Why I Am Not A Roman Catholic

[jim1130]

actually that is one of the serious errors about the Mass nowadays. it is NOT primarily about community. the Eucharist is more about the sacrifice on Calvary, His true body and blood being present, the worship of God directly in a more vertical structure, while the horizontal structure of being in community is, if anything, secondary. if people knew this, truly believed, and had the reverence for the Eucharist that our holy fathers have been talking about, the community aspect would flow automatically.

my assumption is that this backwards perspective is why it seems like we are failing. protestants seem to do much better because the focus is more on the gathering, so they are able to focus more on what the people want, which unfortunately is often the quality of preaching, music, etc. with us, the source and summit are not these things, it is the actual presence of God coming to meet us, the Eucharist, heaven actually coming down to earth to be with us. it doesn’t matter how bad the preaching is, how bad the music is, or how much money is given. all of Salvation History, all of Creation, the entire Bible, unfolds before our eyes and in our presence. if people don’t see these things, it is just a boring gathering.

forgive me if i am explaining it very poorly, but the deeper you go, the more this becomes apparent, the more God’s splendor and the awesomeness of our faith comes alive 100-fold. when this becomes apparent, the entertaining Sunday service of the non-Catholic becomes a spec of dust in comparison. (although fellowship, praise and worship, Bible study, and community activities are wonderful ways of living the faith outside of the highest form of church worship - the Holy Mass.)

I would substitute “community” with “fellowship,” which seems to be the mantra for most non-Catholic and non-denominational churches. I go to Mass to worship God, not to spend an inordinate amount of time tripping over myself to share the sign of peace (which has gotten WAY out of hand anymore).

Having said that: What irks me about the celebration of the Eucharist is the frequent interruption of the Mass and worship of God toward individuals. For example, this past Sunday during the collection, our pastor called forth a young Cub Scout to recognize him for some charitable efforts,to which the parishoners applauded (well, I did not and neither did my son who follows my lead). This is fairly common. At the end of the Mass before “Go in peace to love and serve the Lord” we are held captive for whatever the pastor wishes to address. Recently our deacon celebrated 10 years and we had several people stand before the parishoners and sing his praises. Now, the deacon is a wonderful person so I do not begrudge him the accolades, but I was not raised in a parish where the Mass was interrupted so that we could recongize parishoners who have been married for 50 years or who are serving in the military or who are moving away. It seems now the Mass is trying to be like the non-denominational to create this bogus sense of fellowship.

 

[Linda777]

Just a small quibble, but no Catholic prays to dead people.

I read of a Mexican man in Mexico who claimed to have seen Mary the mother of Jesus. He died and was canonized as a saint. Now the Catholics in Mexico pray to him, a dead man. I don’t make up this stuff.

 

[emeraldcoast]

I would substitute “community” with “fellowship,” which seems to be the mantra for most non-Catholic and non-denominational churches. I go to Mass to worship God, not to spend an inordinate amount of time tripping over myself to share the sign of peace (which has gotten WAY out of hand anymore).

Having said that: What irks me about the celebration of the Eucharist is the frequent interruption of the Mass and worship of God toward individuals. For example, this past Sunday during the collection, our pastor called forth a young Cub Scout to recognize him for some charitable efforts,to which the parishoners applauded (well, I did not and neither did my son who follows my lead). This is fairly common. At the end of the Mass before “Go in peace to love and serve the Lord” we are held captive for whatever the pastor wishes to address. Recently our deacon celebrated 10 years and we had several people stand before the parishoners and sing his praises. Now, the deacon is a wonderful person so I do not begrudge him the accolades, but I was not raised in a parish where the Mass was interrupted so that we could recongize parishoners who have been married for 50 years or who are serving in the military or who are moving away. It seems now the Mass is trying to be like the non-denominational to create this bogus sense of fellowship.

Such strong words - “bogus sense of fellowship”. Honestly, it sounds to me like a fantastic church family and I am sorry that you don’t seem to appreciate it. Do you really want your son to follow your lead in having this type of attitude?

God Bless!

