Why I Can't Be Catholic

[Tantum_ergo]

Tris, you have to go deeper. We say a nonChristian ‘may’ (not will, not must) be saved and that IF that person is saved it is through Jesus through the Church (the ultimate source, of course, being Jesus who has determined it to be this way).

The teachings of many Protestants narrow down or create false dichotomies because they insist on taking things out of the context in which they were written --not only the particular circumstances for the person writing the Scripture, but also for the DIVINE context. IOW, they substitute themselves and their own often contradictory and changeable interpretations for God’s truth, and they have absolutely no authority but themselves and their ‘feelings’ and ‘perceptions’ . . .which can be flat out wrong.

 

[Departed_Light]

It’s not just feeling. It’s truth. And Catholics neglect so many parts of the Bible. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Catholic speak about, oh, say Romans 11. Hebrews 10:11. Also,Catholics believe Muslims and Jews and anybody can go to Heaven, despite Christ saying that if you do not believe on Him, you have no life in you. The truth is, no Christ, no life. Catholicism is becoming more worldy (go figure…) from what I see. If the people of the old Catholic church saw the people of today’s Catholic church, the old would excommunicate the new…I can’t join a church which throws out God’s Word for traditions of men. And that’s what they are. Sacred Tradition is tradition in line and based on Scripture.

Apparently, I’m too stupid to read God’s Word…even though He had it written in man’s language for man to understand…

Tristan – easy now. Remember that we are in the Catholics house. This is a Catholic forum and this area is dedicated to Traditional Catholics, which from their posts tells me they are generally very dedicated Catholics.

The Catholic path has its own scenery. If you can’t enjoy that scenery then you can’t and so be it.

Be glad that the faithful Catholic sees and responds to God as best he can. Rejoice that the faithful Catholic receives Christ. It is not my or your job to convict anyone, that’s The Holy Spirit’s job. Our job is to show love in all circumstances.

In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way where I am going. – John 14:2-4

His peace upon you.

Instead of trying to express your feelings, speak your conscience. The conscience is something Catholics respect. A conscience is formed and it is not as fleeting as a feeling. I understand you.

 

[Malkin71]

Tristan – easy now. Remember that we are in the Catholics house. This is a Catholic forum and this area is dedicated to Traditional Catholics, which from their posts tells me they are generally very dedicated Catholics.

The Catholic path has its own scenery. If you can’t enjoy that scenery then you can’t and so be it.

Be glad that the faithful Catholic sees and responds to God as best he can. Rejoice that the faithful Catholic receives Christ. It is not my or your job to convict anyone, that’s The Holy Spirit’s job. Our job is to show love in all circumstances.

In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way where I am going. – John 14:2-4

His peace upon you.

Instead of trying to express your feelings, speak your conscience. The conscience is something Catholics respect. A conscience is formed and it is not as fleeting as a feeling. I understand you.

Very well put! I agree.

 

[JRKH]

It’s not just feeling. It’s truth. And Catholics neglect so many parts of the Bible. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Catholic speak about, oh, say Romans 11. Hebrews 10:11. Also,Catholics believe Muslims and Jews and anybody can go to Heaven, despite Christ saying that if you do not believe on Him, you have no life in you. The truth is, no Christ, no life. Catholicism is becoming more worldy (go figure…) from what I see. If the people of the old Catholic church saw the people of today’s Catholic church, the old would excommunicate the new…I can’t join a church which throws out God’s Word for traditions of men. And that’s what they are. Sacred Tradition is tradition in line and based on Scripture.

Apparently, I’m too stupid to read God’s Word…even though He had it written in man’s language for man to understand…

Whoa Whoa Whoa buddy - - - Your going to give yourself whiplash going on like this.

In your OP you asked for help concerning praying to the saints. To which you received many fine Christian responses.
Next you posted that you would Love to become catholic but you see some apparent contradicitions between the Bible and the Teachings of the Church. Again we have tried to give you good solid answers that allow you to truly and prayerfully investigate and understand how the teachings of th eChurch and the Bible interact and support each other.

