Why I could never follow Luther.

[benedictus2]

Hi, Gracelife,

I will quickly put my two cents in before Benedictus2 comes in … But, your view of the Catholic Church is really quite different from the reality of the Catholic Church. Let me explain.

I do not question your sincerity, Gracelife, when you tell us about the goal of the Lutheran Church. But, do not go along with the inventions of others when describing the goal of the Catholic Church. The one developed by the ‘Reformers’ totally missed the point. The challenge before all is not to confuse the use of something with its abuse. Again, I ask you to look at the example set by St. Catherine of Siena - see how she addressed the evils in the Catholic Church at the time and see the good that she brought about in her cooperation with the Grace of God.

This is the focus - a Catholic Church faithfully fulfilling her role as Bride of Christ.

God bless

That is a very good reply to Gracelife.

 

[benedictus2]

YES YES YES!
We do this every day. We sin. Even in the little things. In sin we are out of Christ’s will, still we are fully Christian. That’s the beauty of it!
Sin is ugly, yes. But God’s mercy is beautiful!

A propos my earlier reply, don’t you think it is strange that you have just classified your insistence in remaining Lutheran as a sin ?

 

[vulcano37214]

Hi, Vulcano,

Actually, you did not answer anything. I really think this involves comprehension not just reading. I specifically told you this quote did not fit. Maybe it is you do not understand why it doesn’;t fit. Let me help…

Let’s take a look at the verse and see what it says - and doesn’t say!

All scripture is inspired by God (yes, it is inspired - or God breathed words)

and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
(of course it is useful - God would not be giving us anything useless! And, how can it be used? Well, Paul gives us four items that he wants us to take to heart: teaching is first, refuting error, correcting those that stray from the path to Christ and finally for training others. That is what is says. Now, it does not say it ALL YOU NEED. If you will note Matt 16:18 - Christ established His Church on Peter, promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail, that the Holy Spirit would guide it and sends the Holy Spirit on that First Pentecost - the birthday of the Catholic Church. )

so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
(we have established that we belong to God and that we need to know what God expects of us - and that is following Christ in the manner He designated. Following Christ is done by cooperating with the Grace of God and He will equip us to do His Will.

Note that at the time Paul wrote his second letter to Timothy was in about 63-64AD. John would not write Revelations until about the 100AD. This means that the only complete document Paul could have been referring to was the Old Testament. The earliest writing was that of James which was completed before 58AD So, it really is unclear if Paul knew of the other writings or that they would form what we call the New Testament.

Paul’s words are accurate as far as they go - but, the take home message is that at no time in his letter to Timothy (or to any other person) does Paul say that you only need Scripture. And, it would be almost another 300 years after John wrote the last book in New Testament before the Catholic Church would canonize the writings that we identified as inspired.

Luther took it on his own (he never claimed to be inspired by God, and there is no report about God appearing to Luther and telling him that He changed His Mind and Peter’s Successors were no longer in charge of Christ’s Church) to ultimately make his own church.

One of the most intriguing aspects of the ‘Reformation’ era is that there was about 1.500 years of history beginning with the death of the Apostle John until Luther nailed his 95 Thesis to the church door. This history can not simply be ignored - and to pick up in the 16th Century as though Jesus just left the earth. Ignoring history is folly.

God bless

I was actually commenting on your statement about where in scriputure is contained everything needed for salvation. And it is all throughout Scripture.
Acts 16:29-32
29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Hebrews 4:12
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Bottom line is i believe the Bible is the authoritative Word of God. Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners which i am. If it were not for the Grace of God i would be lost. Who will save me from this body of death, thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Ads]

I was thinking of this all day and wonder how others feel about it.

Luther came AFTER the Church. Now scriptures said the Church is One, Holy, Catholic,and Apostolic.

Now on a common sense level Luther separated himself from the ONE Church. Now we come into the battle who has the ONE Church. It has to be the Church that was started by Peter.

Now here is where the problem with Luther comes in my mind. Luther was at one time a part of the Church started by Peter. Simply because, he walked away from the Church that History proves was connected to Peter. Here is where common sense comes to play, Peter and the CC were here long before Luther, Luther was not here long before the CC.

