Why I believe many Gays turn away from the Church.

[saveusfromhell]

The question “Why” has tried to be answered…even answered by some of us who have close gay friends…answered by those of us who have sat with them and shared their pain as they relay their experiences…some of their experiences are absolutely heartbreaking…we’ve tried to offer some insight THEY THEMSELVES RELAY…yet from some of the responses as to the “Why…” all I see is further rejection of the idea that perhaps the fault might lay on some of the shoulders of “Christians”…but it seems to accept that burden…that cross…on “your” shoulders…is much too painful to bear…or even contemplate…and the “Why…” some of us have relayed to you in answer to the question posed in the title of this thread is out right rejection of the possibility “you” may have caused in “gays turning away”…it’s so easy to tell gay people they must carry their cross…when no cross is accepted on “our” part of their feelings of rejection.

what?

 

[CopticChristian]

Disagreeing with homosexual behavior isn’t hate…but many Catholics and Christians hate gays…I would say that a whole lot of people on this board hate gays whether they believe it or not. I guarantee that a LOT of people on these boards, if they saw two men holding hands and maybe giving each other an innocent kiss on the lips, would get upset and show serious resentment towards them. That is hate in my opinion.

Interested,

We don’t speak the same language. What is hate in your opinion needs to be understood in light of what you believe love to be. Here is the Catholic Encylopedia definition of Hate.

Hatred in general is a vehement aversion entertained by one person for another, or for something more or less identified with that other. Theologians commonly mention two distinct species of this passion.

One (odium abominationis, or loathing) is that in which the intense dislike is concentrated primarily on the qualities or attributes of a person, and only secondarily, and as it were derivatively, upon the person himself.

The second sort (odium inimicitiae, or hostility) aims directly at the person, indulges a propensity to see what is evil and unlovable in him, feels a fierce satisfaction at anything tending to his discredit, and is keenly desirous that his lot may be an unmixedly hard one, either in general or in this or that specified way.

This second kind of hatred, as involving a very direct and absolute violation of the precept of charity, is always sinful and may be grievously so.** The first-named species of hatred, in so far as it implies the reprobation of what is actually evil, is not a sin and may even represent a virtuous temper of soul. In other words, not only may I, but I even ought to, hate what is contrary to the moral law. **Furthermore one may without sin go so far in the detestation of wrongdoing as to wish that which for its perpetrator is a very well-defined evil, yet under another aspect is a much more signal good.

For instance, it would be lawful to pray for the death of a perniciously active heresiarch with a view to putting a stop to his ravages among the Christian people. Of course, it is clear that this apparent zeal must not be an excuse for catering to personal spite or party rancour. Still, even when the motive of one’s aversion is not impersonal, when, namely, it arises from the damage we may have sustained at the hands of others, we are not guilty of sin unless besides feeling indignation we yield to an aversion unwarranted by the by the hurt we have suffered. This aversion may be grievously or venially sinful in proportion to its excess over that which the injury would justify.

When by any conceivable stretch of human wickedness God Himself is the object of hatred the guilt is appallingly special. If it be that kind of enmity (odium inimicitiae) which prompts the sinner to loathe God in Himself, to regret the Divine perfections precisely in so far as they belong to God, then the offence committed obtains the undisputed primacy in all the miserable hierarchy of sin. In fact, such an attitude of mind is fairly and adequately described as diabolical; the human will detaches itself immediately from God; in other sins it does so only mediately and by consequence, that is, because of its inordinate use of some creature it is averted from God. To be sure, according to the teaching of St. Thomas (II-II:24:12) and the theologians, any mortal sin carries with it the loss of the habit of supernatural charity, and implies so to speak a sort of virtual and interpretive hatred of God, which, however, is not a separate specific malice to be referred to in confession, but only a circumstance predicable of every grievous sin.

 

[CopticChristian]

Sorry, this is actually the opposite. Everyone is born an atheist and then is taught religion. The fact that you think it is the other way around is absolutely laughable.

