obviously this is not obedience at all. Unexpectedly a branch of conservative Catholics developed, supposedly the opposite from the liberals, but coming to the same anti-religious authority mindset.
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Nailed it. With the rather wild atmosphere following Vatican II, those who would become the trads distanced themselves from what was going on. Maybe too much. Thankfully, the wild clown Masses rarely happen anymore and things are beginning to quiet down from the OF standpoint. The newer priests tend to be more traditional and the EF goers seem to be returning to center (not the political center mind you). At least that seems to be happening in the traditional Catholic circles that I frequent. I think the FSSP and the other EF priestly fraternities are helping this get going. I now for a fact that the FSSP gracefully left a parish after it found out that it leaned uber-right.
 
Vadne said:
Until you have read Bugnini’s book, which details exactly what he called the Novus Ordo Missae, etc…by the way, a title that was stamped on the cover of the first printing of the, well, Novus Ordo Missae…you are out of your element in discussing this issue.
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Wow, that is truly an uncharitable judgement. It’s also not true. Bugnini’s book isn’t the end all on this matter.

That’s very bad form.
 
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Just out of curiosity, why allow the use of “novus ordo” and particularly “NO Mass” when it offends a notable number of Catholics, especially in light of Pope Bendict XVI giving us the monikers “Ordinary Form” (OF) and "Extraordinary Form (EF) of the Mass? Thanks.
 
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