Now in my eyes it shows how Luther walked away from Jesus because Jesus said the Church and I are ONE. and there is ONE HCAC,

Now rather there was sin going by humans in the RCC at that time or not has nothing to do with the OHCAC.

I mean do People really think that Peter did not have Sin, that John didn’t, Etc. We know they did because of the repentance that they continued to do all of their lives.

Now the RCC is considered the Church that is led by the Pope. (the present Peter). Now the Catholic Church is universal. Which mean one, all are welcome, all can become one in Christ through Christ with Christ who is the Church.

Now I have heard that there is no such thing as the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH! Now that is not true. Now granted the Church is not Roman but it is called the Roman Catholic Church, has been forever.

Now Luther was at one time part of the RCC. Now if the Church is one, and was here long before Luther how could there possibly be more than One Church?

Please no disrespect anyone, just trying to figure out their line of reasoning on this?

Remember that there be a falling away first, that’s a falling away from God by the Church not a falling away of men from the Church. Because of the falling away men like Luther left to follow the Bible alone or to the best of his ability and the light given at the time.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Well what does he say?
One is either a Christian or one is not a Christian… there is no in-between…

msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/

you can read for yourself.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ads,

That is an excellent distinction - and, I know you can supply a reference for it! Please do.

While you do that … let me give you some ideas that actually run quite contrary to your post!

Remember that there be a falling away first, that’s a falling away from God by the Church not a falling away of men from the Church. Because of the falling away men like Luther left to follow the Bible alone or to the best of his ability and the light given at the time.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In your enthusiasm for quoting Paul, did you happen to notice what he said in Eph 5:22-32? Let me give you the verses:

22
Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
23
For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
24
As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her
26
to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
27
that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28
So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29
For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,
30
because we are members of his body.
31
“For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32
This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

Do you notice how Paul compares the relationship of Christ with the Church - the Chruch He founded - the Catholic Church? Paul compares this relationship to a husband and wife. This is not a casual encounter - this is a life-long commitment…"…Through sickness and in health…".

And you would have us believe that the Chruch founded on Peter (Matt 16:18). and crowned with the ultimate victory that the Gates of Hell would not prevail, protected and guded from teaching error and enlivened by this same Holy Spirit on that First Pentecost Sunday - the birthday of the Catholic Church … has now abandoned Christ. And men such as Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, Wesley and thousands of others each with their competing gospels of contradiction built on the traditions of men - has remained faithful to Christ. Just look around you? Do you see order and the unity Christ prayed for - or the chaos of self-proclaimed prophets each leading more people furher away from Christ?

You claim the Bible as your authority? That same Bible that Luther used and then modified came from the Catholic Church - and, that takes NO faith - just a knowledge of history.

It was misguided and prideful men who abandoned the Church of Christ (and, that would be the Catholic Church) for the thrill of creating their own religion based on what they agreed with from Christ’s teachings and saw fit to delete what they disagreed with from Christ. This is the very issue that this thread is addressing.

God bless

 

[Janet1983]

First you have to define what a Christian is. You might find out to your chagrin that you actually don’t qualify if you put it that black and white …

Mother Theresa is a Christian and I consider myself to be one as well. But between her and me, she is much more fully a Christian than I ever could be because she truly followed the Lord.

Being Christian does not consist in merely saying that Jesus is Lord. You have to embody in your life that statement : that Jesus is indeed Lord.

And if Jesus is Lord - then I will follow His will - including the one regarding His Church.

Just because there are better Christians and worse Christians, Christians who need more forgiveness and Christians who need less, does not mean that these are not Christians.
Just because my faith might be different than Mother Theresa’s was, doesn’t mean that either of us us not a Christian.
Facets don’t make one a Non-Christian. With all of our differences within churches and between churches, I would compare Christianity to a stain-glass window. If you stand really close you won’t see anything, but the colour you are looking at, but if you step back you will see that despite all the differences and because of the love we share, we do resemble Christ after all.

 

[Janet1983]

msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/

you can read for yourself.

