Why I am not a Christian

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#2 Furthermore, even if your argument that because we have a moral compass it must come from a higher being is valid (and it most certainly is not, as my arguments above have demonstrated),
I obviously don’t think that your arguements in the first post demonstrated that there isn’t a higher being responsible for mankind’s overall moral compass.
argument does not prove that the “higher being” is God. It could have been Athena or the Titans or Vishnu or Krishna.
Okay. But all these beings are a type of God, aren’t they?
It could be an extraterrestrial life form traveling between the stars, or time travelers from the future, or beings from another dimension.
Then my arguement would be that God gave the time traveler his overall moral compass. I would also say that the existence of a view of right and wrong probably means that the ET has a soul. 👍
All your argument demonstrates if is true (and it most certainly is not, as I have demonstrated above)
Again you have only demonstrated that your opinion is that there is not a higher power.:p:)
s that there is some intelligence higher than a human being that designed human morality - not specifically the Christian God. It could be anything from aliens to Zeus, and every mythical being in between.
Okay, but it would be a higher power. Correct? So you are open to a higher power, maybe a space alien, having something to do with human morality but not the Christian concept of God.
It is clear that part of your argument includes the idea that if there is no God, then why be moral? Well, you certainly aren’t arguing that you are good because God will punish you if you are not good, right? Is the reason you’re kind to others because you’re afraid God will throw you into the eternal lake of fire forever and ever? Is the reason you don’t go on a murderous rampage because you know that if you do, you might not get to celebrate a billion birthdays with Jesus? No, of course not. You, personally, would be good no matter if you believed in God, reincarnation, Zenu (the intergalatic overlord), or even if you believed in no God or gods. So, I don’t really think you’re arguing that.
Well, I haven’t always been 'good." I did some pretty selfish things in my younger years. 😦 As I grow older I want to obey God out of love for him, not a fear of Hell. I have never really liked Hell and Fire sermons because I don’t like scaring people into obedience.

No, I don’t think that a person who believes in Zenu :pis evil or bad, just mistaken.
Conclusion:
In reality, of course, all you’ve merely offered is that there must be no other explanation for the development of human morality *other *than divine intervention. But that’s really is no more sophisticated than those ancient Greeks when they looked at lightning and incorrectly assumed it must have been divine anger. The development of human morality is a very active topic among evolutionary psychologists, evolutionary biology, archeologists and anthropologists, with thousands of published works investigating how it evolved naturally (e.g., without super-natural intervention).
No, the Greeks thought that there was no rational reason behind a lightening bolt. I think that God uses the physical laws in his work. So, it wouldn’t surprise me if geneticist find a gene for ‘the moral compass’.

I think that God used evolution to bring about life on earth, so saying to negate God’s existence with the fact that his work can be explained by scientists isn’t really going to have much bearing with me personally. It might upset some fundamentalists though.
 
First off Exalt, are you a male or female?
You do realize how ridiculous this sounds to the nonbeliever, right?
Not ridiculous at all. You don’t have to be Catholic or believe in any religion to know natural sex completes the man and masturbation is a release but still frustrates the sexual act - mentally and spiritually.

The Catholic Church is not obsessed with masturbation. It is modern feminism which is obsessed with masturbation and pornography. If the Catholic Church is obsessed with anything (obsessed is a poor choice of words, but let’s use your terminology), the Catholic Church is obsessed with promoting and defending natural vaginal sex.

Apart of Christian marriage is the marriage debt. Because of this Christian marriage is technically illegal in the U.S.

Prostitution is illegal in the US, the marriage debt is illegal in the US, other forms of consensual natural vaginal sex are illegal in the U.S. Instead, pornography and masturbation are promoted to men as a healthy release.

This is almost equivalent to nutrition-less food promoted by Corporate America. Many Americans are over-weight and under-nourished because they feed themselves a diet of high fructose corn syrup, growth hormone laced beef, food drenched in partially hydrogenated oil and aspartame. I guess it is technically food, but is anything but healthy. I am not here to debate the health effects of high fructose corn syrup with the corn industry, GMOs with Monsanto, or aspartame with NutraSweet.