You really think that if a child never heard of God and you asked them “do you believe there is an all powerful being that is watching over everyone and judges you when you die” that they would say “of course…how could I not come to that conclusion.”

Everyone is born an atheist. And if religion wasn’t taught then there wouldn’t be such a correlation between the religion of parents and their children.

Interested,

I don’t recall having any system of thought as a child that would be called Atheistic. I just did not know about things and experienced them while being taught. You are wrong that we are born with a system of thought called Atheism.

Atheism is that system of thought which is formally opposed to theism. Since its first coming into use the term atheism has been very vaguely employed, generally as an epithet of accusation against any system that called in question the popular gods of the day. Thus while Socrates was accused of atheism (Plato, Apol., 26, c.) and Diagoras called an atheist by Cicero (Nat. Deor., I, 23), Democritus and Epicurus were styled in the same sense impious (without respect for the gods) on account of their trend of their new atomistic philosophy. In this sense too, the early Christians were known to the pagans as atheists, because they denied the heathen gods; while, from time to time, various religious and philisophical systems have, for similar reasons, been deemed atheistic.

 

[Publisher]

what?

It’s easy to answer that the reason gay people walk away is because “they” can’t or won’t do XYZ…it’s not an easy thing to bear that burden on our shoulders and consider perhaps they don’t “walk” away…but we drive them away…not an easy cross for us to bear…is it?

 

[CopticChristian]

It is a protestant point of view that slavery is wrong? Paul had a whole letter to condemn slavery and didn’t. Actually I don’t think slavery was condemned in the Bible at all. How can you not say that the Bible got it wrong?

Interested,

Have you heard the Savage vs Brown debate?

Read my writing again…

**He appears to have been poorly Catechized. **
This is my opinion and I base this opinion on what I heard in the Brown vs Savage debate…

He says things like…concerning slavery “The bible got it wrong”…
When you see something in quotations, it means that I am not saying it, someone else is saying it and here I pointed out that Savage says this in reference to Slavery. He uses this to say…if the Bible got Slavery wrong…then the Bible got Homosexuality wrong…

**well that is a Protestant point of view and not a Catholic point of view providing insight into Savage’s warped mind. **
This is my opinion and inference based on Savage’s reasoning, ie the Bible alone…

Now when you start your posting with this…

It is a protestant point of view that slavery is wrong?

It is clear that you did not read, understand, or perhaps are not familiar with Sola Scriptura…

Do you want to rethink this?

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

so people who don’t agree with you live in a hick area. even if its a city, its a hick city if it disagres with your views. thats a very intolerant view of people who don’t agree with your view of the world

Similar to the statement that Catholics and Christians hate homosexuals. That is a huge group of people (77 million Catholics in America alone) of whom you are assuming most of them hate homosexuals? Not counting protestants and other Christian denominations? This would be similar to saying most priests molest children. Or most Protestants belive in “once saved always saved.”

The Catholics in line with the Church teachings (sadly, not all of them are) support the Church’s position that we are called to be Christ’s ligth to all God’s children. And, once again, the presence of a same-sex attraction does not cancel out one being a child of God. We don’t support their sinful actions but we love their souls and wish for them to be in Heaven.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s easy to answer that the reason gay people walk away is because “they” can’t or won’t do XYZ…it’s not an easy thing to bear that burden on our shoulders and consider perhaps they don’t “walk” away…but we drive them away…not an easy cross for us to bear…is it?

Publisher,

Who bears the cross? This is nothing more than the Prodigal son. The father remains and the child departs. The child is always welcome back. What father does not want his child to return? God never turns his back on you, it is we that turn our back on God. They drive themselves away.

 

[saveusfromhell]

It’s easy to answer that the reason gay people walk away is because “they” can’t or won’t do XYZ…it’s not an easy thing to bear that burden on our shoulders and consider perhaps they don’t “walk” away…but we drive them away…not an easy cross for us to bear…is it?

