Why I am not a Catholic - Romans 14:1-4

[Catholic4aReasn]

Angainor:

Catholicism claims authority to proclaim the truth and attempts to assert that authority on all Christians. This brings me into sharp dispute and debate with it.

God left us people to speak with his authority (Luke 10:16).

I think that people who complain that the Church attempts to assert her authority on all Christians simply have a problem with authority. They’re like spiritual teenagers rebeling against authorityl; “no one can tell ME what’s true and what isn’t”.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[vern_humphrey]

Angainor:

I am violating the very principle I have posted. I admit that. As it says in Ecclesiastes, there is a time for everything.

That doesn’t even make sense. You condemn the Catholic Church, and then expect to escape condemnation for doing the same thing yourself?

Angainor:

Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. Acts 15:1-2a

I’m sure Paul would have much preferred to follow his Romans 14 principle in this instance. I’m sure he would have rather not passed judgement on the weak faith of the men from Judea who believed they needed to be circumcised. He must have had a very good reason for coming into sharp dispute and debate with them.

The difference is, Paul didn’t falsely accuse anyone, as you did the Catholic Church.

Angainor:

Paul couldn’t keep quiet because those men from Judea weren’t content to hold their ideas themselves, the men from Judea claim their own authority to proclaim the truth of the necessity of circumcision and attempted to assert that authority on the Christians in Antioch.

Catholicism claims authority to proclaim the truth and attempts to assert that authority on all Christians. This brings me into sharp dispute and debate with it.

If the Catholic Church is wrong, who can be right?

After all the first Catholics were the Apostles. If they passed on the wrong message, where would one look to find the true message?

 

[april_hosen]

Angainor,
Hi, I havent read this entire forum because it’s really long and I simply dont have the time. SO basing my judgement off of your first post, I think I understand you somewhat. I’m a considering convert. I wish I could say I’m leaning towards converting but there’s always this verse that gets me. It’s Galations chapter 3. Ok its more than one verse. Anyway, it’s my understanding that the Catholic Church believes that you get into Heaven by faith and works. But one day I was skimming through my Bible and this completely struck me.
“Oh, foolish Galations! What magician has cast an evil spell on you? For you used to see the meaning of Jesus Christs death as clearly as though I had shown you a signboard with a picture of Chirst dying on the cross. Let me ask you this question: Did you recieve the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message about Christ. Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away? I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law of Moses? Of course not! It is because you believe themessage you heard about Christ. In the same way, “Abraham believed God so God declared him righteous because of his faith.” The real children of Abraham, then are all those who put their faith in God.”"
-Galation 3:1-6
As you can already see I didn’t quote the whole chapter because it goes on and on with the same idea as you see in the verses 1-6. The thing is I really dont want Paul to chew me out at the pearly gates. In other words I don’t want to be a “foolish Galation”.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Angainor,
Hi, I havent read this entire forum because it’s really long and I simply dont have the time. SO basing my judgement off of your first post, I think I understand you somewhat. I’m a considering convert. I wish I could say I’m leaning towards converting but there’s always this verse that gets me. It’s Galations chapter 3. Ok its more than one verse. Anyway, it’s my understanding that the Catholic Church believes that you get into Heaven by faith and works. But one day I was skimming through my Bible and this completely struck me.
“Oh, foolish Galations! What magician has cast an evil spell on you? For you used to see the meaning of Jesus Christs death as clearly as though I had shown you a signboard with a picture of Chirst dying on the cross. Let me ask you this question: Did you recieve the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message about Christ. Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away? I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law of Moses? Of course not! It is because you believe themessage you heard about Christ. In the same way, “Abraham believed God so God declared him righteous because of his faith.” The real children of Abraham, then are all those who put their faith in God.”"
-Galation 3:1-6
As you can already see I didn’t quote the whole chapter because it goes on and on with the same idea as you see in the verses 1-6. The thing is I really dont want Paul to chew me out at the pearly gates. In other words I don’t want to be a “foolish Galation”.

How about this, James 2,14-17?

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Clearly, faith alone is insufficient – one could not sin greviously and fail to do those things we are commanded to do and hope to be saved, just because he believed.

Neither can one not believe and be saved, no matter how good his works.

You know, of course, there are those who do not hold this – I worked with a couple of guys in Singapore who used to get drunk, visit prostitutes and so on and claim they were “saved” because they “believed.” You know that’s not right!!

 

[Darrel]

Catholic4aReasn:

This is why I could never be Protestant. Protestantism, by its very nature, is pure relativism.