If you don’t realize natural vaginal sex is far more healthier mentally and spiritually for a man, you are probably either a feminized male, a woman, or a pagan/secularist with a modernist (warped) view of sexuality.
 
Well, Scientologists claim that Xenu put thetan-souls into the earth 75,000 years ago, but that doesn’t make it true. Archeologists are working on digs in India recovering ancient artificants pointing towards the very beginnings of “hinduism” that date back to 3000 BCE or so. Judaism, however, has no solid archeological history until much later. There’s no evidence that Abraham or Moses even existed, and even if they did exist at the time it is said they existed, Hinduism was flourishing ages before Judaism had even left the tiniest historical footprint.
Thanks for the link… so many times, people don’t provide their references.
The earliest evidence for *elements of *the Hindu faith dates back as far as 3000 BCE.
Archaeological excavations in the Punjab and Indus valleys (right) have revealed the existence of urban cultures at Harappa, the prehistoric capital of the Punjab (located in modern Pakistan); and Mohenjo-daro on the banks of the River Indus.
Archaeological work continues on other sites at Kalibangan, Lothal and Surkotada.
The excavations have revealed signs of early rituals and worship.
Code:
* In Mohenjodaro, for example, a large bath has been found, with side rooms and statues **which could be **evidence of early purification rites.
* Elsewhere, phallic symbols and a large number statues of goddesses have been discovered **which could suggest **the practice of early fertility rites.
This language is FAR from decisive.
‘elements of’? … I’m sure cavemen worshiped the sun, it wouldn’t be considered the beginning of any Egyptian religion.

People existed in India loooooong before Hinduism was around.
To think they were void of ritual (rites), even for worship, is not logical.
So to see that a ancient cultures in India had a large bath with side rooms and statues … or phallic symbols and statues … is not a big deal.

The article goes on to say that the Aryans brought their religion to India, but that this was not Hinduism … at least not yet.
That religion that was brought to India is no more.
Hinduism exists today … even if it is a mix of or alteration of previous religions.

michel
 
The Christian faith faces a number of crushing logical objections. I can no longer hold it in good conscience. I will outline these objections below:

1.) The Bible is not inerrant, neither factually nor morally:

1.1 Factually:

20th and 21st century Biblical scholarship has shown beyond reasonable doubt that the Bible errs. The character of the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) is entirely different from that of John and the accounts are riddled with inconsistencies. The infancy narratives - to state one notable example - of Matthew and Luke cannot be rationally reconciled (see the census of Quirinius).

It may well be rational to suggest that the Bible is loosely accurate, compiled from eyewitness accounts and adapted to fit the audience, but to suggest that it is accurate to the letter is simply untenable.

1.2 Morally:

Let’s face it, the Old Testament is filled with immoralities. In the Old Testament God is portrayed as a genocidal deity an iniquitous, underhanded master, a senseless murderer who kills children with great floods and commands the extermination of entire peoples. Yes some people will contend that what God allegedly orders is good. But is it?

Take 1 Samuel for instance, God through the prophet Samuel orders that children be massacred. Some Christians no doubt would say that his actions are perfectly moral. Well maybe they are- if God did command them. But how can one be sure that he did? Herein lies the problem, how can God - infinitely separated from man ever infallibly reveal his will without the possibility of doubt. It is certainly immoral if Samuel ordered genocide if there were any room for doubt.

Would the believer today commit this genocide on the word of Samuel, certain as the Bible teaches that he is a prophet of God? Or would doubt creep in? It certainly did for me.

2.) Faith, without some corresponding supernatural experience, is not only unjustified but is immoral.

The famous Clifford lectures conclude that is wrong for everyone, everywhere to form a belief based on insufficient evidence. To me this is clearly the case.