I was honestly expecting that you had an official paper to back your claims up and to tell us what you were talking about.
You just said to look up what he said about the one true church, but you didn’t mention what document and what you were trying to get at.
If you go ahead and open each and every document the current pope has published and search for the word “church” you will find a ton of information and it will take too long to go through.
What were you trying to say then (and I am not talking about MSNBC as a source)?

When non-Catholics try to prove something it has to be an official document.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I was honestly expecting that you had an official paper to back your claims up and to tell us what you were talking about.
You just said to look up what he said about the one true church, but you didn’t mention what document and what you were trying to get at.
If you go ahead and open each and every document the current pope has published and search for the word “church” you will find a ton of information and it will take too long to go through.
What were you trying to say then (and I am not talking about MSNBC as a source)?

When non-Catholics try to prove something it has to be an official document.

Correct I did not mention any document. I look at what Pope Benedict had to say about it.

If you do not like the MSNBC Then just Type Pope benedict says there is only one church and search for it.

If you would like a documet that of the Catholic Chruch there are the Creeds.

they states that We belive in One, holy, catholic, and Apostalic Church.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Janet1983,

The term “Christian” can be used like the term “cheese” or “wine” or “crackers”. A term so generic is useful only in so far as it excludes an item. While ‘grass’ would not usually be entered into any of these categories - it tells you nothing about the ‘cheese’ or other products.

I used this becaue there are ‘cheese’ products made with water and oil and a lot of chemicals - and any resembelence to something that is made at a dairy is an illusion. there are ‘wines’ that contain no alcohol and are really grape juice - or ‘wines’ fortified with pure grain alcohol. And, yes, even ‘crackers’ made without gluten! So, now we find that while we thought we knew what we were talking about - there ar all of these other groups that are claiming to be included.

There ar those who would say, “Sure! These products are all welcomed to join!” but, then problems arise - how do you pick a real cheese from a cheese product that is more synthetic than natural if they all can claim the same name? I think the same can be said your question about ‘Christian’. As it turns our, anyone can claim to be ‘Christian’ - and if all you are interested in is a descriptive term instead of a real commitment, well, you have it.

Now, here is a link that I think you will find helpful: catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp Let me know if you need more or have specific questons on this item.

God bless

Just because there are better Christians and worse Christians, Christians who need more forgiveness and Christians who need less, does not mean that these are not Christians.
Just because my faith might be different than Mother Theresa’s was, doesn’t mean that either of us us not a Christian.
Facets don’t make one a Non-Christian. With all of our differences within churches and between churches, I would compare Christianity to a stain-glass window. If you stand really close you won’t see anything, but the colour you are looking at, but if you step back you will see that despite all the differences and because of the love we share, we do resemble Christ after all.

 

[vulcano37214]

Hi, Ads,

That is an excellent distinction - and, I know you can supply a reference for it! Please do.

While you do that … let me give you some ideas that actually run quite contrary to your post!

In your enthusiasm for quoting Paul, did you happen to notice what he said in Eph 5:22-32? Let me give you the verses:

22
Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
23
For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
24
As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her
26
to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,
27
that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28
So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29
For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,
30
because we are members of his body.
31
“For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32
This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

Do you notice how Paul compares the relationship of Christ with the Church - the Chruch He founded - the Catholic Church? Paul compares this relationship to a husband and wife. This is not a casual encounter - this is a life-long commitment…"…Through sickness and in health…".

And you would have us believe that the Chruch founded on Peter (Matt 16:18). and crowned with the ultimate victory that the Gates of Hell would not prevail, protected and guded from teaching error and enlivened by this same Holy Spirit on that First Pentecost Sunday - the birthday of the Catholic Church … has now abandoned Christ. And men such as Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, Wesley and thousands of others each with their competing gospels of contradiction built on the traditions of men - has remained faithful to Christ. Just look around you? Do you see order and the unity Christ prayed for - or the chaos of self-proclaimed prophets each leading more people furher away from Christ?

You claim the Bible as your authority? That same Bible that Luther used and then modified came from the Catholic Church - and, that takes NO faith - just a knowledge of history.