In Christ,
Nancy

This is very true in some respects. Now that I am converting to the CC it becomes so clear. The Protestants use the scriptures, like a politician uses the constitution for personal gain twisting its words.

The whole argument in this thread seems geared to make Catholics doubt there Church over some misquoted scripture. Luther had valid complaints but his way of dealing with them was to sow the seeds of division. Christ made it pretty clear that a house divided against it’s self can not stand.

So here we are hundreds of years later directly watching the church Luther started sowing the very same seeds of division at Catholic Answers.

We all worship the same Christ yet we war over ancient false teachings and silly age old divisions when we should be united in Christ as a true and solid presence in the world. In my life of searching for truth from one prot church to the next I felt confused and frustrated wondering why nothing seemed right and wondering why every church that God created said something that directly reversed the other.

In the end I was shown by God what his Church is, the others are formed from the hands of men.

-D

 

[mercygate]

Angainor:

Catholicism claims authority to proclaim the truth and attempts to assert that authority on all Christians. This brings me into sharp dispute and debate with it.

It makes perfect sense that THE Catholic Church, from which all others who claim to be Christian take their light whether or not they know it, should accept the authority given her by her Lord, despite the dissidence of her wayward children.

If you were Catholic in 1521, a believing Catholic, one troubled by the abuses that triggered Luther’s revolt, but failthful to the teaching of the Church in matters of faith and morals, and if you were in a position of responsibility who was expected to deal with Luther, what would you have done?

I invite you to use all the wisdom of 20/20 hindsight.

 

[Della]

Catholicism claims authority to proclaim the truth and attempts to assert that authority on all Christians. This brings me into sharp dispute and debate with it.

Angainor

Do you realize that Luther was a Catholic? An Augustinian Monk, as it happened. Are you really saying the Church has no right to rule what is right and what is wrong for its membership to believe and practice in matters of faith and morals?

And why are you trying to interpret a Church document you don’t have enough theological training to understand? Do you really think the Church was slipping something by us all by excommunicating one of its own members when that member himself had cut himself off from the Church?

Excommunication is not condemning anyone to hell, you know. It’s only saying that that person cannot receive the sacraments of the Church until he reverses his heretical stance and/or practice. It is a way to let the person know that what they have done is a serious deviation from the truth, passed on from Christ to the Apostles to their successors. Any excommunicated person can be reconciled to the Church by going to his bishop and confessing that what he did was wrong and ask to be reinstated. What is so terrible about that?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Angainor,
Hi, I havent read this entire forum because it’s really long and I simply dont have the time. SO basing my judgement off of your first post, I think I understand you somewhat. I’m a considering convert. I wish I could say I’m leaning towards converting but there’s always this verse that gets me. It’s Galations chapter 3. Ok its more than one verse. Anyway, it’s my understanding that the Catholic Church believes that you get into Heaven by faith and works. But one day I was skimming through my Bible and this completely struck me.
“Oh, foolish Galations! What magician has cast an evil spell on you? For you used to see the meaning of Jesus Christs death as clearly as though I had shown you a signboard with a picture of Chirst dying on the cross. Let me ask you this question: Did you recieve the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message about Christ. Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away? I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law of Moses? Of course not! It is because you believe themessage you heard about Christ. In the same way, “Abraham believed God so God declared him righteous because of his faith.” The real children of Abraham, then are all those who put their faith in God.”"
-Galation 3:1-6
As you can already see I didn’t quote the whole chapter because it goes on and on with the same idea as you see in the verses 1-6. The thing is I really dont want Paul to chew me out at the pearly gates. In other words I don’t want to be a “foolish Galation”.

You’ve made one common error here. The works of “faith and works” that you mentioned is the fruit of the love we have for God, whereas in Galatians Paul was talking about the works of the Mosaic law, specifically circumcision. There were those who were saying one had to be circumcized to be saved. Paul was telling them not to look back to the law of Moses for justification.

The passage you quoted, understood in its proper context, really has nothing at all to do with “faith and works” works.

You’ve been comparing apples and oranges. I hope you’ll still consider converting.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[FCEGM]

In the same way, “Abraham believed God so God declared him righteous because of his faith.” The real children of Abraham, then are all those who put their faith in God.""
-Galation 3:1-6
As you can already see I didn’t quote the whole chapter because it goes on and on with the same idea as you see in the verses 1-6. The thing is I really dont want Paul to chew me out at the pearly gates. In other words I don’t want to be a “foolish Galation”.