To show that this I will use Clifford’s example - of the ship owner who fails to inspect an unseaworthy vessel. In Clifford’s example the owner of a certain vessel is required to test his ships for seaworthiness before he allows passengers to sail on them. Yet he does not do this, instead he forms a belief by ‘faith’ that the vessel is seaworthy. Is this man not guilty of a most heinous crime? What if his patrons die because of his ‘faith’? I defy the believer to show how Christian faith differs.

In response to Clifford the believer may assert that his faith is justified, as it is formed in him by God himself. Yet what evidence does the believer have for this. Faith merely moves up an order and an infinite regress follows – or a rigid dogmatism, and the believer cannot quell his irrationality.

As a final retort the believer may contend that God produces this faith in him by some special means - a Sensus Divinitatis, and because of this his belief is produced by a reliable belief producing mechanism and is perfectly justified. But really? Does such a faculty exist, surely not. The great diversity of religious belief goes to prove this.
  1. Catholic moral teaching is ridiculous:
3.1 The Catholic teaching on contraception is dangerous, absurd and logically unsupportable.
I defy any serious scholar to produce a valid argument, from plausible premises that proves contraception to be immoral. It simply cannot be done.

3.2 The Catholic teaching on masturbation is equally logically unsupportable, equally ridiculous and puts people under great pressure for no good reason. Again no scholar to my knowledge has produced a sound argument to its detriment – don’t send me links to Aquinas.

3.3 The principle of double effect in some instances seems an absurd way of working around dogmatic rules e.g. in the case of an ectopic pregnancy.

Yet even without these objections (which I believe are crushing and decisive defeaters) Catholic moral teaching is too rigid, it will not change depending on the circumstance, it simplifies where human nature is complex and will not listen to reason. In the end Catholic morality comes down to uncompromising dogmatism, natural law its’ facade.

For these reasons I have renounced my faith. Any comments?

P.S Sorry if my tone is angry - I do not mean to cause offense 😉
provide resources for your absurd claims
 
It is modern feminism which is obsessed with masturbation and pornography.
Feminism is behind the anti-vaginal intercourse agenda 2. Their response is “guys just masturbate… here’s some porn”.

But in the post-Vatican II newchurch, “catholics” don’t believe in defending and promoting vaginal intercourse. “catholics” don’t believe in much of anything. They don’t believe in marriage debt, or that Catholics should structure a Catholic society where marriage and family life can flourish. Now we believe in much better things like the globalist agenda. :rolleyes:
 
I obviously don’t think that your arguements in the first post demonstrated that there isn’t a higher being responsible for mankind’s overall moral compass.
Deb, your response was rather boring. All you basically said was that you don’t think I’m right, with almost no further explanation. You have completely ignored the evolutionary explanation for the origin of the human compass, which is far more rational than the Christian explanation (“Moral law requires a moral law-giver!”).
 
You do realize how ridiculous this sounds to the nonbeliever, right? You’re not even explaining or defending anything, you’re just affirming what the original poster has already said: that the Catholic Church is obsessed with masturbation. Neither have you demonstrated how masturbation is actually harmful.
Not only to nonbelievers…I’m a believer and I’ve never read anything quite as bizarre as that.
 
Deb, your response was rather boring. All you basically said was that you don’t think I’m right, with almost no further explanation. You have completely ignored the evolutionary explanation for the origin of the human compass, which is far more rational than the Christian explanation (“Moral law requires a moral law-giver!”).
You don’t like to answer rebuttals of your claims/opinions, and now you’re basically insulting others when they reply to your posts…haven’t you been on here before? Using another name and email address to register? This all sounds like the usual junk we get from the irritable former Catholics who wnat someplace to vent their issues and don’t want to pay for a therapist!! Or should I ask “Haven’t you been on here long enough”? Perhaps it is time for your to find something more productive to do with your time, unless your purpose for being on here is to be talked out of your newest beliefs??
 
Thanks for the link… so many times, people don’t provide their references.

This language is FAR from decisive.
‘elements of’? … I’m sure cavemen worshiped the sun, it wouldn’t be considered the beginning of any Egyptian religion.