 

[Linda777]

I’m sorry that your family did not get the guidance they needed. But please don’t lump all Catholics together. We are very blessed in our Parish. We are all about the Bible, we have several weekly Bible studies for all age groups as well as a wonderful Why Catholic study program where we discuss our faith. We work on different ways of praying and reading the scripture. Through all of this we still get the, well Catholics aren’t Christians. Which just makes me sick. I was raised Presbyterian. My husband was willing to leave the Catholic Church for me, something I am so ashamed that I ever suggested. And my church still treated him terribly. But I was welcomed into the Catholic Church with open arms, and they didn’t care if I joined. I did become Catholic 7 years ago and I have more faith now and Christ truly is in my heart now. It’s like nothing I have ever experienced before. I had someone just last week, a person I have been friends with for 13 years, tell me that Catholics aren’t really Christians, but that my husband and I are the exception! I’m not sure how someone who is a Christian can make a blanket statement like that other than to say it is just ignorance. I think we are the only Catholic people she really knows, she’s just believing what others tell her. We are not to judge. And no one will never know what is in the heart of another. But in my experience with the Presbyterian faith, I saw an awful display of “Christian behavior”, far worse than I have ever witnessed in the Catholic Church. Is it fair for me to lump all Protestants together with the closed minded one’s I went to Church with, No. But we have 26 Churches in our town, 1 of them Catholic. They all act like this towards us. Not very Christian like if you ask me. But we just keep praying for them. What else can we do.

Not my family; it was my Catholic brother and sister. My father had to be the most wonderful man I have ever known. His example after he was saved did so much for me in my life. Jeremiah the prophet said that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked and only God knows our hearts. Yes I know this well. I do not judge anyone. But Jesus said that we would know a tree by its fruits.
I am so happy to learn that you read the Bible. It is God’s written word. True… Protestants do not see Catholics as Christians. A Christian is a follower of Christ. If you are following the Lord Jesus then you are a Christian.
I have the attitude that it doesn’t matter to me what others think. I know that God is with me and that is all that matters.

 

[CWBetts]

I read of a Mexican man in Mexico who claimed to have seen Mary the mother of Jesus. He died and was canonized as a saint. Now the Catholics in Mexico pray to him, a dead man. I don’t make up this stuff.

Just because he is dead, doesn’t mean he is unaware. Also when we pray to saints, it isn’t worship. When we pray to saints it to ask them to pray for us and intercede on our behalf. It is exactly the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

 

[LilyM]

Just because he is dead, doesn’t mean he is unaware. Also when we pray to saints, it isn’t worship. When we pray to saints it to ask them to pray for us and intercede on our behalf. It is exactly the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

The point is those who fall asleep in Christ never die - Our Lord promised so. ‘He who believes in me will never die’. Never means never - literally not for a single instant. So those who have fallen asleep in the body are, like Abraham Isaac and Jacob, living and not dead. Again, Our Lord said so, He said that the God of the patriarchs is the God of the living, not the dead.

How then can anyone say they or any of the righteous who have gone before us are dead? Are we then in death to be LESS capable and LESS poweful than we are now? Is all we have to look forward to after death an eternity of deafness, dumbness and muteness, cut off from half of our fellow members of Christ’s body just because they happen to be on earth and we not? Christ is NOT head of two bodies, or a body one half of which can’t see, hear or communicate with the other.

Since they are alive, then of course we can ask them to intercede for us in prayer just as I can ask you or you me. And they can hear us when we ask just as I can hear you or you me! They form a ‘cloud of witnesses’ watching every moment of our earthly race as St Paul said. Witnesses aren’t deaf, dumb and mute, they hear and see what is happening and can communicate to those running the race too.

And you said we didn’t know our Bibles - we know them, including ALL the books that were given to us from Apostolic times, including the 6 you guys don’t pay attention to - which is why YOU haven’t learned the equally scriptural tenet that ‘it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins’. which is in the First book of Maccabees.

Your church and mine (which were both incorporated in Christ’s one Church once upon a time) canonised Maccabees as scriptural in the 390s in the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. And the truly Apostolic faiths - Catholic and Orthodox - have both kept them in their unadulterated Bibles right to this day. Is it in yours - and NOT in the Deuterocanon but the Canon proper as it deserves to be?

 

[twopekinguys]

I read of a Mexican man in Mexico who claimed to have seen Mary the mother of Jesus. He died and was canonized as a saint. Now the Catholics in Mexico pray to him, a dead man. I don’t make up this stuff.

First of all, I believe you are talking about Saint Juan Diego, who had a vision of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Praying to, or through a saint, and asking for their intercession is no different than asking a friend or family member to pray for you.

Everytime you go to the cemetery to talk to mom, dad, grandpa, etc. aren’t you praying to the dead? After all, you are communicating with them, or trying to at least.

A simple way to look at praying to/through a saint is the example I use when I talk about asking for Mary to intercede for me… When I was a teenager, I would ask my mother to ask my father if it was alright for me to use the family car. I did this because I knew my father would almost always do what my mother asked of him. Ultimately, it was my father’s decision, but he valued my mother’s (name removed by moderator)ut greatly.

Remember, those who die in Christ, live with him in Glory.