April, do you not, though, see the error/danger in putting your faith in YOUR faith? Faith is a gift of God. IOW, we don’t put our faith in the strength of the faith we have, but in the strength of God to supply all that we need for our salvation. He has done this by making us, as St. Peter writes, “partakers of the divine nature,” and this is accomplished through our Baptism into the Life, Death and Resurrection of our Savior, Jesus Christ. He now, through the Holy Spirit, lives and acts through us, justifying and deifying our nature that we may fully participate in the life of Heaven – begun here on earth. Our new nature from grace “elevates our own native potencies to produce supernatural works in accordance with the motion of the Spirit, who animates us and whose power gives to them all the value and merit they possess,” The Mystical Evolution, vol. 1, Fr. John Arintero, O.P.

Remember, Charity, as is Hope, is also a gift of Grace, and if we choose not to live according to Charity our Faith does us little good, as St. James reminds us. If we choose not to participate in the life of heaven begun on earth, either by acts of commission or omission, then it is our loss, the loss of our justification; what was begun by grace was an opening to possibilities of even more grace, now spurned by pride, indolence, lust, etc., all usually springing from a lack of prayer and avoidance of the sacramental life which would strengthen us by grace and build up the Image of Christ within.

The Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ was not just a happening at one particular point that is ever-receding into history to which one must bring one’s faith. It is an ever-present Reality (particularly in and through the Liturgy) and we are called to enflesh that Reality, continuing by grace the Incarnation in and as the One Church, the Body of Jesus Christ. That is why the Church is both Visible (enfleshed on earth with a Visible Head) and Invisible – in the glory of Christ. The Catholic Church is the Church of the Incarnation. God in His great mercy draws us ever-deeper into participation in His Divine Nature, our deification, through Faith, Hope and Charity.

 

[migurl]

I may be asked someday, didn’t you do something when you thought it was the right thing to do? If my only answer is Catholicism told me not to, that is a weak excuse.

Your answer shouldn’t be because “catholicism told me not to” it should be because Christ and the Holy Spirit tol you not to. Do you think that a bunch of old men sit around deciding what rules should exist? Do they decide what is right and what is wrong? NO. The Holy Spirit guides the Pope and anyone else in that kind of position who asks for the guidance. The rules the Catholic church has in place are there because God put them there. The 10 commandments came from God and the other more specific rules came from the 10 and the guidance of The Holy Spirit. Catholics accept the fact that there are absolutes, that is something that is absolutly WRONG and things that are absolutly RIGHT. Whether we believe in them or not, the right or wrongness of them do not change. The CC has been guided to teach what these absolutes are (like contraception is wrong, even if there is a legitimate reason like illness or financial trouble) NO HUMAN BEING CAN CHANGE THE TRUTH. Catholics are guided by tradition, rules and the Holy Spirit and the Church which is guided by God. Wouldn’t you rather listen to someone in connection with God (like the infailable teachings) or would you rather risk your eternal life on listening to your own conflicted soul? I know that there are a lot of bad decisions I might have made if I would have relied on myself, but in consulting the Church I made good decisions. ( I could also understand why there were the right one to make because the cloud of sin and doubt was cleared away by the Holy Spirit.) So, basically I am asking, who do you trust more, yourself or God?

 

[TobyLue]

Vern Humphrey

I asked him the same question.

Don’t hold your breath waiting for an answer.

Oh, but he did answer. See post #24

I am well aware of that, and it gives me no pleasure to do so. However, Catholicism did it first.

In other words, “Hey you did it do me so now I’m gonna do it do you”… Do unto others as they have done unto you???

If Catholicism backs down, so will I.

Hmmm, I seem to remember somewhere that Jesus Christ said “As you have sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world” and “all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me….” So if somebody wants for Catholicism to back down, to me its just like saying, “Hey, Jesus, if you will back down so will I.” The CC gets its authority from Jesus Christ Himself. Where do others who interpret scripture on their own get their authority from?
Let me guess… I think I have heard this time and time again. They get it from the “Holy Spirit”. Or is it a “holey spirit”?

 

[sara888]

Why you are not a catholic is because you never will interpret Matt. Mark, Luke and John, You will only read Romans, Gals, Eph. and take a couple of verses out of context to suit your way of living rather than what the Lord has required us to do as faithfull Christians.

Sara

 

[april_hosen]

vern humphrey:

You know, of course, there are those who do not hold this – I worked with a couple of guys in Singapore who used to get drunk, visit prostitutes and so on and claim they were “saved” because they “believed.” You know that’s not right!!

