Why I could never follow Luther.

[Janet1983]

Hi, Janet1983,

The term “Christian” can be used like the term “cheese” or “wine” or “crackers”. A term so generic is useful only in so far as it excludes an item. While ‘grass’ would not usually be entered into any of these categories - it tells you nothing about the ‘cheese’ or other products.

I used this becaue there are ‘cheese’ products made with water and oil and a lot of chemicals - and any resembelence to something that is made at a dairy is an illusion. there are ‘wines’ that contain no alcohol and are really grape juice - or ‘wines’ fortified with pure grain alcohol. And, yes, even ‘crackers’ made without gluten! So, now we find that while we thought we knew what we were talking about - there ar all of these other groups that are claiming to be included.

There ar those who would say, “Sure! These products are all welcomed to join!” but, then problems arise - how do you pick a real cheese from a cheese product that is more synthetic than natural if they all can claim the same name? I think the same can be said your question about ‘Christian’. As it turns our, anyone can claim to be ‘Christian’ - and if all you are interested in is a descriptive term instead of a real commitment, well, you have it.

Now, here is a link that I think you will find helpful: catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp Let me know if you need more or have specific questons on this item.

God bless

Thank you for your answer. I agree that not everything that calls itself Christian truly is Christian. It is however not up to me to decide on the individual. I do honestly believe that you will even find Christians among those groups which objectively do not match the criteria.
As for me, I will resume to do what I have been told:
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Examine yourselves. Or do you not recognize for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless you fail the test. (2 Corinthians 13:5)
I am to examine myself, not you or anybody else. It is your task to examine yourself and I have not part in that. Inasmuch as I do not have part in your self-examination, I am not capable of examining the truthfulness of anybody else.

 

[benedictus2]

It doesnt say that scripture contains everything we need for salvation as far as i know.
But it tells us how a person is saved and that is all throughout scripture.

So therefore you have not answered Tom Qualey’s question.

I suppose your exchange went like this:

Tom: What is 2 + 2?
Vulcano : Red roses are beautiful.

Tom did not ask “how is man saved?”. You answered a question different to the one being asked.

 

[benedictus2]

I was actually referring to the strength in faith that makes one Christian different from the other. Some of us may have been forgiven far greater sins than others. I would personally refer to myself as one who has been forgiven in rather severe matters. That is why I am certain that my faith differs from that of other in one or the other way. It makes me different, but not more or less Christian than the next.

If you are following Christ more closely than the other person who pays lip service to Christ then does all sorts of things that can hardly be called Christian (and are not in the least bit apologetic about it) then there is no question that you are more of a Christian than the other person.

“Christian” is not a static definition because as Christians we grow or we regress.

And no it is not just the strength of faith (as in believing in Jesus Christ) but rather a matter of living out this faith. One can have a strong faith in Jesus and behave abominably. That person would be less of a Christian.

What confuses you is that somehow being Christian is static – "I am saved that’s it "(therefore OSAS). We are not yet saved, but we are being saved.

To be saved is to be transformed into the image of Christ and that transformation is a long process. Some are further down the finish line others are just starting, still others start then fall back out of the process.

You are right in saying that Christianity demands a choice and that someone who dabbles into these things and others might not rightly consider himself a Christian. I am fully aware of the fact that we can either be in Christ or not be in Christ. I do not believe that there is any other possibility. Either we are indeed for Him or we are against Him.

So therefore one cannot define a Christian simply by one’s faith in Christ because there are those who have faith in Christ and also believe in other God’s.
This is what I mean when I said, to be truly Christian is to be totally given over to Christ.

I submit to Him in everything, but I do not submit to the Catholic Church as I am reluctant to believe that the Catholic Church is the One Church.

Here’s my question then to you.

You say you do not believe that the Catholic Church is the One Church established by Jesus Christ. I say she is. Only one of us could be right. Would you be willing to go on a debate on that?

If you are, then my first question is: Why do you say that the Catholic Church is NOT the Church that the Jesus Christ founded on earth? How do you support that belief?