People existed in India loooooong before Hinduism was around.
To think they were void of ritual (rites), even for worship, is not logical.
So to see that a ancient cultures in India had a large bath with side rooms and statues … or phallic symbols and statues … is not a big deal.

The article goes on to say that the Aryans brought their religion to India, but that this was not Hinduism … at least not yet.
That religion that was brought to India is no more.
Hinduism exists today … even if it is a mix of or alteration of previous religions.

michel
All the word “hindusim” means is the religion of India. It’s a word that means everything from the polytheistic tribal traditions of tiny villages to the monothestic, Krishna-centered Hinduism that you might be exposed to if you visited a Hindu temple in the United States. They all have their roots in the places. As I said, “elements of Hinduism” are demonstrably far older than the earliest archeological elements of Judaism. Phallic symbols and statues of women are indeed a very big deal, and though Hinduism certianly went through many stages of development, it’s roots are indeed found five thousand years ago in places like Harappa and Mohenjodaro.

If you’re trying to argue that Judaism is demonstrably older than Hinduism, you’re just plain wrong. Go to your local Catholic college and talk to the Religous Studies professors for more. Do some research. “The oldest lie” is a religion other than Judaism.
 
You don’t like to answer rebuttals of your claims/opinions, and now you’re basically insulting others when they reply to your posts…haven’t you been on here before? Using another name and email address to register? This all sounds like the usual junk we get from the irritable former Catholics who wnat someplace to vent their issues and don’t want to pay for a therapist!! Or should I ask “Haven’t you been on here long enough”? Perhaps it is time for your to find something more productive to do with your time, unless your purpose for being on here is to be talked out of your newest beliefs??
I would be happy to answer any rebuttals. In this case, however, Deb concedes that a moral law might have occurred naturally, which pretty much obliterates her argument that it only could have occurred because of divine intervention. The post was boring because of that! I was expecting a challenging rebuttal, and if you can offer one, I’d be happy to respond to it.
 
First off Exalt, are you a male or female?
Male.
Not ridiculous at all. You don’t have to be Catholic or believe in any religion to know natural sex completes the man and masturbation is a release but still frustrates the sexual act - mentally and spiritually.
The Catholic Church is not obsessed with masturbation. It is modern feminism which is obsessed with masturbation and pornography. If the Catholic Church is obsessed with anything (obsessed is a poor choice of words, but let’s use your terminology), the Catholic Church is obsessed with promoting and defending natural vaginal sex.
Apart of Christian marriage is the marriage debt. Because of this Christian marriage is technically illegal in the U.S.
Prostitution is illegal in the US, the marriage debt is illegal in the US, other forms of consensual natural vaginal sex are illegal in the U.S. Instead, pornography and masturbation are promoted to men as a healthy release.
This is almost equivalent to nutrition-less food promoted by Corporate America. Many Americans are over-weight and under-nourished because they feed themselves a diet of high fructose corn syrup, growth hormone laced beef, food drenched in partially hydrogenated oil and aspartame. I guess it is technically food, but is anything but healthy. I am not here to debate the health effects of high fructose corn syrup with the corn industry, GMOs with Monsanto, or aspartame with NutraSweet.
If you don’t realize natural vaginal sex is far more healthier mentally and spiritually for a man, you are probably either a feminized male, a woman, or a pagan/secularist with a modernist (warped) view of sexuality.
I concede the point that vaginal sex is much more enjoyable and - in the context of a long term relationship - a really valuable and healthy part of a relationship. But when you don’t have that, masturbation doesn’t cause any particular harm. Am I wrong about that? What specific harm does it cause when one masturbates?

(Furthermore, when I said that Catholicism is obsessed with masturbation, I mean that it’s extremely important for young men to abstain from masturbation. That’s a big deal, and a huge struggle, as the many posts on these forums about the subject point towards. I’d bet that 95% of young men who abstain from communion or go to the confessional on a regular basis do so because of their struggles regarding masturbation, even though there’s absolutely zero evidence that masturbation is harmful.)
 
