Why I could never follow Luther.

[rinnie]

The question then, rinnie, would be what ecumenical council (as opposed to local or regional) prior to Trent authoritatively set the canon, and if there was one before the Great Schism, why is (are) the Orthodox canon(s) different?
And further, why would a Cardinal, alive during the heat of the Reformation, state that the D-C’s were not of the canon?

I would say that the canon was not dogmatically defined (for Catholics) prior to Trent, and therefore the freedom was there, and not contrary to the Church.

And we both believe this: leading and guiding us back to the unity in the Church Militant that exists in the Church Triumphant.

Jon

Hi Jon, sorry I took so long. IT was such a beautiful day yesterday, Me and my Husband actually got to go for a ride on the bike in November (can you believe it, it was almost 70 out!

I must admit you have me at a disadvantage here, I am not too far in my study of Church History to make a intelligent statement yet, I am just now beginning to study that.

But from what I understand the Canon of the Traditional Bible (LV) is exactly the same as the Canon Of Trent 1000 years later.

 

[swords99]

He removed books from the bible. That in itself is a good enough reason not to follow him.

An obvious sign that someone has not read anything about Luther and the canon is always the assertion, “Luther removed books from the Bible,” or “Luther removed books from the New Testament.” It is a simple historical fact that Luther’s translation of the Bible contained all of its books.

As for the apocrypha, they have never proven inspiration, mainly due to questionable authorship, late date of the writings, fables, as well as content that conflicts with the rest of Scripture…

 

[swords99]

… and Thomas Jefferson tells us why!

Remember Servetus!

Jefferson the slave owner who called himself a Unitarian? Who bluntly stated that demonism is more closely related to Christianity than to Atheism?

As for Servetus he was one of many who were exiled or executed. I never did say I followed Calvin. So what is your point?..

 

[swords99]

One thing we must try to do is get our info, as accurate as we can. Now from what I have learned from the years of studying my faith, Luther did not take out the books.

But what Luther did was move them, which in turn he got his point acrossed that he did want them removed, but knew he had no authority to do so. But in honesty they were removed after Luther, But he did drive the bus we can say. Or planted the seed.

Unlike the NT books, which claimed to be inspired , the apocryphal books never make that claim. Moreover no apocryphal book was written by a true prophet or apostle of God…Further, no apocryphal book contains predictive prophecy, which would have served to confirm divine inspiration.

Jerome rejected the Apocrypha:

"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."

So this rejection was long before Luther was even born. There are other spurious books such as the Pseudepigrapha which contains Enoch, Michael the Archangel, and Jannes and Jambres. Many of these books falsely claim to have been written by various OT patriarchs.

The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries.

The bottom line is that some of us are forgetting that God is in charge here and God is more powerful than any man. Its time to stop using Luther as our scapegoat.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Unlike the NT books, which claimed to be inspired , the apocryphal books never make that claim. Moreover no apocryphal book was written by a true prophet or apostle of God…Further, no apocryphal book contains predictive prophecy, which would have served to confirm divine inspiration.

Jerome rejected the Apocrypha:

"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."

So this rejection was long before Luther was even born. There are other spurious books such as the Pseudepigrapha which contains Enoch, Michael the Archangel, and Jannes and Jambres. Many of these books falsely claim to have been written by various OT patriarchs.

The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries.

The bottom line is that some of us are forgetting that God is in charge here and God is more powerful than any man. Its time to stop using Luther as our scapegoat.

Have you even heard of the septuegint. It is a copulation of old Testment translated in stages between the 3rd and 2nd century BC in Alexandria. it contains all of the deutrocannonical books Judith and Tobit and Maccabees Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, It was in wide use in israel during the time of Christ and almost all Old Testment quotes found in the New Testemant come from it. Not only that but Christ and the Apostels quoted from the deutrocannonical books. Now if you wish to remove them because of conflicting accounts of events found in the book of Maccabees. Then we may need to remove genesis ( 2 stories of creation) Sammuel ( 4 different times Saul meets David for the first time and David anointed King I believe 4 different times) This is just a start. And keep in mind also that the sadducees during the time of Christ rejected all but the Torah as Scripture. We see how well that worked for them.

 

[swords99]

Have you even heard of the septuegint. It is a copulation of old Testment translated in stages between the 3rd and 2nd century BC in Alexandria. it contains all of the deutrocannonical books Judith and Tobit and Maccabees Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, It was in wide use in israel during the time of Christ and almost all Old Testment quotes found in the New Testemant come from it. Not only that but Christ and the Apostels quoted from the deutrocannonical books. Now if you wish to remove them because of conflicting accounts of events found in the book of Maccabees. Then we may need to remove genesis ( 2 stories of creation) Sammuel ( 4 different times Saul meets David for the first time and David anointed King I believe 4 different times) This is just a start. And keep in mind also that the sadducees during the time of Christ rejected all but the Torah as Scripture. We see how well that worked for them.

