Why I Am Not A Roman Catholic

[cazayoux]

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Roman Catholics and others claim this verse was only for The Apostles and ‘particular priests’ with ‘apostolic succession. I think that it is nonsense.

Luke 17:4
4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him."

If the Roman Catholic line of only ‘priests’ being able to forgive sins is correct then this verse must only be for them and not other Christians. After all what would be the point of a Christian ‘layperson’ forgiving someone if they that someone was still going to burn in Hell.

It is most bizarre.

Then I need your help to understand the significance of Jesus breathing on them and telling them to receive the Holy Spirit.

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

michel

 

[mercygate]

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Roman Catholics and others claim this verse was only for The Apostles and ‘particular priests’ with ‘apostolic succession. I think that it is nonsense.

Luke 17:4
4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him."

If the Roman Catholic line of only ‘priests’ being able to forgive sins is correct then this verse must only be for them and not other Christians. After all what would be the point of a Christian ‘layperson’ forgiving someone if they that someone was still going to burn in Hell.

It is most bizarre.

Of course The Roman Catholic line is not correct.

2 Corinthians 5:16-17
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Forgiving others is contrary to the worldly point of view. The world always wants to get even but those in Christ want to turn the other cheek (Not always admittedly) As their view point has changed to that of Christ’s point of view they are able to forgive. As they are one in Christ and Christ has the power to forgive they also have the power to forgive.

Christ gives all Christians the authority to forgive sins and through them being more like him he also gives them the ability to exercise that authority.

To say that only priests with apostolic succession can forgive sins is to say that only priests with apostolic succession are Christians.

At least the Pharisee view has been watered down. The Pharisees didn’t even believe they could forgive sins but it is still wrong.

Fair enough. But if it looks like a duck…

East. Relax. The forgiveness that is particular to the Priesthood is distinct from the forgiveness we are ALL required to give to those who offend us. When I forgive the guy who stole my good leather gloves, I do it for his sake and for my own sake. When forgiveness comes through the Holy Spirit acting in the Church, the penitent is reconciled to God and to the whole Church; this does not preclude his forgiveness of the person offended.

Why would you suppose the Lord decided to breathe on the Apostles so that they should receive the Holy Spirit and tell them that THEY could forgive “whosesoever” sins . . . ?

 

[chris_molter]

There’s a difference between one person forgiving another’s trespasses against *them *and a Priest pronouncing absolution for trespasses against God.

 

[Peter_J]

John 20:23
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Roman Catholics and others claim this verse was only for The Apostles and ‘particular priests’ with ‘apostolic succession. I think that it is nonsense.

Luke 17:4
4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him."

If the Roman Catholic line of only ‘priests’ being able to forgive sins is correct then this verse must only be for them and not other Christians. After all what would be the point of a Christian ‘layperson’ forgiving someone if they that someone was still going to burn in Hell.

So you’re claiming, East Anglican, that if I don’t follow the Lord’s advice in Luke 17:4, i.e. if I don’t forgive my brother when he repents, then the brother goes to hell? Now who’s speaking nonsense?

 

[East_Anglican]

Then I need your help to understand the significance of Jesus breathing on them and telling them to receive the Holy Spirit.

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

michel

My understanding of Jesus breathing on them and saying “Recieve the Spirit” is that at that moment they were born again. As they were born again they could forgive sins, as we are born again so can we.

 

[mercygate]

My understanding of Jesus breathing on them and saying “Recieve the Spirit” is that at that moment they were born again. As they were born again they could forgive sins, as we are born again so can we.

You mean if I come to you and confess that I stole $75 dollars from an open handbag in the theater, you can pronounce absolution?

 

[East_Anglican]

You mean if I come to you and confess that I stole $75 dollars from an open handbag in the theater, you can pronounce absolution?

I would sugest that you pray and confess that you are sorry and repent of it to Christ and then he will forgive you because he is faithful and just to do so accordintg to I John 1:9. then I can pray the prayer of absolution which is in fact the priest asking God to do that very thing.

 

[Soutane]

I would sugest that you pray and confess that you are sorry and repent of it to Christ and then he will forgive you because he is faithful and just to do so accordintg to I John 1:9. then I can pray the prayer of absolution which is in fact the priest asking God to do that very thing.

Are you ordained?By a Bishop with Apostolic Succession?If you’re not,then the above is VERY wishful thinking,friend.I don’t recall our Lord giving YOU the facility to forgive sin.You’re confusing the priesthood of believers with the ministerial priesthood which was created by our Lord in the original Bishops, the Apostles who appointed successors and presbyters(priests)to minister the Sacraments of which the Sacrament of Penance or Reconciliation is one.Christ forgives the sin yes,but through the priest(in personi Christi).“Whatever sins you forgive are forgiven in heaven,whichever sins you retain are retained in heaven” .It is possible through a PERFECT act of contrition for our Lord to forgive mortal sin without the presence of the priest in an EXTREME situation, but as far as a non ordained man forgiving sins that simply is a flight of fantasy.