 

[chris_molter]

I read of a Mexican man in Mexico who claimed to have seen Mary the mother of Jesus. He died and was canonized as a saint. Now the Catholics in Mexico pray to him, a dead man. I don’t make up this stuff.

If he was canonized then we can be sure he’s more alive than you or I at this moment.

 

[Linda777]

LilyM;4410873]The point is those who fall asleep in Christ never die - Our Lord promised so. ‘He who believes in me will never die’. Never means never - literally not for a single instant. So those who have fallen asleep in the body are, like Abraham Isaac and Jacob, living and not dead. Again, Our Lord said so, He said that the God of the patriarchs is the God of the living, not the dead.

But you need Scripture which is God’s word to support praying to dead people. There aren’t any to help you out. We can only come to God through Jesus the Son. Jesus said if you try to climb up another way you are a thief and a robber.

How then can anyone say they or any of the righteous who have gone before us are dead? Are we then in death to be LESS capable and LESS poweful than we are now? Is all we have to look forward to after death an eternity of deafness, dumbness and muteness, cut off from half of our fellow members of Christ’s body just because they happen to be on earth and we not? Christ is NOT head of two bodies, or a body one half of which can’t see, hear or communicate with the other.

This has nothing to do with praying.

Since they are alive, then of course we can ask them to intercede for us in prayer just as I can ask you or you me. And they can hear us when we ask just as I can hear you or you me! They form a ‘cloud of witnesses’ watching every moment of our earthly race as St Paul said. Witnesses aren’t deaf, dumb and mute, they hear and see what is happening and can communicate to those running the race too.

Paul didn’t say we are to pray to any witnesses.
You are simply adding to the Bible.

And you said we didn’t know our Bibles - we know them, including ALL the books that were given to us from Apostolic times, including the 6 you guys don’t pay attention to - which is why YOU haven’t learned the equally scriptural tenet that ‘it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins’. which is in the First book of Maccabees.

I know for a fact we can only come to God through the Son.

Your church and mine (which were both incorporated in Christ’s one Church once upon a time) canonised Maccabees as scriptural in the 390s in the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. And the truly Apostolic faiths - Catholic and Orthodox - have both kept them in their unadulterated Bibles right to this day. Is it in yours - and NOT in the Deuterocanon but the Canon proper as it deserves to be?

I am a member of the body of Christ, not a member of the RCC.

 

[Carjack1]

I am a member of the body of Christ, not a member of the RCC.

The RCC is THE body of Christ.

 

[Linda777]

CWBetts;4410824]Just because he is dead, doesn’t mean he is unaware. Also when we pray to saints, it isn’t worship. When we pray to saints it to ask them to pray for us and intercede on our behalf. It is exactly the same as asking a friend to pray for you.

Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to pray to dead people, or to anyone in heaven or in hell.
Jesus Christ is the only mediator between us and God.
This is Bible.
In fact the Bible condemns talking to dead people.

 

[Linda777]

Carjack1;4414636]The RCC is THE body of Christ.

Saying something doesn’t make it true. You need scripture to support you. The RCC began in 324 when Constantine made “Christianity” legal.
The body of Christ is the members of Christ’s body which is all throughout the world.
Give Bible proof of your statements.
Protestants must have scripture or it is not God.

 

[Linda777]

chris molter;4412128]If he was canonized then we can be sure he’s more alive than you or I at this moment.

You have no scripture for your statement. Give scriptures or it is not even worth considering.

 

[Carjack1]

Saying something doesn’t make it true. You need scripture to support you. The RCC began in 324 when Constantine made “Christianity” legal.
The body of Christ is the members of Christ’s body which is all throughout the world.
Give Bible proof of your statements.
Protestants must have scripture or it is not God.

Who do you think gathered scripture? It wasn’t the Protestants. What did people use beside the bible? They used Tradition and Scripture. Also St. Peter was the first Pope. The RCC was founded by Christ. Anyone else is lacking in the fullness of truth. You are right. Just because you say something doesn’t make it true.

 

[Linda777]

twopekinguys;4411091]First of all, I believe you are talking about Saint Juan Diego, who had a vision of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Yes that’s him. He is not a saint, but a dead man. You have no idea where he is.

Praying to, or through a saint, and asking for their intercession is no different than asking a friend or family member to pray for you.

You have no scripture to support your views.

Everytime you go to the cemetery to talk to mom, dad, grandpa, etc. aren’t you praying to the dead? After all, you are communicating with them, or trying to at least.

That is absurd. I don’t go to cemeteries to talk to dead people. The Bible says the dead know nothing. In the day they die their thoughts perish. I pray to God through Jesus Christ.