PeterJ - Just a very basic question for you: Do you believe that the words of Jesus as described in the Gospels represents truth?

If so, then maybe your argument is not really so much a matter of faith in God, as perhaps a questioning of the organization of Christanity as developed my man?

I have complete faith in God and the truth of the Gospel, but I have many challenges with the organizational structures that man has created over time in the name of God. My own personal challenge is to discern God’s truth amidst the debris that humans have created in the name of religion.

Good luck to you.
 
Exalt,

The 20th century is indeed the story of atheist leaders like Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, and Mao killing millions. Nietzsche forshadowed this when he wrote in 1886: … the belief that God is dead, “is beginning to cast its first shadows over Europe.” You take God out of the picture and anything goes. The “devils” that Paul Johnson wrote about in modern times were summoned by " an unguided world adrift in a relativistic universe". (Modern Times, pg. 48) Later, Paul Johnson describes Stalin’s rule thus: “A human slaughter on a scale no earlier tyranny had possesed the physical means, let alone the wish, to bring about.” He also describes Stalin as a “master of an autocracy for which, in concentrated savagery, no parallel could be found.” (pg 261) Millions killed by forced famine, and in labor camps. Johnson goes further: “Stalin had acquired a pupil, admirer, and rival in the shape of Hitler, controlling a similar autocracy and planning similar sacrifices to ideology on an even ampler scale. The devils had taken over.” The atheists had taken over. Now you, “exalt” might be a very nice atheist yourself. But history shows that when you take away God on a large scale, the worship of power takes over. And you end up with North Korea. You end up with Stalin. You end up with… devils.

Ishii
 
The Christian faith faces a number of crushing logical objections. I can no longer hold it in good conscience. I will outline these objections below:

1.) The Bible is not inerrant, neither factually nor morally:

1.1 Factually:

20th and 21st century Biblical scholarship has shown beyond reasonable doubt that the Bible errs. The character of the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) is entirely different from that of John and the accounts are riddled with inconsistencies. The infancy narratives - to state one notable example - of Matthew and Luke cannot be rationally reconciled (see the census of Quirinius).

It may well be rational to suggest that the Bible is loosely accurate, compiled from eyewitness accounts and adapted to fit the audience, but to suggest that it is accurate to the letter is simply untenable.

1.2 Morally:

Let’s face it, the Old Testament is filled with immoralities. In the Old Testament God is portrayed as a genocidal deity an iniquitous, underhanded master, a senseless murderer who kills children with great floods and commands the extermination of entire peoples. Yes some people will contend that what God allegedly orders is good. But is it?

Take 1 Samuel for instance, God through the prophet Samuel orders that children be massacred. Some Christians no doubt would say that his actions are perfectly moral. Well maybe they are- if God did command them. But how can one be sure that he did? Herein lies the problem, how can God - infinitely separated from man ever infallibly reveal his will without the possibility of doubt. It is certainly immoral if Samuel ordered genocide if there were any room for doubt.

Would the believer today commit this genocide on the word of Samuel, certain as the Bible teaches that he is a prophet of God? Or would doubt creep in? It certainly did for me.

2.) Faith, without some corresponding supernatural experience, is not only unjustified but is immoral.

The famous Clifford lectures conclude that is wrong for everyone, everywhere to form a belief based on insufficient evidence. To me this is clearly the case.

To show that this I will use Clifford’s example - of the ship owner who fails to inspect an unseaworthy vessel. In Clifford’s example the owner of a certain vessel is required to test his ships for seaworthiness before he allows passengers to sail on them. Yet he does not do this, instead he forms a belief by ‘faith’ that the vessel is seaworthy. Is this man not guilty of a most heinous crime? What if his patrons die because of his ‘faith’? I defy the believer to show how Christian faith differs.