It was misguided and prideful men who abandoned the Church of Christ (and, that would be the Catholic Church) for the thrill of creating their own religion based on what they agreed with from Christ’s teachings and saw fit to delete what they disagreed with from Christ. This is the very issue that this thread is addressing.

God bless

I think you missed the beutiful imagery of the Jewish wedding. The first thing that happens according to Jewish custom is the bethrothal which is the establishment of the marriage covenant. The bridegroom would leave his fathers house to go to the home of the bridegroom and there they would negotiate a price he must pay for his bride. Once the bridegroom paid the price the marriage covenant was established and the bridegroom was sanctified (set apart) exclusively for her husband. Then they would drink from a cup of wine as a symbol of their covenant relationship. After this the groom would return to his fathers for a period of 12 months. He would prepare his place for his bride and likewise the bride would stay at her house to prepare her things and to get ready for married life.

At the end of this period of seperation the groom would come for his bride and take her to live with him.It usually took place at night and would be a torch light procession with his escorts. The bride new the groom was coming but did not no the time of his coming. The grooms arrival preceded with a shout which would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom.
Then they would return to the grooms home where the wedding party had already assembled
The bride would remain veiled pryor to entering the bridal chamber so that no one could see her face and her and the groom would enter into physical union for the first time consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier
The groom would announce it to the wedding party waiting outside the chamber. and the guest would feast for the next 7 days.
During the seven days the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber. At the end of the seven days the groom would bring his bride out with her veil removed so that everyone could see who his bride was.

Does any of this sound familier. Jesus left his Fathers house to come to his brides house. there he suffered and died for our sins, (paid for his bride.) returned home to his fathers house to prepare a place for us. and then he will bring us to his house. I don’t think it is a coincidence that the Jewish wedding is analogous to what Jesus Christ has done for his bride.

 

[benedictus2]

Just because there are better Christians and worse Christians, Christians who need more forgiveness and Christians who need less, does not mean that these are not Christians.

Actually this is exactly my whole point. That there are those who are less Christian and there are those who are more fully Christian but they are none the less Christians. There are shades in between. And it all depends on whether you truly follow Christ according to His will or your supposedly follow Christ but according to your own terms.

Just because my faith might be different than Mother Theresa’s was, doesn’t mean that either of us us not a Christian.
Facets don’t make one a Non-Christian.

That is true but only to a certain degree. A Christian who dabbles in other Eastern Religions as well when these other religion’s belief conflict with Biblical Christianity can hardly be called Christian. Christianity demands a choice, we are either for Christ or we are against Him.

Either we believe Jesus is God as the Second Person of the Trinity or we cannot call ourselves Christians. And if we believe that Jesus is God then that means He has to be Lord of our wilsl. And that means following His will in all things, especially that regarding His Church because this is the manner by which He has chosen to reveal Himself. Without His Church we would not know that Jesus is God and therefore worthy of all our worship and humble submission.

With all of our differences within churches and between churches, I would compare Christianity to a stain-glass window. If you stand really close you won’t see anything, but the colour you are looking at, but if you step back you will see that despite all the differences and because of the love we share, we do resemble Christ after all.

There was someone (I can’t remember who) who compared Catholic Christianity to a stained glass window. Tradition, Scripture, Sacraments, Saints, doctrine, Liturgy, etc. all make up this beautiful harmony of colours that make up the stained glass window.

Then some men came and decided that this piece or that piece of the stained glass window is not necessary so knocked them out. So where once there was this beautiful harmony of colours, there are now only holes. True you can still see the outline but beautiful, it no longer was. This is protestant Christianity.

The good thing is it does not have to be this way.

 

[benedictus2]

Remember that there be a falling away first, that’s a falling away from God by the Church not a falling away of men from the Church.

Read the Bible. Christ established this Church. This Church is His Body. If His Body has fallen away from Christ then Christ has been spiritually decapitated.

Because of the falling away men like Luther left to follow the Bible alone or to the best of his ability and the light given at the time.