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.** They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided**. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition." (C.C.C. # 2258)

not to do as is highlighted in bold from the ccc would be sinful but if you mean that catholics won’t accept that their homesexual relationships are okay then its they that leave, because they want to make God in their own image. as those anyone who refuses to stay because they find our teachings are not what they want. but as some one pointed out there is many faiths that accept these relationships and each has free will to choose. may God have mercy on us all

 

[andrewstx]

In my experience with those gay and lesbiam people I am acquainted with, they are not ignorant of the disdain they get from “Christians”. Just a cursory read of this thread gives a very “telling” message as to why gay people walk away from the church. Quite simply, the ARE NOT loved…they ARE NOT afforded the dignity and compassion from “Christians”.

Their motives are slandered. They are called “selfish”…“disordered”…“abominations”…they are told they are going to hell. They are ostracized, called “child molestors”…“depraved destroyers of marriage and family”…“destructors of society”…none of which could stand up in the scrutiny of even being remotely examples of “love”. Who said something to the effect “truth without compassion is brutality”? Gay people ARE brutalized by those who claim to follow Jesus of Nazareth…why on God’s green earth would anyone wish to subject themselves to such abuse?

Most gay men and lesbian women deal with rejection and abuse from family, friends and society EVERY DAY as it is. Why would they wish to enter a place of supposed sanctuary where the love and mercy of God’s grace is not exibited towards them…yet it is claimed that it is?

To the point of the previous few posts…they also are very aware of the hypocricy within the church that for the most part embraces those straight people “living in sin” without the same vitrol being heaped upon them…why? Because a great number of your straight people would walk too…no doubt the church has it’s stance on divorce and remarriage as well as same sex marriage…BUT gay people are very much a small minority who are seeking marriage as compared to those straight people in your midst who officially are outside the doctrinal confines of human sexuality as gay people are…but with little or no consequence…oh there may be a cursury mention behind closed doors…annulment processes may be in place to help recitify some of the illicit relationships among straight people…but for the most part a blind eye is turned and very little is done in comparison toward straight people to make the straight feel just as unwelcome as gay people are made to feel…even though gay people are the very smallest percentage of those on the “outs” when it comes to sexual conduct.

I have attended MCC with some gay friends several times…as one sits in the congregation and observes, you can always tell who the new-commers are. When the invitation is given to receive the eucharist, many are in tears if not open sobbing as they walk to the alter rail to receive communion…oh…and yes I know according to Catholics it’s not the “real eucharist”…but I doubt if those going forward to recieve the body and blood of Christ has that thought crossing their minds…what they hear is “This is the Table of the Lord…He welcomes all at his Table, no one will be turned away, come and receive healing for your wounded heart, your broken lives” It is a very moving scene to watch men and women of “former faith” for the first time in years to hear that they are loved by God.

No, gay people don’t walk away because they “refuse to give up their lifestyle”…“are selfish”…they walk away because their hearts yearn to be loved and healed…and they’re not going to get it in church from their all to painful experience.

Friend I have attended the big MCC/United Church of Christ in Dallas with my gay cousin. He had to flee his smaller city to"come out" his dad was so violent and anti everything.

I tried to be open minded and was doing well until it came communion time. I winced to see same sex couples holding hands while being communed.

Really at that MCC the point was more about praying over the couples, while the actual communion seemed unimportant and almost secondary.

In my church the highest experience is receiving the body and blood of Christ, period. Perhaps they could have been prayed over at a different point? BTW they hugged and kissed the minister while she was praying over them.

Receving the body of Christ as they think it is should always come first. I think at least at that MCC/UCC gay came first, gay politics, gay rights came first. But I think in any church God should come first.

 

[Seeker1961]

Before many gay young people even admit their orientation to themselves, they hear what the adults in their lives think about it. What are they hearing? What attitudes are being expressed?