The Deuterocanonical books are not part of the Hebrew Bible.

Josephus speaks of the books as being 22 in number, which according to Jewish numbering is the same as the 39 in the Protestant OT.

In Luke 11:51 and Matt 23:55, Jesus’ reference to the “the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah” affirms the first book of the Hebrew scripture as Genesis, and the last book as II Chronicles. This affirmation demonstrates the Hebrew “Canon” was closed by the time of Malachi in 425 B.C.

Jesus, like all the Jews of the 1st century, divided the OT into three “collections”: the law, the prophets, the psalms. (Luke 24:44)

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

:

The Deuterocanonical books are not part of the Hebrew Bible.

Josephus speaks of the books as being 22 in number, which according to Jewish numbering is the same as the 39 in the Protestant OT.

In Luke 11:51 and Matt 23:55, Jesus’ reference to the “the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah” affirms the first book of the Hebrew scripture as Genesis, and the last book as II Chronicles. This affirmation demonstrates the Hebrew “Canon” was closed by the time of Malachi in 425 B.C.

Jesus, like all the Jews of the 1st century, divided the OT into three “collections”: the law, the prophets, the psalms. (Luke 24:44)

Also keep in mind that protestants did not even remove these books till 1800’s and there is a trend today to included them again.

The jewish cannon of scripture was not set till around 90 ad at which time they rejected all writting that hebrew copies could not be found. Today we are finding older copies of these books written in guess what, yeah you got it Hebrew and Aramaic. And again all jews did not accept all of those prior to that time as the sadducees only accepted the first five book the books of the Law the books of moses Genisis Exodus leviticus numbers and deutoronemy.

if you go to this web site you can see the cross refferance of new testement with the DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

As for In Luke 11:51 and Matt 23:55, Jesus’ reference to the “the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah” maybe he was just saying from A to Z.

 

[John1]

Hi Rinnie,

You should neverv say you follow anyone, Luther, Paul, Apollos,or Peter…only Jesus. The Inspired writings make that perfectly clear.

 

[swords99]

:

Also keep in mind that protestants did not even remove these books till 1800’s and there is a trend today to included them again.

The jewish cannon of scripture was not set till around 90 ad at which time they rejected all writting that hebrew copies could not be found. Today we are finding older copies of these books written in guess what, yeah you got it Hebrew and Aramaic. And again all jews did not accept all of those prior to that time as the sadducees only accepted the first five book the books of the Law the books of moses Genisis Exodus leviticus numbers and deutoronemy.

if you go to this web site you can see the cross refferance of new testement with the DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

As for In Luke 11:51 and Matt 23:55, Jesus’ reference to the “the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah” maybe he was just saying from A to Z.

The Hebrew OT was there before Jesus even came in the flesh to begin His earthly ministry. God had already entrusted the Jews with His Oracles. The Hebrew Scriptures do not have the Deutero canonical books.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The Hebrew OT was there before Jesus even came in the flesh to begin His earthly ministry. God had already entrusted the Jews with His Oracles. The Hebrew Scriptures do not have the Deutero canonical books.

Yes, and those the books of Deutero canonical books are part of it. This is a fact not only shown through church history but secular history as well.

swords I am really trying to be charitable, but please stop drinking the cool-aid. I mean you can go to secular sites and get the same info on the septuagint that I have provided above. There was not a set cannon of scripture for the Jewish people prior to 90 AD. That is a fact. The sadduceess rejected all of what is in the Old testement except for the fist five books. Even protestant bible prior to the the 1800 included these books. Do not go by what you have been told and stay away from the anit catholic site. Do not even go to catholic sites if you dont wish a quick look at wikiepedia while give you this info and links to primary sources.

 

[swords99]

Yes, and those the books of Deutero canonical books are part of it. This is a fact not only shown through church history but secular history as well.

swords I am really trying to be charitable, but please stop drinking the cool-aid. I mean you can go to secular sites and get the same info on the septuagint that I have provided above. There was not a set cannon of scripture for the Jewish people prior to 90 AD. That is a fact. The sadduceess rejected all of what is in the Old testement except for the fist five books. Even protestant bible prior to the the 1800 included these books. Do not go by what you have been told and stay away from the anit catholic site. Do not even go to catholic sites if you dont wish a quick look at wikiepedia while give you this info and links to primary sources.