 

[benedictus2]

I believe myself to be a part of His Church and His slave. I serve Him only and my focus is only on Him. I submit to Him for all discipline and reward which is solely at His discression.

If you have been baptized in the Trinitarian way then yes. However, you are a separated member.

I question your focus. You say your focus is only on Him. If your focus is on Him then your focus will be on His Church as well because if there is anything clear in the Bible, it is that He established a Church. You cannot have Him without His Church because that is the way He willed it.

This is the truth that you try to drown out with all your will because submitting to His Church would cost you – it will cost you your will.

At the moment you have it easy. You can say you follow Christ but all the following you really do is to the Christ that you have manufactured in your head. You follow Christ’s will when it lines up with your will. But when it is inconvenient or demands something more from you, you eschew it then rationalize your dissent from His will.

When the gospel is inconvenient, you bypass it. When it is difficult you skip to the next page. But if you bow to His Church you cannot do that because His Church proclaims it all, easy bits and the bits that people find inconvenient.

For following Christ in the Church that He founded means a dying to self (the self that says I will decide which of Christ’s will I will obey). But that is the only way to be a Christian – to die to self so that Christ may live in us.

I honestly do not believe my faith to be deficient. I am however not certain whether you wished to imply that.

First we have to make a distinction.

Your faith (as in your act of will in believing in Jesus Christ) is not deficient (at least as far as I can glean from what you have written).

But your Faith (as in the set of beliefs/(truths?) that you believe are deficient. That is why I put a question mark next to the word truth because some of the things that you believe are actually lies. That you believe in them strongly, there is no doubt.

I am not oblivious to the fact that modern Christianity is rich in facets and differences, but I rest assured that Jesus Christ is at its core.

Oh no, no, no. You miss the point.

I am not talking about modern Christianity. I am talking about the different variants of Christianity and how Catholicism has this beautiful richness with her Tradition, Scripture, Sacraments, etc. and how the other churches have gotten rid of them and so came up with a version of Christianity that is much less rich and beautiful depending on how much they got rid of.

Christianity as the sum of all those who believe in Jesus Christ, who trust in Him as their Lord, Saviour and their God is indeed diverse, but as long as our focus is on Him we are in unity.

You know very well that that is a fairy tale. We are not united. Some would say focus on our common ground but you can only do that for so long because in the end the uncommon ground will come to fore.

We may pray together and serve at pro-life rallies together but in the end when we worship (which is the highest honour we can can give our God) we worship separately. I go to Mass you go to your prayer service. I venerate Mary you don’t. We have the sacraments your don’t. Our doctrines on justification differ.

Until we confront that which divides us then will never be in unity. All we are doing is happily co-exist.

 

[benedictus2]

I do not believe my faith to be deficient, even though I left the Catholic Church after years of faithful service.

Perhaps that is what you need to confront - your reasons for leaving, your reasons for remaining away.

Because whatever it is that may have caused you to leave, it is not because the Catholic Church is not Christ’s church. She is and will always be the One True Church of Jesus Christ… Every other Christian Church is just a cut off branch. That is not to say that God has withdrawn His grace from these cut off branches because their members are still His children and He loves us all.

It may be that you will need to forgive the members of the Church who hurt you. It maybe that some of her members have done you grave wrong and whose evil deeds will demand a profound wrestling with the pain before can let go and forgive. This may be something that you will need to pray for - to be able to forgive.

But until you do this, your hurt will cloud your mind and blind you to the truth – that inspite of the flaws of some of her members, she remains Christ’s Church.

When you can do that then I think the din of the pain will go and you will be able to listen to the rational arguments we present as to why the Catholic Church is the one true Church.

Whoever was instrumental in your leaving the Church will answer to God for it. But you too will have something to answer to God for if being confronted by the Truth you persist in remaining in your false beliefs because of pride.

I do not believe my fellow Christian’s faith to be deficient, even though he or she might have been raised outside of the Catholic Church and has no intention on visibly uniting with her.

Their faith may not be deficient but their understanding of Church and history certainly is and their grasp of Truth will be too.