Light given to him at the time??. More like darkness that enveloped him.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Another instance of misquoting verses

 

[mountaintop]

what was luther thinking? olrl.org/stories/exorcism.shtml do catholics worship bread?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Vulcano,

What a really interesting story … but I think you missed the point that Ads was trying to make in Post #322. So, let me bring cut to chase: According to Ads the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ, abandoned Christ - and men like Luther saved the day by leaving the Church to follow Christ.

Ads’ story is the product of a hyper-imagination where everything is stood on its head to justify an outcome. Christ and the Catholic Church not only have a very special relationship but - THEY ARE MARRIED.

While your story ads color, flavor and style to the marriage - it does not change any of the realities of marriage: a total committment to the Beloved. Throughout the history of the Catholic Church - beginning with Peter’s thrice denial of Christ - there have been leaders who have fallen short of the mark. Luther was a witness to several leaders who failed to follow Christ. But, unlike St. Catherine of Siena, who faced an even worse set of leaders giving bad example - Luther decides he knows best and stops trying to reform the Church and breaks away.

This unique separation from the Body of Christ would be bad enough by itself, but Luther served as his own model of bad example by developing his own doctrines and revising the Canon of the Bible. While the obvious example here are in the Books of the OT - little is said about his failed efforts to remove the Epistle of James because it did not support his heretical ‘Faith Alone’ doctrine.

I would suggest you either clarify how the Jewish wedding ceremony can incorporate a third party like Luther or go back and read the post in question, and then, address the issue more directly.

God bless

I think you missed the beutiful imagery of the Jewish wedding. The first thing that happens according to Jewish custom is the bethrothal which is the establishment of the marriage covenant. The bridegroom would leave his fathers house to go to the home of the bridegroom and there they would negotiate a price he must pay for his bride. Once the bridegroom paid the price the marriage covenant was established and the bridegroom was sanctified (set apart) exclusively for her husband. Then they would drink from a cup of wine as a symbol of their covenant relationship. After this the groom would return to his fathers for a period of 12 months. He would prepare his place for his bride and likewise the bride would stay at her house to prepare her things and to get ready for married life.

At the end of this period of seperation the groom would come for his bride and take her to live with him.It usually took place at night and would be a torch light procession with his escorts. The bride new the groom was coming but did not no the time of his coming. The grooms arrival preceded with a shout which would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom.
Then they would return to the grooms home where the wedding party had already assembled
The bride would remain veiled pryor to entering the bridal chamber so that no one could see her face and her and the groom would enter into physical union for the first time consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier
The groom would announce it to the wedding party waiting outside the chamber. and the guest would feast for the next 7 days.
During the seven days the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber. At the end of the seven days the groom would bring his bride out with her veil removed so that everyone could see who his bride was.

Does any of this sound familier. Jesus left his Fathers house to come to his brides house. there he suffered and died for our sins, (paid for his bride.) returned home to his fathers house to prepare a place for us. and then he will bring us to his house. I don’t think it is a coincidence that the Jewish wedding is analogous to what Jesus Christ has done for his bride.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Benedictus2,

I like your ‘holey’ stained glass window analogy better than my ‘cheese’ analogy!

God bless

Actually this is exactly my whole point. That there are those who are less Christian and there are those who are more fully Christian but they are none the less Christians. There are shades in between. And it all depends on whether you truly follow Christ according to His will or your supposedly follow Christ but according to your own terms.

That is true but only to a certain degree. A Christian who dabbles in other Eastern Religions as well when these other religion’s belief conflict with Biblical Christianity can hardly be called Christian. Christianity demands a choice, we are either for Christ or we are against Him.

Either we believe Jesus is God as the Second Person of the Trinity or we cannot call ourselves Christians. And if we believe that Jesus is God then that means He has to be Lord of our wilsl. And that means following His will in all things, especially that regarding His Church because this is the manner by which He has chosen to reveal Himself. Without His Church we would not know that Jesus is God and therefore worthy of all our worship and humble submission.

There was someone (I can’t remember who) who compared Catholic Christianity to a stained glass window. Tradition, Scripture, Sacraments, Saints, doctrine, Liturgy, etc. all make up this beautiful harmony of colours that make up the stained glass window.