I have the Jewish Holy Scriptures. They do not have the extra books. The apocrypha never claimed inspiration. There are many proven errors and contradictions in the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I have the Jewish Holy Scriptures. They do not have the extra books. .

Yes, you will not find the Deuterocannonicals books in the Canno of scripture of the Jewish poeple of TODAY. However prior to the year 90 AD you would not have been able to find a set closed cannon of scripture for the JEWISH people. they did not have one.

The apocrypha never claimed inspiration. There are many proven errors and contradictions in the Apocrypha / Deuterocanonicals

You you not read the Post. here I will repost it

Have you even heard of the septuegint. It is a copulation of old Testment translated in stages between the 3rd and 2nd century BC in Alexandria. it contains all of the deutrocannonical books Judith and Tobit and Maccabees Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, It was in wide use in israel during the time of Christ and almost all Old Testment quotes found in the New Testemant come from it. Not only that but Christ and the Apostels quoted from the deutrocannonical books. Now if you wish to remove them because of conflicting accounts of events found in the book of Maccabees. Then we may need to remove genesis ( 2 stories of creation) Sammuel ( 4 different times Saul meets David for the first time and David anointed King I believe 4 different times) This is just a start. And keep in mind also that the sadducees during the time of Christ rejected all but the Torah as Scripture. We see how well that worked for them. You can not dimiss one book and keep another so if say maccabees gooes for inconsistant story Genisis and Sammuel have to go to.

 

[swords99]

Yes, you will not find the Deuterocannonicals books in the Canno of scripture of the Jewish poeple of TODAY. However prior to the year 90 AD you would not have been able to find a set closed cannon of scripture for the JEWISH people. they did not have one.

You you not read the Post. here I will repost it

Have you even heard of the septuegint. It is a copulation of old Testment translated in stages between the 3rd and 2nd century BC in Alexandria. it contains all of the deutrocannonical books Judith and Tobit and Maccabees Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, It was in wide use in israel during the time of Christ and almost all Old Testment quotes found in the New Testemant come from it. Not only that but Christ and the Apostels quoted from the deutrocannonical books. Now if you wish to remove them because of conflicting accounts of events found in the book of Maccabees. Then we may need to remove genesis ( 2 stories of creation) Sammuel ( 4 different times Saul meets David for the first time and David anointed King I believe 4 different times) This is just a start. And keep in mind also that the sadducees during the time of Christ rejected all but the Torah as Scripture. We see how well that worked for them. You can not dimiss one book and keep another so if say maccabees gooes for inconsistant story Genisis and Sammuel have to go to.

What’s happening here is you are not looking outside of the box of Roman Catholicism. If you research the history (not RCC) you will learn that the apocrypha were never accepted as canonical by Jesus or His apostles.The OT which Jesus knew is our OT today. Jesus’ OT was the Hebrew OT. It has never numbered these apocryphal writings. The apostles mention many Old Testament events, but they never refer to any incidents or characters of the Apocrypha.

The Septuagint is merely the Greek Translation of the Hebrew Jewish Scriptures…

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

What’s happening here is you are not looking outside of the box of Roman Catholicism. If you research the history you will learn that the apocrypha were never accepted as canonical by Jesus or His apostles.The OT which Jesus knew is our OT today. Jesus’ OT was the Hebrew OT. It has never numbered these apocryphal writings. The apostles mention many Old Testament events, but they never refer to any incidents or characters of the Apocrypha.

The Septuagint is merely the Greek Translation of the Hebrew Jewish Scriptures…

Did you even read your own post here The Septuagint is merely the Greek Translation of the Hebrew Jewish Scriptures". now you just acknowledged that the Septuagint is Jewish Scripture. You do realize that the Deutro cannonical books are in there, right? That by your own admission places them as Jewish scripture. And I have done the research Jesus and the Apostols used the Seputagint. All of it. Oh and by the way it is not just Catholics, both Romana and Eastern Rites, But also the Orthodox that include thse books. It is only those protestants ove the last 500 years that began to reject them.

 

[swords99]

Did you even read your own post here The Septuagint is merely the Greek Translation of the Hebrew Jewish Scriptures". now you just acknowledged that the Septuagint is Jewish Scripture. You do realize that the Deutro cannonical books are in there, right? That by your own admission places them as Jewish scripture. And I have done the research Jesus and the Apostols used the Seputagint. All of it. Oh and by the way it is not just Catholics, both Romana and Eastern Rites, But also the Orthodox that include thse books. It is only those protestants ove the last 500 years that began to reject them.