Before I admitted my orientation to anyone, I knew really well who was “safe” to talk to about it and who wasn’t. I knew who would be repulsed and who would honestly love and help me.

It all comes down to thinking a little bit more about how we express ourselves, and this isn’t just about gay people, it’s about everything. If it were directed at you, or someone you loved, would you use those words? Would you make that comment or comparison?

 

[Publisher]

Publisher,

Who bears the cross? This is nothing more than the Prodigal son. The father remains and the child departs. The child is always welcome back. What father does not want his child to return? God never turns his back on you, it is we that turn our back on God. They drive themselves away.

The Father always remains the loving and welcoming One…the one who awaits for the son and runs to meet him as He sees him “while still a way off”…I’d think the better comparison for those in the church would be of the older son…who was angry at the Father for showing such love to the returning son.

I would think it would be a difficult cross to bear to realize that perhaps the reason gay people left the church would be because of the way they were treated…spoken about…received…disdained…it must be, no post I’ve read on this thread wants to bear any portion of responsibility they may have had in driving off our gay brothers and sisters from perhaps one of the best places to find a kind word, a warm hug, a prayerful heart, an unconditional love…a heavy cross indeed.

 

[CopticChristian]

The Father always remains the loving and welcoming One…the one who awaits for the son and runs to meet him as He sees him “while still a way off”…I’d think the better comparison for those in the church would be of the older son…who was angry at the Father for showing such love to the returning son.

I would think it would be a difficult cross to bear to realize that perhaps the reason gay people left the church would be because of the way they were treated…spoken about…received…disdained…it must be, no post I’ve read on this thread wants to bear any portion of responsibility they may have had in driving off our gay brothers and sisters from perhaps one of the best places to find a kind word, a warm hug, a prayerful heart, an unconditional love…a heavy cross indeed.

Publisher,

The son as you recall left to eat with swine…and when those that return no longer eat with swine to dine at the table of the Father they are welcome…I agree that there may be some that will say…I was obedient, I was moral, I followed all your rules…why are you treating this son so well…and it is because…

That child once lost was now found…returned to be with Father and the other son to be obedient, moral, following all the rules…

 

[interestedman]

so people who don’t agree with you live in a hick area. even if its a city, its a hick city if it disagres with your views. thats a very intolerant view of people who don’t agree with your view of the world

Do you understand what societal norms means? It sure doesn’t seem like it.

 

[interestedman]

Interested,

I don’t recall having any system of thought as a child that would be called Atheistic. I just did not know about things and experienced them while being taught. You are wrong that we are born with a system of thought called Atheism.

Atheism is just a disbelief in God. Since no one is born with a belief in God, everyone is born atheist.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

I don’t know. I feel that many practising homosexuals who believe, rather than leave the church, just interpret or work around the beliefs that prevent them doing their sexual acts.

It’s also wrong to assume that if you meet a homosexual atheist they left their religion because of their sexuality. I mean, some people aren’t even taught a specific religion when they’re young, and other folk may leave their religion for other reasons.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher,

The son as you recall left to eat with swine…and when those that return no longer eat with swine to dine at the table of the Father they are welcome…I agree that there may be some that will say…I was obedient, I was moral, I followed all your rules…why are you treating this son so well…and it is because…

That child once lost was now found…returned to be with Father and the other son to be obedient, moral, following all the rules…

Perhaps…but before the father even knew why the son was walking down that road…before the son ever confessed…ever asked for forgiveness…the father ran to him and embraced him…maybe it’s a Quaker “thing”…we have what is call “Queries” to help facilitate our spiritual formation…we ask questions of ourselves privately and in Meeting…“Did I act in a loving a kind manner and share the love of God?” “Do I take responsibility for the pain I may have caused to “the least of these” and seek reparation?” “Do I recongnize my own failings?” As we do so, we reflect in worshipful Silence to seek to discern the Word of God Spoken to our hearts…sometimes Silence is needed to Hear that “Still Small Voice”.