Now you come out with a seemingly hostile post (I hope I have merely misread it) about how catholics ignore parts of the Bible etc. which, of course, is not true. If you wish to address any issues about Romans or Hebrews please feel free to raise them and the folks here will be glad to address them.
For example, Justaservant is a good resource for you. He was a Baptist minister and is now a Catholic.
As a help to you on the sections you mentioned I can say that Hebrews 10:11 refers to the Jewish priests who, even after the resurection of Jesus ended the Old covenent, continue to offer the old sacrifice. As to Romans, it is a long chapter and I don’t know what your issue is with it.

If you are serious in learning about the Catholic Church I suggest you read the Catechism, as well as consider the points provided here on this thread.

Peace
James

 

[kage_ar]

Please pick up a copy of this:

books.google.com/books?id=pJ9x64Gbh9AC&pg=PT1&dq=romans+ignatius+study+bible&ei=WGWySoizC46QNcntlIUE

This is a great study of the book of Romans.

 

[TristanCross]

Man, I’m done. Sorry, really. But I can’t do this anymore. I really can’t.

 

[Departed_Light]

Man, I’m done. Sorry, really. But I can’t do this anymore. I really can’t.

 

[JRKH]

Man, I’m done. Sorry, really. But I can’t do this anymore. I really can’t.

Tristan,
I am sorryif we have overwhelmed you.
Please know that you are in our prayers.
Continue seeking.

Peace
James

 

[JustaServant]

It’s not just feeling. It’s truth.
Who’s truth? The truth of God? Or a lay person trying to interpret the Bible?

And Catholics neglect so many parts of the Bible.
Catholics hear the Bible read every Sunday. Many parishes have Bible studies. There are Catholic Bibles with commetaries, a Catholic Cathechism with TONS of scriptural referances. Negleting? The Catholic Church GAVE you your Bible.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Catholic speak about, oh, say Romans 11. Hebrews 10:11.
I have, many times. Are you looking?

Also,Catholics believe Muslims and Jews and anybody can go to Heaven, despite Christ saying that if you do not believe on Him, you have no life in you.
Not true.

The truth is, no Christ, no life. Catholicism is becoming more worldy (go figure…) from what I see. If the people of the old Catholic church saw the people of today’s Catholic church, the old would excommunicate the new…
Oh…I see. You are looking for the perfect church/group. Good luck. You need to read more history. There have never been perfect people nor a perfect age.

I can’t join a church which throws out God’s Word for traditions of men.
Again, the Catholic Church GAVE YOU and PUT TOGETHER your Bible at a time in history when most communication was done orally. You are aware books were not available until the last 5- 600 years? The Catholic Church does not ‘throw out’ a Bible they READ EVERY SUNDAY MORNING.

And that’s what they are. Sacred Tradition is tradition in line and based on Scripture.
The Bible is not given to private interpretation. If you want proof of that open up your yellow pages and count the number of denominations in your area.
Quite a bit of ‘private interpretation’ going on.

Apparently, I’m too stupid to read God’s Word…even though He had it written in man’s language for man to understand…
**Where is the authority to interpret? **

 

[JustaServant]

Man, I’m done. Sorry, really. But I can’t do this anymore. I really can’t.

A simple read through your posting history over the last month and a half reveals you becoming increasingly hostile.
I assume you are an adult. If you do not want to be Catholic, then you made your point. But why the hosility? Something isn’t adding up here.
We will be praying for you.

 

[AskSeekKnock]

I understand where TristanCross is coming from. I’m on that same walk myself. I can’t speak for him, and I certainly don’t mean to overtake his thread with my own ramblings, but I know that the thread to this point has been helpful to me, and if he is still reading along perhaps this would not be a diversion but likewise helpful?

Forgive me for prying, but is there something you would have to sacrifice to be Catholic? Are you afraid of giving it up?

In the Protestant church there is joy and peace and assurance. If you accept Christ as Savior and Lord, you are taught you will spend eternity in heaven, and furthermore - you can be confident now, today, and every moment up to and including your death, that when you die Jesus will be there waiting for you, as He has promised. You are supposed to try hard not to sin, and to serve God and fellow man, but it is expected that you will fall short, because that is the nature of man, to be a sinner, and each and every time Christ will forgive if He is Your Lord and His Father will forgive in His name. No amount nor number nor timing of sins could take from you your inheritance in Christ if He is your Lord.