Hi Humphrey!
I agree, that isnt right by any means. Are those men saved? Who am I to judge? I haven’t done anything like what they have done, but I am just as guilty. All fall short of the glory of God. But I would guess that they aren’t saved. If they did accept Jesus into their hearts I believe, Jesus would change their hearts, and thus change their lifestyle do you agree? My point is that is because of your faith you do works.
Now there’s been a whole lot of bad mouthing about Protestants. Well I’m a Protestant and I have no intentions of bad mouthing you Catholics, so lets agree to be respectful and considerate, and above all else Christ-like to the best of our abilities towards eachother, eh?

 

[vern_humphrey]

april_hosen:

Hi Humphrey!
I agree, that isnt right by any means. Are those men saved? Who am I to judge? I haven’t done anything like what they have done, but I am just as guilty. All fall short of the glory of God. But I would guess that they aren’t saved. If they did accept Jesus into their hearts I believe, Jesus would change their hearts, and thus change their lifestyle do you agree? My point is that is because of your faith you do works.
Now there’s been a whole lot of bad mouthing about Protestants. Well I’m a Protestant and I have no intentions of bad mouthing you Catholics, so lets agree to be respectful and considerate, and above all else Christ-like to the best of our abilities towards eachother, eh?

When you say “because of your faith you do works,” you are absolutely right. Or, as James said

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

No one claims you are saved through works alone – but you can make a pretty good case for saying that one who does no good works has no faith.

 

[Angainor]

Della:

Do you realize that Luther was a Catholic? An Augustinian Monk, as it happened. Are you really saying the Church has no right to rule what is right and what is wrong for its membership to believe and practice in matters of faith and morals?

No, of couse not.

Catholics have the right not to associate with those they disagree with. Lutherans reserve that right as well. That’s what the Lutheran Church is, an association of Christian who have a like-minded understanding of theological issues.

Those Christians associated under the banner of Catholicism take this a step farther. Catholicism insists it is the keeper of the truth on all religious matters. It has the hubris* to speak for the whole of Christ’s Church. Lutherans seek to have their association while also remembering the principles laid out in Romans 14:1-4. Who are we to judge someone else’s servant?

*Someone used this word earlier and I took a liking to it.

 

[estesbob]

Angainor:

I am violating the very principle I have posted. I admit that. As it says in Ecclesiastes, there is a time for everything.Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. Acts 15:1-2a

I’m sure Paul would have much preferred to follow his Romans 14 principle in this instance. I’m sure he would have rather not passed judgement on the weak faith of the men from Judea who believed they needed to be circumcised. He must have had a very good reason for coming into sharp dispute and debate with them.

Paul couldn’t keep quiet because those men from Judea weren’t content to hold their ideas themselves, the men from Judea claim their own authority to proclaim the truth of the necessity of circumcision and attempted to assert that authority on the Christians in Antioch.

Catholicism claims authority to proclaim the truth and attempts to assert that authority on all Christians. This brings me into sharp dispute and debate with it.

The Catholic Chirch does not “claim” the Authority-it was given it by Christ Himself. In the example you given above Paul is speaking for the Cathoilc Church-the Judeans were acting like Protestants

 

[Genesis315]

I know I am jumping in here late, so I hope I don’t repeat anything:

Catholicism only takes a stand on things that are indisputable. In fact, that’s how we know what matters are indisputable and which are not. Some “spiritual” people think the divinity of Christ is a disputable matter. How do we know what is disputable and what is not?

The Church takes no stand on disputable matters

 

[RobNY]

Angainor: Who is to decide what is “disputable?” You? Or the Catholic Church?

 

[Angainor]

Catholic4aReasn:

I think that people who complain that the Church attempts to assert her authority on all Christians simply have a problem with authority. They’re like spiritual teenagers rebeling against authorityl; “no one can tell ME what’s true and what isn’t”.

God made teenagers. While this is sometimes a precarious time, it is not without purpose.

 

[mercygate]

Angainor:

Catholicism insists it is the keeper of the truth on all religious matters. It has the hubris* to speak for the whole of Christ’s Church. Lutherans seek to have their association while also remembering the principles laid out in Romans 14:1-4. Who are we to judge someone else’s servant?

*Someone used this word earlier and I took a liking to it.

It isn’t hubris to accept the job the Lord gives you. It is certainly not hubris for the Church to guard the faith. Servants of Jesus are not “someone else’s servant.”

Even before I converted – or even THOUGHT about becoming Catholic, I perfectly understood that if you are the Catholic Church and believe you are the Church Jesus gave the Keys to, then it’s your JOB to preach the Gospel as you have received it. That’s a perfect no-brainer.

The only way out of it is to deny that the Catholic Church is the Church at all. You really are painted into the corner of believing that the Pope is the Antichrist and the Church is the Whore of Babylon. Otherwise, you have to be Catholic or you’re a hypocrite.