Seeing oneself…asking questions of what our responsibility is as community when one of us hurts…or leaves…is a difficult thing to do.

So, I would ask a few Queries…“What responsibility do we bear in our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters leaving our churches?” “How can we facilitate a healing and nurturing spirit in our faith communities to draw them back and at least dialog with them and understand their hurt and pain and aloneness?” “How can we insure they feel welcome without compromising our beliefs?” "What must we do to share the love of God? “How have we not displayed and exhibited that love?”

As with most Queries, it is not necessary for a verbal response…but a Response to God and find out how to live these answers we find in community and our world.

 

[CopticChristian]

Atheism is just a disbelief in God. Since no one is born with a belief in God, everyone is born atheist.

Intereted,

You are stuck in your own mind. To not believe in something is to believe in something. What you are saying is that a child is born with a belief that is disbelief.

 

[CopticChristian]

Perhaps…but before the father even knew why the son was walking down that road…before the son ever confessed…ever asked for forgiveness…the father ran to him and embraced him…maybe it’s a Quaker “thing”…we have what is call “Queries” to help facilitate our spiritual formation…we ask questions of ourselves privately and in Meeting…“Did I act in a loving a kind manner and share the love of God?” “Do I take responsibility for the pain I may have caused to “the least of these” and seek reparation?” “Do I recongnize my own failings?” As we do so, we reflect in worshipful Silence to seek to discern the Word of God Spoken to our hearts…sometimes Silence is needed to Hear that “Still Small Voice”.

Seeing oneself…asking questions of what our responsibility is as community when one of us hurts…or leaves…is a difficult thing to do.

So, I would ask a few Queries…“What responsibility do we bear in our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters leaving our churches?” “How can we facilitate a healing and nurturing spirit in our faith communities to draw them back and at least dialog with them and understand their hurt and pain and aloneness?” “How can we insure they feel welcome without compromising our beliefs?” "What must we do to share the love of God? “How have we not displayed and exhibited that love?”

As with most Queries, it is not necessary for a verbal response…but a Response to God and find out how to live these answers we find in community and our world.

Publisher,

The Church is…people are…people choose to do things…The Church provides information for the Faithful to accept or reject…

**So, I would ask a few Queries…“What responsibility do we bear in our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters leaving our churches?” **
The answer to this is none. Motion requires a thought and an action…to stay or to leave is a choice.

** “How can we facilitate a healing and nurturing spirit in our faith communities to draw them back and at least dialog with them and understand their hurt and pain and aloneness?” **
The answer is to wait for their return after they choose to stop dining with swine. We listen and show compassion in their return.

** “How can we insure they feel welcome without compromising our beliefs?” **
The answer is to wait patiently with our arms open wide. No one can change the mind of a sinner…only the sinner with the grace of God can “change his mind” or repent…to repent is to change your mind.

**
"What must we do to share the love of God?**
We must be steadfast and not waiver, just like God…who does not waiver or bend to our will…we bend to His Will.

** “How have we not displayed and exhibited that love?”**
This then requires a definition of love…To love is to will God to another for God alone is good…and to do this we do this in thought and action…you cannot accept the sin of another and believe that you are willing God to another.

 

[BroomWagon]

Atheism is just a disbelief in God. Since no one is born with a belief in God, everyone is born atheist.

Then that’s why when they find remote tribes of people or even the Native Americans, they worship a higher being?

That said it is complex, I heard some people have been found to have a religion of Animism, it takes some study but I don’t think everyone is born an atheist by any extent.

 

[BroomWagon]

Here is an official Roman Catholic website for those who have same sex attraction.

couragerc.net/

I’ve looked at it before, didn’t really get a good understanding of it.

I’ve found a similar one for the Jewish religion as well before.