In the Catholic Church, there is a list of mortal sins which I thought would include things that are easy to avoid - like murder, prostitution, thievery. But the list is long and deep and includes “thought sins” that are harder to control - I admit mean, petty, selfish, off-color and impatient thoughts pop into my head (seemingly unbidden) all the time. On a daily basis, for sure. And yet if I die without the opportunity for fresh Reconciliation - such as in a car crash, sudden heart attack, or other event without warning - even if my last Confession was just an hour before my death, nothing will save me from eternity in hell. Suddenly I’m afraid of laughing at even a slightly dirty joke forwarded in email and wondering whether being Catholic means having to email all my friends and ask them not to send anything not entirely pure lest I commit a mortal sin and not make it to Confession before my death. The Catholic Church may not demand actual perfection, being that it ‘allows’ venial sins, but I fear what it does require is more than I can achieve.

I long for the Truth; I also long for assurance of being saved from hellfire. And right now I don’t know how to tell what “feeling” in me is the Spirit drawing me to Christ and what is my own self-serving and erroneous sin.

 

[franklinf]

…

In the Catholic Church, there is a list of mortal sins which I thought would include things that are easy to avoid - like murder, prostitution, thievery. But the list is long and deep and includes “thought sins” that are harder to control - I admit mean, petty, selfish, off-color and impatient thoughts pop into my head (seemingly unbidden) all the time. On a daily basis, for sure. And yet if I die without the opportunity for fresh Reconciliation - such as in a car crash, sudden heart attack, or other event without warning - even if my last Confession was just an hour before my death, nothing will save me from eternity in hell. Suddenly I’m afraid of laughing at even a slightly dirty joke forwarded in email and wondering whether being Catholic means having to email all my friends and ask them not to send anything not entirely pure lest I commit a mortal sin and not make it to Confession before my death. The Catholic Church may not demand actual perfection, being that it ‘allows’ venial sins, but I fear what it does require is more than I can achieve.

I long for the Truth; I also long for assurance of being saved from hellfire. And right now I don’t know how to tell what “feeling” in me is the Spirit drawing me to Christ and what is my own self-serving and erroneous sin.

About those “thought” sins - I think you have an erroneous view. Mortal sin requires full consent. It is not the initial thought that is sin, it is what you do afterward. For example, lets say a beautiful girl walks by and an image of lust pops in your mind. Right then and there you aren’t in mortal sin. It is what you do next that counts. If you push the thought out of your mind and move on, then you resisted temptation and committed a virtuous act rather than a sinful one. IF however you dwell on the thought and progress in the fantasy, then you are committing mortal sin.

To simplify:

1. Bad thought enters
   2a) Push out of mind - Good
   2b) Dwell on it - Bad

Another thing, please do not turn away from the Church because you are afraid of sinning. Not being a member doesn’t excuse you from sin or hellfire. It is much better to have the sacraments at hand. Christ gave them to us for a reason.

Hope this helps and please keep praying and learning about the Catholic Faith. Its always a joyous occasion to have another person “cross the Tiber” and join HMC.

 

[JRKH]

I understand where TristanCross is coming from. I’m on that same walk myself. I can’t speak for him, and I certainly don’t mean to overtake his thread with my own ramblings, but I know that the thread to this point has been helpful to me, and if he is still reading along perhaps this would not be a diversion but likewise helpful?

I too hope that Tristan is still lurking. Perhaps reading the conversation from the “sidelines” will be helpful.

In the Protestant church there is joy and peace and assurance.

Same as in the Catholic Church.

If you accept Christ as Savior and Lord, you are taught you will spend eternity in heaven, and furthermore - you can be confident now, today, and every moment up to and including your death, that when you die Jesus will be there waiting for you, as He has promised.

Same as in the Catholic Church. Just remember that Confidence is not the same as guarenteed.

You are supposed to try hard not to sin, and to serve God and fellow man, but it is expected that you will fall short, because that is the nature of man, to be a sinner, and each and every time Christ will forgive if He is Your Lord and His Father will forgive in His name.

Same as in the Catholic Church.