The closer we all are to Jesus Christ the closer we will be to each other as well.

And the only way to be truly close to Jesus is to be in His Body – the Church; not as a separated member but a visibly united member - able to avail of the life giving graces of the Sacraments - the conduits of graces that transform us into His image.

As long as He is our focus, there will be unity in His Church despite all seeming separation,

It is not a seeming separation; it is a very real separation. Unity will be achieved one soul at a time when those who are separated finally make their way back home.

despite all the denominational boundaries and despite all those who decry the faith of others. As long as we are united through faith in Jesus Christ we will, as His Church, shine His light through us, in all the facets of the individual believers as well as in all the facets of our different denominations.

In the first century there was only a small band of Christians. But they were united so they were able to topple down the mighty Roman Empire.

So long as there are denominations – that mushy picture that you painted is a pie in the sky…. an illusion. And something against Christ’s will.

 

[benedictus2]

Actually the passover is a memorial, that was done every year at the same time and they ate the same meal. Unleavened bread, bitter herbs and of course the Paschal Lamb , spotless and without blemish. They had to drain the blood from the lamb and it could not be seethed in water or boiled, no blood and no water. And the blood of that innocent lamb was to be put on the door post of their homes so the death angel would pass over them, hence the Passover. when they slew the lamb they could not break any bones. The blood on the doorpost was only required for the first passover.

When the disciples sat down with Jesus they knew what this feast they were about to eat was about. It was to memorialize Gods deliverance from Egypt as it was every year. Only this passover that Jesus had with his disciples was different because when he took the bread and broke it, it was now symbolizing his body being broken and when he drank from the cup it was a symbol of his blood being spilled for the sins of many.

That’s a good summary of the passover. The only problem with the above is that the bread is not a symbol, and neither was the wine. Jesus said this IS my body, this IS my blood.

The focus has now changed on the memorial from Israels deliverance from Egypt to Christ all sufficient sacrifice that he was about to endure. His death fulfilled both the passover and unleavened bread and of course when he died and rose again he fullfilled the Feast of first Fruits.

I have commented on another post regarding John 6. From what i gather from the responses that i have received is that Catholics don’t believe in salvation by communion. Because if you literally believe you have to eat his literal body then it also says in the same passage that he who does so has eternal life and that Christ will lift up. So one can only conclude by the Catholic interpretation that when you eat his body you will have eternal life. Which would be salvation by communion.

Depends on how you understand salvation.

Salvation is to be transformed into the image of Christ. Some have this idea that somehow to be saved is to be plucked from the earth and taken to heaven.But it is not quite like that.

Jesus said that if you eat His Body and drink His blood you will have eternal life because the eating and the drinking of His flesh and blood will transform us.

This is what is called in the Eastern Church as Theosis which we translate as Deification.

Eating His Body and drinking His Blood changes us from within. Like the vine and branches, we become so united to Him that the Lifeblood that flows in Him now flows within us.

I have never heard the term salvation by communion but I think you are right there. It is salvation by communion, but this communion is only made possible by His dying and rising.

 

[benedictus2]

I think you missed the beutiful imagery of the Jewish wedding. The first thing that happens according to Jewish custom is the bethrothal which is the establishment of the marriage covenant. The bridegroom would leave his fathers house to go to the home of the bridegroom and there they would negotiate a price he must pay for his bride. Once the bridegroom paid the price the marriage covenant was established and the bridegroom was sanctified (set apart) exclusively for her husband. Then they would drink from a cup of wine as a symbol of their covenant relationship. After this the groom would return to his fathers for a period of 12 months. He would prepare his place for his bride and likewise the bride would stay at her house to prepare her things and to get ready for married life.

At the end of this period of seperation the groom would come for his bride and take her to live with him.It usually took place at night and would be a torch light procession with his escorts. The bride new the groom was coming but did not no the time of his coming. The grooms arrival preceded with a shout which would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom.
Then they would return to the grooms home where the wedding party had already assembled
The bride would remain veiled pryor to entering the bridal chamber so that no one could see her face and her and the groom would enter into physical union for the first time consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier
The groom would announce it to the wedding party waiting outside the chamber. and the guest would feast for the next 7 days.
During the seven days the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber. At the end of the seven days the groom would bring his bride out with her veil removed so that everyone could see who his bride was.