Then some men came and decided that this piece or that piece of the stained glass window is not necessary so knocked them out. So where once there was this beautiful harmony of colours, there are now only holes. True you can still see the outline but beautiful, it no longer was. This is protestant Christianity.

The good thing is it does not have to be this way.

 

[vulcano37214]

These are the verses you quoted:

Where in these verses does it say that “Scripture contains everything we need for salvation”?

It doesnt say that scripture contains everything we need for salvation as far as i know.
But it tells us how a person is saved and that is all throughout scripture.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Vulcano,

What an excellent beginning answer! But, this is like describing a man by looking at the skeleton. Some flesh and blood needs to be put on this structure … so, let me show you how it fits together…

It doesnt say that scripture contains everything we need for salvation as far as i know.
But it tells us how a person is saved and that is all throughout scripture.

1.) Start off with Christ having been identified as the Son of God at the Jordan when John baptized Christ (John 1:29-33) and Christ selecting His Apostles, performing miracles, challenging the Pharisees and proclaiming the Good News to all.

2.) Christ then takes His Apostles to Caesarea Philippi - where a very large rock lies - and God the Fater selects Peter and gives him the answer to Christ’s question - and then Christ announces that He will build His Church on Peter (Matt 16:18) and give him the authority to bind and lose on earth and in heaven. This is like a Divine Blank Check and Christ says He will cover it!

3.) Christ feeds 5,000 men and calms a storm at sea to show He can control nature - and then tells His listeners that they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood if they are to have life in Him (John 6). He demonstates how He will accomplish this as recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke’s account of the Last Supper. This was no mere symbol or simple rememberance - but, Christ held His own Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity in His Hands - and gave it to His Apostles and told them, “THIS IS MY BODY”. Just read the words in your Bible. That night He was arrested and the following day He was crucified and died to save us from our sins.

4.) Christ rises from the dead and returns to His Apostles and delegates the Power of God to forgive sin (John 20:20)

Now, while I could go on … the bottom line is that there is the Catholic Church - the Bride of Christ - and this is the Church that Luther left.

God bless

 

[vulcano37214]

Hi, Vulcano,

What an excellent beginning answer! But, this is like describing a man by looking at the skeleton. Some flesh and blood needs to be put on this structure … so, let me show you how it fits together…

1.) Start off with Christ having been identified as the Son of God at the Jordan when John baptized Christ (John 1:29-33) and Christ selecting His Apostles, performing miracles, challenging the Pharisees and proclaiming the Good News to all.

2.) Christ then takes His Apostles to Caesarea Philippi - where a very large rock lies - and God the Fater selects Peter and gives him the answer to Christ’s question - and then Christ announces that He will build His Church on Peter (Matt 16:18) and give him the authority to bind and lose on earth and in heaven. This is like a Divine Blank Check and Christ says He will cover it!

3.) Christ feeds 5,000 men and calms a storm at sea to show He can control nature - and then tells His listeners that they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood if they are to have life in Him (John 6). He demonstates how He will accomplish this as recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke’s account of the Last Supper. This was no mere symbol or simple rememberance - but, Christ held His own Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity in His Hands - and gave it to His Apostles and told them, “THIS IS MY BODY”. Just read the words in your Bible. That night He was arrested and the following day He was crucified and died to save us from our sins.

4.) Christ rises from the dead and returns to His Apostles and delegates the Power of God to forgive sin (John 20:20)

Now, while I could go on … the bottom line is that there is the Catholic Church - the Bride of Christ - and this is the Church that Luther left.

God bless

Actually the passover is a memorial, that was done every year at the same time and they ate the same meal. Unleavened bread, bitter herbs and of course the Paschal Lamb , spotless and without blemish. They had to drain the blood from the lamb and it could not be seethed in water or boiled, no blood and no water. And the blood of that innocent lamb was to be put on the door post of their homes so the death angel would pass over them, hence the Passover. when they slew the lamb they could not break any bones. The blood on the doorpost was only required for the first passover.