 

[mercygate]

I would sugest that you pray and confess that you are sorry and repent of it to Christ and then he will forgive you because he is faithful and just to do so accordintg to I John 1:9. then I can pray the prayer of absolution which is in fact the priest asking God to do that very thing.

I’ll bet your bishop would get seriously cranky if you tried that.

 

[East_Anglican]

Are you ordained?By a Bishop with Apostolic Succession?If you’re not,then the above is VERY wishful thinking,friend.I don’t recall our Lord giving YOU the facility to forgive sin.You’re confusing the priesthood of believers with the ministerial priesthood which was created by our Lord in the original Bishops, the Apostles who appointed successors and presbyters(priests)to minister the Sacraments of which the Sacrament of Penance or Reconciliation is one.Christ forgives the sin yes,but through the priest(in personi Christi).“Whatever sins you forgive are forgiven in heaven,whichever sins you retain are retained in heaven” .It is possible through a PERFECT act of contrition for our Lord to forgive mortal sin without the presence of the priest in an EXTREME situation, but as far as a non ordained man forgiving sins that simply is a flight of fantasy.

So Nestorious could do something I can’t? Amazing!

 

[peary]

They have turned the covenant meal into a circus. Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me” but they now do it in worship rather than remembrance. This is because of the medieval superstition called Transubstantiation. As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal. There was no transubstantiation during Seda and there isn’t any during The Eucharist. The gospels do not say that Christ said “This is my blood shed for you” followed by the ringing of bells and the disciples throwing incense towards it. This is because it did not happen. The disciples did not worship Christ as bread and wine. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that just the bread is a full sacrament to the laity but half a sacrament to the presbyters. As Jesus said “Take this all of you.” They disagree with Jesus.

It is not surprising that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the covenant meal because they have also changed the sign of the covenant. Roman Catholics are not only baptised into Christ but also baptised into The Roman Catholic Church. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that having the sign of the covenant is not enough for one to partake of the covenant meal. One also has to be confirmed. (I am not saying confirmation is wrong. I believe it is a powerful service) There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

Another matter concerning the covenant concerns a facet of Christ’s present day ministry. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and as the mediator of the new covenant he is the one mediator between God and man. The Roman Catholic Church disagrees in more ways than one.

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry. They say it is not but if it has feathers and floats and looks like a duck it’s probably a duck. As the second commandment says “you shall not bow to them.” and statues are bowed down to, Roman Catholics break the second commandment.

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

They have invented a whole system of priesthood based on Pharaseeism and the governance of imperial Rome. Jesus clearly said “Do not lord over each other.”

Another matter concerning the covenant is the matter of our redemption. The Bible calls Jesus The Redeemer and Jesus is the only redeemer. The Roman Catholic Church believes that his mother Mary is the co-redemptrix. Jesus is the only redeemer because of his blood which is the blood of the new covenant. His mother doesn’t come into it.

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise. They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name) It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church has also invented the doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, claiming she was sinless. If the logic of the doctrine is taken to its full course then there would have had to have been a whole line of immaculate conceptions until prior to the fall. It is a nonsensical doctrine.

Also because of the covenant we are justified by faith in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church believe we can also be justified by penance, indulgency and good works too. So as under the covenant we are brought by Jesus blood and are saved. Within Roman Catholicism you can buy your salvation off The Church.

Also, because of the covenant Christ took our punishment on The Cross. The Roman catholic Church disagrees. They believe that when we die we must enter a place of temporal punishment called Purgatory. (Unless you buy or someone on your behalf buys an indulgency) The belief in purgatory means that Calvary wasn’t enough and the ultimate objective of Calvary was not achieved. It is a rather nasty doctrine .

The belief in purgatory is yet another medieval superstition. The Superstition is based on an earlier Pagan belief from Plato which went like this. - When you die your soul goes to a place of burning to be purged. After the purging has taken place your soul then leaves that place and is regenerated. After this your soul is put in somebody else.

This belief was adapted to make it fit into Christian thought. The regeneration part had to go because it messed up the belief in Baptismal regeneration and the reincarnation bit also had to go so that you go to Heaven instead. But the rest remained. The origins of the belief in purgatory are purely pagan and do not fit in Jewish or Christian theology.

You need to do some homework. Your points are quite laughable and downright silly.

 

[chris_molter]

So Nestorious could do something I can’t? Amazing!

Yes, exactly. Or are you a Donatist, too?