In response to Clifford the believer may assert that his faith is justified, as it is formed in him by God himself. Yet what evidence does the believer have for this. Faith merely moves up an order and an infinite regress follows – or a rigid dogmatism, and the believer cannot quell his irrationality.

As a final retort the believer may contend that God produces this faith in him by some special means - a Sensus Divinitatis, and because of this his belief is produced by a reliable belief producing mechanism and is perfectly justified. But really? Does such a faculty exist, surely not. The great diversity of religious belief goes to prove this.
  1. Catholic moral teaching is ridiculous:
3.1 The Catholic teaching on contraception is dangerous, absurd and logically unsupportable.
I defy any serious scholar to produce a valid argument, from plausible premises that proves contraception to be immoral. It simply cannot be done.

3.2 The Catholic teaching on masturbation is equally logically unsupportable, equally ridiculous and puts people under great pressure for no good reason. Again no scholar to my knowledge has produced a sound argument to its detriment – don’t send me links to Aquinas.

3.3 The principle of double effect in some instances seems an absurd way of working around dogmatic rules e.g. in the case of an ectopic pregnancy.

Yet even without these objections (which I believe are crushing and decisive defeaters) Catholic moral teaching is too rigid, it will not change depending on the circumstance, it simplifies where human nature is complex and will not listen to reason. In the end Catholic morality comes down to uncompromising dogmatism, natural law its’ facade.

For these reasons I have renounced my faith. Any comments?

P.S Sorry if my tone is angry - I do not mean to cause offense 😉
Peter,
The reason you are not a christian wasn’t of your choosing. God has decided what to do with you from the foundation of the world. If it isn’t to much of a chore, I suggest that you read Ehp.1:4
I also want you to know , God is a loving God and wants all to be saved.
God robed Himself in flesh and came down from His heavenly throne to die for the worst of sinners. So your not so bad. He loves you just the same.

There is a lovely verse in Rev.3:20 “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and OPENS the door, I will come in and eat with him and he with me.”:

God is knocking on the door to your heart. Please open your heart to the Lord. He loves you. He died for you. Praise his Holy Name forever,
jean
 
Peter,
The reason you are not a christian wasn’t of your choosing. God has decided what to do with you from the foundation of the world.
I’m confused…and concerned. What do you mean? That God decided Peter is not a Christian?

Yikes!

Please help clarify.
 
Deb, your response was rather boring. All you basically said was that you don’t think I’m right, with almost no further explanation. You have completely ignored the evolutionary explanation for the origin of the human compass, which is far more rational than the Christian explanation (“Moral law requires a moral law-giver!”).
I actually agree that God uses evolution and I think that is pretty amazing.👍 But you didn’t make your case that God doesn’t exists. All you did was provethat** you **don’t believe in God.🤷 I knew that already.😛
 
I would be happy to answer any rebuttals. In this case, however, Deb concedes that a moral law might have occurred naturally, which pretty much obliterates her argument that it only could have occurred because of divine intervention. The post was boring because of that! I was expecting a challenging rebuttal, and if you can offer one, I’d be happy to respond to it.
Somehow you misunderstood my post. I said that God could and probably did use evolutionary process to create us. You don’t seem to understand that God was the creator of the natural laws. You have invented a limit for God that does not exists. An all powerful being can use any process that it wishes to create the universe.
 
You don’t like to answer rebuttals of your claims/opinions, and now you’re basically insulting others when they reply to your posts…haven’t you been on here before? Using another name and email address to register? This all sounds like the usual junk we get from the irritable former Catholics who wnat someplace to vent their issues and don’t want to pay for a therapist!! Or should I ask “Haven’t you been on here long enough”? Perhaps it is time for your to find something more productive to do with your time, unless your purpose for being on here is to be talked out of your newest beliefs??
Thank you for defending me. 🙂

Actually, I think his rudeness is helpful to us. It certainly does not make atheists look pleasant.
 
Peter,
If I can give you proof that the Bible has no erros in it and that it is inspired from God will you seriously consider changing your view about it? 🙂
 
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