When the disciples sat down with Jesus they knew what this feast they were about to eat was about. It was to memorialize Gods deliverance from Egypt as it was every year. Only this passover that Jesus had with his disciples was different because when he took the bread and broke it, it was now symbolizing his body being broken and when he drank from the cup it was a symbol of his blood being spilled for the sins of many. The focus has now changed on the memorial from Israels deliverance from Egypt to Christ all sufficient sacrifice that he was about to endure. His death fulfilled both the passover and unleavened bread and of course when he died and rose again he fullfilled the Feast of first Fruits.

I have commented on another post regarding John 6. From what i gather from the responses that i have received is that Catholics don’t believe in salvation by communion. Because if you literally believe you have to eat his literal body then it also says in the same passage that he who does so has eternal life and that Christ will lift up. So one can only conclude by the Catholic interpretation that when you eat his body you will have eternal life. Which would be salvation by communion.

 

[Janet1983]

Actually this is exactly my whole point. That there are those who are less Christian and there are those who are more fully Christian but they are none the less Christians. There are shades in between. And it all depends on whether you truly follow Christ according to His will or your supposedly follow Christ but according to your own terms.

I was actually referring to the strength in faith that makes one Christian different from the other. Some of us may have been forgiven far greater sins than others. I would personally refer to myself as one who has been forgiven in rather severe matters. That is why I am certain that my faith differs from that of other in one or the other way. It makes me different, but not more or less Christian than the next.

That is true but only to a certain degree. A Christian who dabbles in other Eastern Religions as well when these other religion’s belief conflict with Biblical Christianity can hardly be called Christian. Christianity demands a choice, we are either for Christ or we are against Him.

You are right in saying that Christianity demands a choice and that someone who dabbles into these things and others might not rightly consider himself a Christian. I am fully aware of the fact that we can either be in Christ or not be in Christ. I do not believe that there is any other possibility. Either we are indeed for Him or we are against Him.

Either we believe Jesus is God as the Second Person of the Trinity or we cannot call ourselves Christians. And if we believe that Jesus is God then that means He has to be Lord of our wilsl. And that means following His will in all things, especially that regarding His Church because this is the manner by which He has chosen to reveal Himself. Without His Church we would not know that Jesus is God and therefore worthy of all our worship and humble submission.

I submit to Him in everything, but I do not submit to the Catholic Church as I am reluctant to believe that the Catholic Church is the One Church. I believe myself to be a part of His Church and His slave. I serve Him only and my focus is only on Him. I submit to Him for all discipline and reward which is solely at His discression.

There was someone (I can’t remember who) who compared Catholic Christianity to a stained glass window. Tradition, Scripture, Sacraments, Saints, doctrine, Liturgy, etc. all make up this beautiful harmony of colours that make up the stained glass window.

Then some men came and decided that this piece or that piece of the stained glass window is not necessary so knocked them out. So where once there was this beautiful harmony of colours, there are now only holes. True you can still see the outline but beautiful, it no longer was. This is protestant Christianity.

The good thing is it does not have to be this way.

I honestly do not believe my faith to be deficient. I am however not certain whether you wished to imply that.
I am not oblivious to the fact that modern Christianity is rich in facets and differences, but I rest assured that Jesus Christ is at its core. Christianity as the sum of all those who believe in Jesus Christ, who trust in Him as their Lord, Saviour and their God is indeed diverse, but as long as our focus is on Him we are in unity.
As much as I differ from the person sitting next to me in the pew in my opinions and values, I do differ from you, but I do know that our faith in the Lord unites us.
I do not believe my faith to be deficient, even though I left the Catholic Church after years of faithful service.
I do not believe your faith to be deficient as you remain in her, clinging to the Lord.
I do not believe my fellow Christian’s faith to be deficient, even though he or she might have been raised outside of the Catholic Church and has no intention on visibly uniting with her.

The closer we all are to Jesus Christ the closer we will be to each other as well. As long as He is our focus, there will be unity in His Church despite all seeming separation, despite all the denominational boundaries and despite all those who decry the faith of others. As long as we are united through faith in Jesus Christ we will, as His Church, shine His light through us, in all the facets of the individual believers as well as in all the facets of our different denominations.