 

[johnnydigit]

They have turned the covenant meal into a circus. Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me” but they now do it in worship rather than remembrance. This is because of the medieval superstition called Transubstantiation. As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal. There was no transubstantiation during Seda and there isn’t any during The Eucharist. The gospels do not say that Christ said “This is my blood shed for you” followed by the ringing of bells and the disciples throwing incense towards it. This is because it did not happen. The disciples did not worship Christ as bread and wine. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that just the bread is a full sacrament to the laity but half a sacrament to the presbyters. As Jesus said “Take this all of you.” They disagree with Jesus.

It is not surprising that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the covenant meal because they have also changed the sign of the covenant. Roman Catholics are not only baptised into Christ but also baptised into The Roman Catholic Church. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that having the sign of the covenant is not enough for one to partake of the covenant meal. One also has to be confirmed. (I am not saying confirmation is wrong. I believe it is a powerful service) There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

Another matter concerning the covenant concerns a facet of Christ’s present day ministry. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and as the mediator of the new covenant he is the one mediator between God and man. The Roman Catholic Church disagrees in more ways than one.

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry. They say it is not but if it has feathers and floats and looks like a duck it’s probably a duck. As the second commandment says “you shall not bow to them.” and statues are bowed down to, Roman Catholics break the second commandment.

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

They have invented a whole system of priesthood based on Pharaseeism and the governance of imperial Rome. Jesus clearly said “Do not lord over each other.”

Another matter concerning the covenant is the matter of our redemption. The Bible calls Jesus The Redeemer and Jesus is the only redeemer. The Roman Catholic Church believes that his mother Mary is the co-redemptrix. Jesus is the only redeemer because of his blood which is the blood of the new covenant. His mother doesn’t come into it.

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise. They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name) It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church has also invented the doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, claiming she was sinless. If the logic of the doctrine is taken to its full course then there would have had to have been a whole line of immaculate conceptions until prior to the fall. It is a nonsensical doctrine.

Also because of the covenant we are justified by faith in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church believe we can also be justified by penance, indulgency and good works too. So as under the covenant we are brought by Jesus blood and are saved. Within Roman Catholicism you can buy your salvation off The Church.

Also, because of the covenant Christ took our punishment on The Cross. The Roman catholic Church disagrees. They believe that when we die we must enter a place of temporal punishment called Purgatory. (Unless you buy or someone on your behalf buys an indulgency) The belief in purgatory means that Calvary wasn’t enough and the ultimate objective of Calvary was not achieved. It is a rather nasty doctrine .

The belief in purgatory is yet another medieval superstition. The Superstition is based on an earlier Pagan belief from Plato which went like this. - When you die your soul goes to a place of burning to be purged. After the purging has taken place your soul then leaves that place and is regenerated. After this your soul is put in somebody else.

This belief was adapted to make it fit into Christian thought. The regeneration part had to go because it messed up the belief in Baptismal regeneration and the reincarnation bit also had to go so that you go to Heaven instead. But the rest remained. The origins of the belief in purgatory are purely pagan and do not fit in Jewish or Christian theology.

talk about silly. can you say, “emotional resentment”?

this guy is either completely right, or speaking on behalf of the devil. even a child in first communion class can easily pick apart several of his illogical claims.

GET BEHIND ME SATAN!

 

[johnnydigit]

fyi, if you want people to actually give any credit to your opinions, you would at least present the Catholic view and it’s explanations (e.g. with Scripture references), then give the Protestant rebuttal, a few more rebuttals from both sides, then give your final critique. a well ordered presentation can do wonders.

again, a slew of emotional opinions like in your original post just makes you look like an angry child.

 

[peary]

East Anglican isn’t even Anglican. If he/she were, such questions would not be asked. another deception in here, no doubt.

 

[GKC]

East Anglican isn’t even Anglican. If he/she were, such questions would not be asked. another deception in here, no doubt.

I dunno about that. He’s a little extreme, even for fringe reformed Anglicanism, but he also fits the mold, in other places. I take him at his word.

GKC

 

[emeraldcoast]

I would sugest that you pray and confess that you are sorry and repent of it to Christ and then he will forgive you because he is faithful and just to do so accordintg to I John 1:9. then I can pray the prayer of absolution which is in fact the priest asking God to do that very thing.

East Anglican,

Are you an Anglican priest? It one reads the BCP you will find “Another Christian may be asked to hear a confession, but it must be made clear to the penitent that absolution will not be pronounced; instead, a declaration of forgiveness is provided.” Only a priest or bishop may offer absolution. If I am asked as a Christian to hear “John’s” Confession, I must make it very clear that I can offer “John” forgiveness but only a priest can offer “John” absolution.

Please review page 446 of the BCP 1979 regarding the Reconcilation of a Penitent.

God Bless!