No amount nor number nor timing of sins could take from you your inheritance in Christ if He is your Lord.

Similar to the Catholic Church. I note in this above you omit a reference to the severity of sin that you raise below.
Also I will note to you that, the statement above is a dangerous one in that it can cause the weak to fall into the trap of feeling they do not need to change their lives all that much. I understand that this is not your intent in the above, yet I have seen it first hand where some “Christian” doesn’t worry avoiding sin because of a, “God already forgave me”, mentality.

In the Catholic Church, there is a list of mortal sins which I thought would include things that are easy to avoid - like murder, prostitution, thievery. But the list is long and deep and includes “thought sins” that are harder to control - I admit mean, petty, selfish, off-color and impatient thoughts pop into my head (seemingly unbidden) all the time. On a daily basis, for sure. And yet if I die without the opportunity for fresh Reconciliation - such as in a car crash, sudden heart attack, or other event without warning - even if my last Confession was just an hour before my death, nothing will save me from eternity in hell.

franklinf already addressed this and I hope it helps. At least it gives a “jump off” point for further discussion. For further help I would suggest you look at this from the Catachism

Suddenly I’m afraid of laughing at even a slightly dirty joke forwarded in email and wondering whether being Catholic means having to email all my friends and ask them not to send anything not entirely pure lest I commit a mortal sin and not make it to Confession before my death. The Catholic Church may not demand actual perfection, being that it ‘allows’ venial sins, but I fear what it does require is more than I can achieve.

We, need to look at sin differently, It’s not a set of rules like civil laws where some get fines and others get you tossed in jail and others get life in prison. That is the Old Covenent way of looking at things.
Sin is a turning away from God. It is thinking and acting in a way that is contrary to the Law of Love. Love of God and Love of neighbor. The more one realizes the gravity of sin, the more culpible one is. When one realizes this small sins become just as offensive to you as big ones. So it may well be that you SHOULD ask your friends not to send you offcolor humor anymore. Take a look at the prayer in my signature. Pray often and measure your actions against this standard. Are you doing all things for the Love of God?

In the case of a mortal sin, just as with a venial, the first and most important step is to renounce the sin, ask for God’s forgiveness and commit to getting to confession as soon as possible. By so doing you have met all that is necessary to assure salvation if you die before you are able to get to confession.

I long for the Truth; I also long for assurance of being saved from hellfire. And right now I don’t know how to tell what “feeling” in me is the Spirit drawing me to Christ and what is my own self-serving and erroneous sin.

This will be a struggle all our lives. Continue to pray. Spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Perhaps even talk to a priest about getting set up with a spiritual councilor.

Hope some of my rambling helps.

Peace
James

 

[TristanCross]

I’m back…

I am 16, if anyone was really wondering…Just a stupid man dreading Christ’s Coming.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

As a nonCatholic Christian, I personally feel so much freedom. I feel happy, full of God, and peaceful. I feel safe and secure in Jesus Christ. Confident and prepared for His coming.

But as a Catholic, I feel scared. I feel agony, fear, anxiety, worry, etc. I feel like I’m dishonoring God by talking to other heavenly creatures.

Is it not right to go with my conscience? Or would it be better for me to live a life in constant fear?

Since you feel so good you are not doing it right.

Being a Catholic and a follower of Jesus is not meant to feel good all the time.

I heard this on yesterday’s (Wednesday’s) homily on the Mass on EWTN. It is appropriate to your situation and I am glad I can use it. It is not verbatim as Fr. Jacques preached it and I intend to write his version down.

This Jesus Challenges Me.

I use force, and He says “Forgive.”
I am afraid, and He says “Take heart.”
I doubt, and He says “Trust.”
I feel anxious, and He says “Be calm.”
I desire to be left alone, and He says “Come, follow me.”
I make my plans, and He says “Let’s go this way.”
I want security, and He says to me “You will be persecuted for my sake.”
I want to live, and He says “Give your life.”
I believe I am a good person, and He says “That’s not enough.”
I want to be in charge, and He says “Serve.”
I want to give the commands, and He says “Obey.”
I want to understand, and He says “Believe.”
I want clarity, and He speaks to me in Parables.
I want poetry, and He speaks of Realities.
I want tranquility, and He wants me To be disturbed.
I think of revenge, and He says “Turn the other cheek.”
I speak of peace, and He says “I have come to bring a sword.”
I want to hide, and He says “Let your light shine.”
I seek out the first place, and He says “Sit in the last place.”
I want to be seen, and He says “Pray in secret.”
I want to hang on, and He says “Let go.”
I want to win, and He says “Surrender.”