Judaism officially excluded the deuterocanonicals. They are NOT PART OF THE HEBREW BIBLE. God entrusted His chosen people with His very Oracles. Later Greek speaking Jews had the Scriptures translated into their own language. Over the next century the remaining OT was also translated, as were a number of ‘apocryphal’ books now considered uncanonical, .

Therefore the RCC is without basis to claim these deutero canonical books are inspired.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Please Mike, I thought we were trying to have a honest and intelligent discussion. Anyone or any faith that accepts God is led by the Holy Spirit. I don’t care who they are or what faith they are. If God is involved the H.S. in involved. There is no Father w/o the Son or H.S.

All faiths have much truth, and all faiths have God. But we are called to all come together into the fullness of the truth. That is what this is about. Not to sling mud on one another.

It is not about the Holy Spirit leading us to the truth, it is about who has the authority to teach the truth and explain it to us what the Holy Spirit is teaching.

ANd according to the scripture, it is the Church that Jesus build and made Peter the leader of. Which has been handed over to the Pope to guard, and make sure that we are understanding what the Holy Spirit means, and how the H.S. wants us to live. So we can all know the complete truth and live in complete lightness of God.

Yes Rinnie, I agree I thought we were having an intelligent and honest discussion. And I was not mudslinging. You stated:

I am sorry the CC is Perfect. The CC is the Living Christ and Christ is perfect. The RCC is NOT led by Men it is led by the advocate the Holy Spirit just as Jesus promised.

I will send you the Advococate the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truths. Thats what Jesus said,

My simple question was simply asking if you considered the Orthodox to be lead by the HS, in your quote, you negated that any outside of the RCC are led by the HS. And I’m still not certain that when you refer to the CC that it is encompassing any church outside of the Roman sphere.

I think I have said this before, if not here, but in other forums. I will certainly buy into the papacy in a primus inter pares relationship among the bishops of, at least, the Pentarchy, but I will not buy into that all are subject directly to Peter. I think the examples contained in Acts 1 and Acts 15 are clear on the relationship of Peter and the rest of the Apostles. If the papacy is the direct successor to Peter’s authority, then the papacy should be living to these examples.

I truly believe that as long as the Roman Church is separated from the Orthodox brethren, then the fullness of Truth that is claimed by Rome alone, is not in Rome at all. At this time Rome has only a portion of the truth just as the Orthodox.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Judaism officially excluded the deuterocanonicals. They are NOT PART OF THE HEBREW BIBLE. God entrusted His chosen people with His very Oracles. Later Greek speaking Jews had the Scriptures translated into their own language. Over the next century the remaining OT was also translated, as were a number of ‘apocryphal’ books now considered uncanonical, .

Therefore the RCC is without basis to claim these deutero canonical books are inspired.

Judiam did not offically have a cannon of scripture till 90 AD. Also there were those that rejected all books other than the Books of Moses. Are you trying to say that the Sadducesee were not Jewish? They only reconnized the five books of the Torah. There are numerous Quotes in the New Testement that come from the Deutro Books. The translation into greek of these books happened around 300 BC and were the list of books used in Galilee at the time of Christ.

Are you really arguing that we need to follow the example of people that rejected Christ in their decission to some 60 years after his Ressurection they reject portions of scripture. Is that what you are saying we should do.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Not only that but Christ and the Apostels quoted from the deutrocannonical books. .

Can you cite some of these quotes of Christ and the apostles

 

[swords99]

Judiam did not offically have a cannon of scripture till 90 AD. Also there were those that rejected all books other than the Books of Moses. Are you trying to say that the Sadducesee were not Jewish? They only reconnized the five books of the Torah. There are numerous Quotes in the New Testement that come from the Deutro Books. The translation into greek of these books happened around 300 BC and were the list of books used in Galilee at the time of Christ.

Are you really arguing that we need to follow the example of people that rejected Christ in their decission to some 60 years after his Ressurection they reject portions of scripture. Is that what you are saying we should do.

First off, you say the Jewish cannon wasn’t decided until 90AD. However, there was never a council of Jamima. It was only in the 20th century that it was speculated that there may been been one. Look it up and you will see its referred to as hypothetical.

The canon was indeed closed by the time of Jesus’ earthly mission. He said the Scriptures consisted of the Law, Prophets and Psalms. Nothing else. When Jesus and the apostles appealed to Scripture, they had a specific set of books in view. Biblical and historical testimony affirm this. This threefold set of books did not contain the apocrypha.

History reveals that in 90-100 AD the Jews were actually uniting against the apocryphal books. The apocrypha in the larger Greek canon were eventually repudiated by the Jews later in the 1st century. There isn’t any historical evidence to verify that the Septuagint used during the Apostolic era included the apocrypha.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Can you cite some of these quotes of Christ and the apostles

scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html