 

[GKC]

East Anglican,

Are you an Anglican priest? It one reads the BCP you will find “Another Christian may be asked to hear a confession, but it must be made clear to the penitent that absolution will not be pronounced; instead, a declaration of forgiveness is provided.” Only a priest or bishop may offer absolution. If I am asked as a Christian to hear “John’s” Confession, I must make it very clear that I can offer “John” forgiveness but only a priest can offer “John” absolution.

Please review page 446 of the BCP 1979 regarding the Reconcilation of a Penitent.

God Bless!

Your point is well taken, but I doubt EA has a 1979 book to hand.

I’m American, and I don’t use it, either.

GKC

 

[emeraldcoast]

Your point is well taken, but I doubt EA has a 1979 book to hand.

I’m American, and I don’t use it, either.

GKC

GKC,

What does your BCP say about Reconcilation of a Penitent?

God Bless!

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

They have turned the covenant meal into a circus. Jesus said “Do this in remembrance of me” but they now do it in worship rather than remembrance. This is because of the medieval superstition called Transubstantiation. As the lamb didn’t change within the Old Covenant meal the bread and wine do not change within the new covenant meal. There was no transubstantiation during Seda and there isn’t any during The Eucharist. The gospels do not say that Christ said “This is my blood shed for you” followed by the ringing of bells and the disciples throwing incense towards it. This is because it did not happen. The disciples did not worship Christ as bread and wine. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that just the bread is a full sacrament to the laity but half a sacrament to the presbyters. As Jesus said “Take this all of you.” They disagree with Jesus.

It is not surprising that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the covenant meal because they have also changed the sign of the covenant. Roman Catholics are not only baptised into Christ but also baptised into The Roman Catholic Church. Also The Roman Catholic Church teaches that having the sign of the covenant is not enough for one to partake of the covenant meal. One also has to be confirmed. (I am not saying confirmation is wrong. I believe it is a powerful service) There is no reference to confirmation in The Bible.

Another matter concerning the covenant concerns a facet of Christ’s present day ministry. Christ is the mediator of the new covenant and as the mediator of the new covenant he is the one mediator between God and man. The Roman Catholic Church disagrees in more ways than one.

First of all, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that dead saints can mediate between God and man. Through this the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced by cosmic telepathy with dead saints. If I wanted to talk to the dead I’d go to a séance. But a séance is a Satanic deception as is praying to dead saints. It keeps the people away from Jesus.

Another layer to this is statues being mediators between God and man. This is in fact idolatry. They say it is not but if it has feathers and floats and looks like a duck it’s probably a duck. As the second commandment says “you shall not bow to them.” and statues are bowed down to, Roman Catholics break the second commandment.

Secondly, The Roman Catholic Church teaches that ‘priests’ are mediators between God and man as well. Instead of confessing their sins to God through Christ they confess their sins to a ‘priest’ This is another trick to keep people away from Christ.

They have invented a whole system of priesthood based on Pharaseeism and the governance of imperial Rome. Jesus clearly said “Do not lord over each other.”

Another matter concerning the covenant is the matter of our redemption. The Bible calls Jesus The Redeemer and Jesus is the only redeemer. The Roman Catholic Church believes that his mother Mary is the co-redemptrix. Jesus is the only redeemer because of his blood which is the blood of the new covenant. His mother doesn’t come into it.

Another area where the covenant relationship with Christ is replaced is the area where they worship Mary. When many of them say “Hail Mary” they mean it as the highest form of praise. They spend more time praying to Mary than with Christ. (Though in fact they pray and worship the goddess Diana under another name) It is yet another trick to keep people away from Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church has also invented the doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, claiming she was sinless. If the logic of the doctrine is taken to its full course then there would have had to have been a whole line of immaculate conceptions until prior to the fall. It is a nonsensical doctrine.

Also because of the covenant we are justified by faith in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church believe we can also be justified by penance, indulgency and good works too. So as under the covenant we are brought by Jesus blood and are saved. Within Roman Catholicism you can buy your salvation off The Church.

Also, because of the covenant Christ took our punishment on The Cross. The Roman catholic Church disagrees. They believe that when we die we must enter a place of temporal punishment called Purgatory. (Unless you buy or someone on your behalf buys an indulgency) The belief in purgatory means that Calvary wasn’t enough and the ultimate objective of Calvary was not achieved. It is a rather nasty doctrine .

The belief in purgatory is yet another medieval superstition. The Superstition is based on an earlier Pagan belief from Plato which went like this. - When you die your soul goes to a place of burning to be purged. After the purging has taken place your soul then leaves that place and is regenerated. After this your soul is put in somebody else.

This belief was adapted to make it fit into Christian thought. The regeneration part had to go because it messed up the belief in Baptismal regeneration and the reincarnation bit also had to go so that you go to Heaven instead. But the rest remained. The origins of the belief in purgatory are purely pagan and do not fit in Jewish or Christian theology.

Better watch yourself P, or you’ll be called before the “Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith” to answer for your heresies.