No, I don’t understand this Jesus. He provokes me. He confounds me. Like many of His disciples I, too, think I would like to follow a different teacher; one who would be more clear, and who would ask less of me. But it is as true for me as it was for Peter. When Jesus asked the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” Simon Peter answered, “Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

Author unknown

You see, you are doing it wrong.

Come on over to our side and do it right for a change.

Eddie Mac

 

[JRKH]

I’m back…

I am 16, if anyone was really wondering…Just a stupid man dreading Christ’s Coming.

Thank you for sharing that Tristan. It helps us all to better understand your position.

Please understand that we do not wish to overwhelm you or to scare you. We truly do wish to help.
It is a blessing and a curse that on the internet you can get so many responses so quickly and from very different people. By that I mean that each of us writes in a certain way and sometimes different ways clash.
The best advise I can give on this is to not try to absorb everything all at once.
Pick a specific item and look into it. For instance - the inercession of the saints, or the history of the Church/Bible. Then when you are comfortable with that piece move on to the next.

I think the most important thing for you to do is to be patient with yourself. Remember that we ALL are works in progress for Our Dear Lord.

Peace
James

 

[Departed_Light]

I understand where TristanCross is coming from. I’m on that same walk myself. I can’t speak for him, and I certainly don’t mean to overtake his thread with my own ramblings, but I know that the thread to this point has been helpful to me, and if he is still reading along perhaps this would not be a diversion but likewise helpful?

In the Protestant church there is joy and peace and assurance. If you accept Christ as Savior and Lord, you are taught you will spend eternity in heaven, and furthermore - you can be confident now, today, and every moment up to and including your death, that when you die Jesus will be there waiting for you, as He has promised. You are supposed to try hard not to sin, and to serve God and fellow man, but it is expected that you will fall short, because that is the nature of man, to be a sinner, and each and every time Christ will forgive if He is Your Lord and His Father will forgive in His name. No amount nor number nor timing of sins could take from you your inheritance in Christ if He is your Lord.

In the Catholic Church, there is a list of mortal sins which I thought would include things that are easy to avoid - like murder, prostitution, thievery. But the list is long and deep and includes “thought sins” that are harder to control - I admit mean, petty, selfish, off-color and impatient thoughts pop into my head (seemingly unbidden) all the time. On a daily basis, for sure. And yet if I die without the opportunity for fresh Reconciliation - such as in a car crash, sudden heart attack, or other event without warning - even if my last Confession was just an hour before my death, nothing will save me from eternity in hell. Suddenly I’m afraid of laughing at even a slightly dirty joke forwarded in email and wondering whether being Catholic means having to email all my friends and ask them not to send anything not entirely pure lest I commit a mortal sin and not make it to Confession before my death. The Catholic Church may not demand actual perfection, being that it ‘allows’ venial sins, but I fear what it does require is more than I can achieve.

I long for the Truth; I also long for assurance of being saved from hellfire. And right now I don’t know how to tell what “feeling” in me is the Spirit drawing me to Christ and what is my own self-serving and erroneous sin.

Thank you ASK - this was so well put. You said what I was thinking but I could never have put it down on paper like that.

Catholics please, please don’t read this as snippy. The list thing that A.S.K. is talking about is a major stumbling block for me as well as I am sure many other Christians. It is a sin leading to death and hell if you don’t go Mass every Sunday? Or if you miss Mass on one of the special days (sorry I don’t know what they are called but I think the various Marian Feasts are examples – “obligation days” ? or something like that)

Being a Christian should be freeing and joyous! It is liberating. When I seriously look at Catholicism I see no problems with the Church’s explanations of the doctrines which she holds, but the actual practical application of Catholicism for me is just oppressive. Where is the joy that surpasses all understanding if you have to worry about every action you do and what you need and don’t need to confess? Where is the freedom in Christ if you have to worry about the rubrics of worship – you can’t use glass to hold Communion wine – who cares? Catholics do. Why? What does it matter? The Church says it matters so it does. This stuff makes my head swim.