A simple way to look at praying to/through a saint is the example I use when I talk about asking for Mary to intercede for me… When I was a teenager, I would ask my mother to ask my father if it was alright for me to use the family car. I did this because I knew my father would almost always do what my mother asked of him. Ultimately, it was my father’s decision, but he valued my mother’s (name removed by moderator)ut greatly.

All you’re doing is giving me your thoughts, notions and ideas and theories. I only believe the written word of God the Bible. Give me scriptures.Your thoughts cannot save anyone.

Remember, those who die in Christ, live with him in Glory.

I don’t know if he died in Christ. I do know he is dead.

 

[Linda777]

Carjack1;4414675]Who do you think gathered scripture?

No one “gathered” scripture. The law was handed down from a fiery mountain to Israel via Moses millenniums ago. The Jews gave us the Old Testament, it is their history. The Jews also gave us the New Testament. It was written in Greek. The RCC had nothing to do with the scriptures and how they got to the world. God gave them to Israel.

It wasn’t the Protestants.

That’s right, it was the Jews.

What did people use beside the bible?

Before the New Testament was written in Greek, the Jews had the Torah, the Prophets, the Writings the Psalms and Proverbs.
They recorded the Patriarchs and the Kings. The RCC had nothing to do with the scriptures. Nothing.
Then when Christ came, he was the Word made flesh. Everything God had to say was in Christ.

They used Tradition and Scripture.

Wrong. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their vain traditions teaching their own commandments instead of his. You are way off. The Scripture then was only the Old Testament.

Also St. Peter was the first Pope.

Not according to Peter if you read his letters.

The RCC was founded by Christ.

Jesus founded Christianity not Catholicism.

Anyone else is lacking in the fullness of truth. You are right. Just because you

say something doesn’t make it true.

All you said is merely your own thoughts with no scripture and no Jewish history.

 

[Carjack1]

No one “gathered” scripture. The law was handed down from a fiery mountain to Israel via Moses millenniums ago. The Jews gave us the Old Testament, it is their history. The Jews also gave us the New TestamentOh. So the Jews believe Jesus is God and wrote the New Testament . It was written in Greek. The RCC had nothing to do with the scriptures and how they got to the world The RCC had everything to do with the bible, in which the Protestants conveniently took out some books from. God gave them to Israel.

That’s right, it was the Jews.Old Testament, yes. The New Testament, was passed down through the RCC and through the Apostles

Before the New Testament was written in Greek, the Jews had the Torah, the Prophets, the Writings the Psalms and Proverbs.
They recorded the Patriarchs and the Kings.You are correct up to this very last sentence The RCC had nothing to do with the scriptures. Nothing. This is where you are wrong. Keep researching.
Then when Christ came, he was the Word made flesh. Everything God had to say was in Christ.So God doesn’t speak any Christians today? Interesting

Wrong. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their vain traditions teaching their own commandments instead of hisThe Pharisees had van tradition. The RCC has Tradition, passed down by the apostles. Big difference. You are way off. The Scripture then was only the Old Testament.The RCC preserved what is now the bible

Not according to Peter if you read his letters.

Jesus founded Christianity not Catholicism.Jesus founded Catholicism, which is Christianity. It is the Original and Full Christianity. Luther popped up 1500 years after our Church.

All you said is merely your own thoughts with no scripture and no Jewish history We don’t worship Scripture. We worship God who created the Scripture and the Tradition. .

 

[tmac1956]

Yes that’s him. He is not a saint, but a dead man. You have no idea where he is.

You have no scripture to support your views.

That is absurd. I don’t go to cemeteries to talk to dead people. The Bible says the dead know nothing. In the day they die their thoughts perish. I pray to God through Jesus Christ.

All you’re doing is giving me your thoughts, notions and ideas and theories. I only believe the written word of God the Bible. Give me scriptures.Your thoughts cannot save anyone.

I don’t know if he died in Christ. I do know he is dead.

Linda:
It sounds as though you believe in soul sleep… is this correct?

 

[theistgal]

You have no scripture for your statement. Give scriptures or it is not even worth considering.

Sure we do. You just don’t accept our interpretation of them.

How about Matthew 22:32 - “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living”?

 

[Linda777]

theistgal;4414932]Sure we do. You just don’t accept our interpretation of them.

How about Matthew 22:32 - “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living”?

Taking scriptures of of their context doesn’t count. Jesus was referring to his power to resurrect the dead. He was speaking of the resurrection and of his power to raise the dead. In other words he told of them after they are resurrected.

**Eccl: 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. **

And I could give you many more scriptures that prove the dead are dead. Jesus hasn’t resurrected anyone yet.