Why Hostility for the Ordinary Form of the Mass?

[stpurl]

And again I agree, the vast majority of Catholics do not hate valid practices. But, we are flawed humans, and there are always some who go beyond the pale and move from “it’s not my style” to “I hate it, it should disappear”. And we have seen remarks (on both sides) of that ilk right here in this thread. That’s why I remarked on the ‘small percentage’, but it’s a very loud percentage. And again, sheer numbers wise, the hostility of one group outweighs the other.

And it is precisely because most people are reasonable that it’s hard for them to see the hostility being as bad as it is. We try to make excuses for the side that we ourselves like, and we find ourselves thinking that the ‘other side’ has been at ‘more fault’, and then when another exchange comes along, we find ourselves looking more and more to find ‘proofs’ that support our previous judgment.

So if we start off neutral, and then two people argue, and one person gets snarky and the other doesn’t, we can start to think that the snarky one was ‘wrong’. . .even if he or she wasn’t, but just has an unfortunate communication style, or was having a bad day. And then we start to see ‘snark’ in what somebody else on the ‘same side’ says in another post. And pretty soon, any time the topic comes up, we think of one side as all ‘snark and wrong’.

Somebody (probably a psychologist) once said that for every negative experience a person had, they needed to then receive twenty–20!–positive experiences to ‘counteract’ the negative. Food for thought, because if we’ve had one negative kind of experience with somebody on a subject, how often will we get the 20 positives to bring us back to neutral?

 

[Reuben_J]

I hope you understand why I persist. Hate is a strong word for any type of the mass and honestly which I have not encountered personally (those who hate).

People who prefer the OF do not hate the EF, at least from my experience of the little I know. Perhaps from CAF, there are probably those EF goers who would hate the OF, perhaps by their tone when talking about it, I don’t know. But your hypothesis seems to generalize, I would take it more of a personal idea.

I notice you paranthesis the word hate and that’s probably closer.

 

[stpurl]

Right, "hate’ meaning anything from real hate to dislike to ‘meh not my thing’.
Myself, I’ve seen more disdain (if you will) from those who like the OF but think the EF or ‘vetus ordo’ is nothing but a shallow, outmoded fantasy that should hurry up and die, and that those who like it are rigid bigoted hypocrites. And from the people who like the EF at the most I’ve seen, “Gee, I wish that more people were willing to give the EF a try because I’d like them to have the chance to enjoy it”. I think it’s unfortunate that there always seems to be ONE person (on either side) and that person will always say, “But really, the OF is a fake Protestant trick that should be thrown out” (if an EF proponent) and that person will always say, “But really, the EF is a trainwreck that nobody understands and should be thrown out”. Of course both statements are wrong! But then there’s always ‘the second person’ who HAS to come along and say, “How DARE you say the OF is fake! It’s your EF that’s the problem, you and your rigid crew” or “How dare you call the EF unintelligible! It’s your OF with its liturgical dancers and crazy innovations that’s the problem!” and then there’s always the THIRD person who says, “I personally went to the EF and they criticized me for not wearing a skirt and I was in tears and I’ll never go back again” or "I went to the OF and everybody sang Kum ba yah and held hands as we stood around the altar and they never even talk about God’ and pretty soon it’s the same old, “your EF is regressive and evil” and “Your OF is out of control!”

 

[Reuben_J]

Right, "hate’ meaning anything from real hate to dislike to ‘meh not my thing’.
Myself, I’ve seen more disdain (if you will) from those who like the OF but think the EF or ‘vetus ordo’ is nothing but a shallow, outmoded fantasy that should hurry up and die, and that those who like it are rigid bigoted hypocrites. And from the people who like the EF at the most I’ve seen, “Gee, I wish that more people were willing to give the EF a try because I’d like them to have the chance to enjoy it”. I think it’s unfortunate that there always seems to be ONE person (on either side) and that person will always say, “But really, the OF is a fake Protestant trick that should be thrown out” (if an EF proponent) and that person will always say, “But really, the EF is a trainwreck that nobody understands and should be thrown out”. Of course both statements are wrong! But then there’s always ‘the second person’ who HAS to come along and say, “How DARE you say the OF is fake! It’s your EF that’s the problem, you and your rigid crew” or “How dare you call the EF unintelligible! It’s your OF with its liturgical dancers and crazy innovations that’s the problem!” and then there’s always the THIRD person who says, “I personally went to the EF and they criticized me for not wearing a skirt and I was in tears and I’ll never go back again” or "I went to the OF and everybody sang Kum ba yah and held hands as we stood around the altar and they never even talk about God’ and pretty soon it’s the same old, “your EF is regressive and evil” and “Your OF is out of control!”

Frankly, I have not heard or engaged in any kind of talk like that reagarding the mass. And yes, I am still on this planet. I am not saying you are making it up but you maybe come from a place which is not like mine.

It intrigues me though because we come to the mass (mostly) not for those reasons but rather because it is a mass. I’ve heard people commenting on poor homilies but there are also good ones.

Perhaps when people have too much time and being partisan about what type of mass they like and dislike, it tells more of having not been able to utilize the grace that the mass delivers. It tells the sad state of affair we have in our Church if indeed it is true.

 

[stpurl]

Reuben, if I had not had to move to this area from my former home in Virginia due to urgent family need, and thus become a member of this particular parish, I would not have believed this kind of ‘stuck in the 1970s attitude’ (on both sides) could possibly still exist. In my previous parish the OF was reverent and ‘orthodox’ in the sense of attention to the rubrics. The EF, though still about as far away from me at that parish as the current EF parish is from me here was (and is) attracting members because, as the majority of EF attendees are, they were welcoming and happy in service to the Lord --just as the OF members of my former parish were likewise attracting members and happy in service to the Lord.