I too understand where Tristan is coming from; shoot I am there myself to some extent.

 

[Departed_Light]

I’m back…

I am 16, if anyone was really wondering…Just a stupid man dreading Christ’s Coming.

Glad you’re back, mate

 

[manualman]

As a nonCatholic Christian, I personally feel so much freedom. I feel happy, full of God, and peaceful. I feel safe and secure in Jesus Christ. Confident and prepared for His coming.

But as a Catholic, I feel scared. I feel agony, fear, anxiety, worry, etc. I feel like I’m dishonoring God by talking to other heavenly creatures.

Is it not right to go with my conscience? Or would it be better for me to live a life in constant fear?

As often as not, fear and anxiety come from ignorance of the reality of situations. Perhaps you should examine WHY you’d feel worry about talking to saint or angels in prayer. Do you think God feels left out? jealous?

Have you ever been to an art show? Did you ever see an artist there get upset that people were paying too much attention to his masterpieces and not enough to him?

Or is it that perhaps even flawed and fallen human artists are perceptive enough to realize that praise and honor for an artists work IS praise and honor for the artist himself.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you ASK - this was so well put. You said what I was thinking but I could never have put it down on paper like that.

Departed Light,
You raise some good points below, just as A.S.K. did in his post.
I hope you saw my response to ASK and hope it helped you some. I will try to answer the specifics you list here.

Catholics please, please don’t read this as snippy. The list thing that A.S.K. is talking about is a major stumbling block for me as well as I am sure many other Christians. It is a sin leading to death and hell if you don’t go Mass every Sunday? Or if you miss Mass on one of the special days (sorry I don’t know what they are called but I think the various Marian Feasts are examples – “obligation days” ? or something like that)

The term you seek is “Holy Day of Obligation”.
First let me preface my remarks by saying that ANY Sin is leading to death and Hell. That is where sin points. So we should not sin. Not even little ones.
Your portrayal of missing mass being a serious sin is a bit oversimplified. The rule comes from the 3rd commandment which is, “Keep Holy the Lord’s day”.
The Church teaches that we are to attend mass on Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation unless there is a good reason why you cannot. I am in just such a situation due to my wife’s illness. This is a matter I discussed with my priest and he agreed that I if I could not make it to mass it was not a sin.

Being a Christian should be freeing and joyous! It is liberating.

Being a Catholic is the most liberating experience I know!!!
We are Free to Love God, To devote ourselves to Seeking Him and Praising Him.
We are also Free to reject God, (unlike the OSAS’er)
If we do reject God we are free to return (unlike the calvinists and predestination)
We are Free to attend Mass EVERY DAY and recieve our Lord - Body Blood - Soul - and divinity.
I Love being Free in the Catholic Church.

When I seriously look at Catholicism I see no problems with the Church’s explanations of the doctrines which she holds, but the actual practical application of Catholicism for me is just oppressive. Where is the joy that surpasses all understanding if you have to worry about every action you do and what you need and don’t need to confess?

Yes some people can make things feel gloomy, but that has not been my experience of The Church.
As far as worrying about what to confess and what not to, - that isn’t a big issue, and certainly nothing to worry about. The bigger issue whether for catholics or non-catholics is the avoidance of sin in the first place. As for confession, if you make a good confession but don’t remember and confess every sin, no matter, they are all absolved - even the ones you forgot.

Where is the freedom in Christ if you have to worry about the rubrics of worship – you can’t use glass to hold Communion wine – who cares? Catholics do. Why? What does it matter? The Church says it matters so it does. This stuff makes my head swim.

I agree - It does not matter to me either. Not because I think the Church is wrong, after all whenever I read up on something It always makes sense. Rather it is because I am not repsonsible for that piece of the tapestry of Faith. I am not a sacristan so I don’t need to know or worry about such things.

I too understand where Tristan is coming from; shoot I am there myself to some extent.

I hope we can help all understand.

I did not find you post at all “snippy”
It is honest and well written.

Peace
James