Unfortunately I am in a situation I never dreamed of and perhaps that accounts for my being so ‘stunned’ that I’m in the situation of a shock victim who seems to ‘parrot’ responses.

I have learned never to discount what people tell me simply based on the notion that, “that’s not what I have experienced, therefore it could not be. They must be mistaken.” True, they could indeed be mistaken --equally true, they might not be. Things seem unbelievable until they happen to us, and then WE are the ones sounding like Cassandra and people greet US with, “oh come on. I"VE never experienced such a thing. You must be mistaken.” I don’t have any animosity toward those people (unless they come right out and accuse me of lying, and even then I’m not angry at them as people, I’m angry at being falsely accused. I do try to separate the ‘person’ from the ‘actions’ as much as I can.) But I can’t and I won’t agree, even for the sake of looking rational and ‘wise’, that something I personally experienced ‘never happens’. I want it to stop happening, and burying my head in the sand wouldn’t be the way to accomplish that.

But I am glad your life is far less complicated, liturgically speaking!

 

[Reuben_J]

Thanks for sharing. I understand what you are trying to say and recognize it as from your experience. If anything, it strikes me what you are saying arises from your own care for the liturgy and from good intention. As I said, I did not doubt you because I know that each parish has its own uniqueness and perculiarities.

Back to the title of the thread - it is certainly something we want to avoid to hear and discuss because it should not happen but then again this is not an ideal world and never has been.

I come from a very big parish, a seat of the archbishop. There are various movements and to some extent it is true that people do being compartmentalized and consequently not very charitable on what the others are doing and practicing. It is uncalled for, but that’s how it is.

Such features do appear more prominent in CAF in term of partisanism, unfortunately with regards to the liturgy, a subject I do not encounter in my personal experience. The reason probably I do not indulge in such talk or that there was no big reason to do so. By the way, I am actively involved in the liturgy in our cathedral which is OF based. People’s expectation is high and it has to be done right, but that’s mostly as far as it goes.

Take care and God bless.

 

[Augustinian]

More and more I’m shocked by the disrespect and outright hostility some here on CAF hold for the Ordinary Form (OF) of the Mass. Have these hateful critics actually taken the time to sit down and review the official rubrics for the OF Mass? Or do they just judge the OF Mass based on their own personal beliefs and preferences?

I would think you would really have to go out of your way to see as vigorous opposition in real life.

The internet provides a voice for folks who would just as soon let their hostility dissipate if they didn’t have this outlet. If they just relied on their circle of friends and acquaintances to reflect back on their hostility, they would probably come to the conclusion sooner rather than later that it isn’t such a big deal and let it be like water under the bridge.

But the internet allows them to contact people with the same concerns easily, and the noise amplifies as the critics fire back at each other. Of course, this phenomenon isn’t confined to Latin and vernacular masses, or even religious topics.

 

[Duesenberg]

I would think you would really have to go out of your way to see as vigorous opposition in real life.

I wouldn’t need to go further than the Divine Liturgy at my EC parish. Hatred for the OF Mass has long been a topic of conversation, along with love for the EF Mass. The DLs rarely get talked about.

The internet provides a voice for folks who would just as soon let their hostility dissipate if they didn’t have this outlet. If they just relied on their circle of friends and acquaintances to reflect back on their hostility, they would probably come to the conclusion sooner rather than later that it isn’t such a big deal and let it be like water under the bridge.

One would hope so, but I do have my doubts with some here that continue to prattle on about the OF Mass in a negative way.

But the internet allows them to contact people with the same concerns easily, and the noise amplifies as the critics fire back at each other. Of course, this phenomenon isn’t confined to Latin and vernacular masses, or even religious topics.

That I agree with.

 

[Ann_Stanton]

In the Fort Worth Diocese, the bishop created St. Benedict parish. It has weekday Mass in Latin. The two Sunday Masses are in Latin. They have 2 priests assigned to the parish. It is possible to have OF parishes and EF parishes in the same diocese.

 

[Duesenberg]

In the Fort Worth Diocese, the bishop created St. Benedict parish. It has weekday Mass in Latin. The two Sunday Masses are in Latin. They have 2 priests assigned to the parish. It is possible to have OF parishes and EF parishes in the same diocese.

Indeed. I think it’s also best when the parish priests celebrate both the OF and EF Masses too…

 

[fullmetalcatholic]

Born in '74 so let me answer you. As a cradle Catholic if it wasn’t for the Tridentine Latin Mass or the Eastern Rites, I doubt that I’d still be Catholic - maybe Greek / Russian / Serbian / Coptic Orthodox, but not Catholic; provided I was religious at all. The reason being is that the Catholic Church in America gets caught underneath the wheel of scandal after scandal so much so that there is reason to believe that many priests and prelates have disconnected themselves traditionally so much so that one cannot see the pedigree leading back to St. Ambrose or St. John Chrysostom. In fact very few Catholic saints who have remarkable stories were ever present at / or celebrated a Novus Ordo Mass. St. Patrick for example, our beloved St. Nicholas, Padre Pio, etc Tradition is part of the Faith no?

 

[Duesenberg]

So the existence of the EF Mass in your eyes somehow mitigates your belief that “the Catholic Church in America gets caught underneath the wheel of scandal after scandal”?

 

[Reuben_J]

So the existence of the EF Mass in your eyes somehow mitigates your belief that “the Catholic Church in America gets caught underneath the wheel of scandal after scandal”?

Truth be told, there are many different type of stories how one can lose or being renewed in the Church, it is a matter of by whom. In their gratefulness by their experiences, understandably, it is the whole world to them. No problem with that becaue it is true for the person concerned. But don’t make that into a poll, hopefully.