Does any of this sound familier. Jesus left his Fathers house to come to his brides house. there he suffered and died for our sins, (paid for his bride.) returned home to his fathers house to prepare a place for us. and then he will bring us to his house. I don’t think it is a coincidence that the Jewish wedding is analogous to what Jesus Christ has done for his bride.

Good post

Something that you did not extend though was the part about the consumation of the marriage.

The marital union is the closest bond between the man and the woman. How do you relate this to Christ and His bride the Church. At which point is the person very intimately united to Christ?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Janet1983,

You have some interesting ideas here… let me address a couple.

I was actually referring to the strength in faith that makes one Christian different from the other. Some of us may have been forgiven far greater sins than others. I would personally refer to myself as one who has been forgiven in rather severe matters. That is why I am certain that my faith differs from that of other in one or the other way. It makes me different, but not more or less Christian than the next.

The strength of Christ’s forgiveness of our sins has a unique power and one that definitely impacts on one’s faith. I had not really thought of the quality of one’s faith differing from that of another - but, you are right. And, a difference in quality in any one thing makes for real differences in the person.

You are right in saying that Christianity demands a choice and that someone who dabbles into these things and others might not rightly consider himself a Christian. I am fully aware of the fact that we can either be in Christ or not be in Christ. I do not believe that there is any other possibility. Either we are indeed for Him or we are against Him.

Matt 12:30

I submit to Him in everything, but I do not submit to the Catholic Church as I am reluctant to believe that the Catholic Church is the One Church. I believe myself to be a part of His Church and His slave. I serve Him only and my focus is only on Him. I submit to Him for all discipline and reward which is solely at His discression.

Now, I am sure you have been reading in this thread, that Christ actually DID found His Church on Peter and promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matt 16:18), gave His Apostles the delegated Power of God to forgive (or not forgive) the sins of men (John 20:20), instructed His followers to “…make disciples of the whole world…” (Matt 28:19) and promised the Holy Spirit to guide His Church (John 16:13).

Christ also said, “He who hears you hears Me and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16).

So, why exactaly do you claim not to submit to the Catholic Church? Is there an error in these verses?

Luther obviously found real fault in the way the sinful church leaders were doing various things - and all that was wrong was clearly wrong - but not a teaching of the Church. Sinful men were acting on their own - and failing to follow Christ. Luther was correct to identify this - it was the way in which he went about it and ultimately founding his own church based on his own understandings - that lead to major problems for the faithful.

The real role model of someone who clearly saw that the Bride of Christ (the Catholic Church) as identified in Paul’s letter (Eph 5:32) is St. Catherine of Siena. Compared to Luther’s time, 200 years prior, the Catholic Church was in far worse shape! Yet look what she did - and while ‘submitting’ to the Catholic Church she was able to move it towards a closer following of Christ.

I honestly do not believe my faith to be deficient. I am however not certain whether you wished to imply that.

No one to my knowledge is judging your faith. I, however, am questioning your logic on how you can claim to follow Christ as a ‘slave’ yet pick and chose which of His commands you will ‘submit’ to.

I am not oblivious to the fact that modern Christianity is rich in facets and differences, but I rest assured that Jesus Christ is at its core. Christianity as the sum of all those who believe in Jesus Christ, who trust in Him as their Lord, Saviour and their God is indeed diverse, but as long as our focus is on Him we are in unity.

With 20,000+ various groups, sects, assemblies, congregations - each claiming to be a church that follow Christ and all disagreeing over each other’s doctrines, how can you say this? Truly, the only one item of doctrine they all agree on is that the Catholic Church - the One founded by Christ on Peter - is not the True Church!

Now, it may sound like a warm-fuzzy about all this diversity leading to unity - but, it is not he reality spoken of by Christ! You may want to read Matt 7:22. Contained in this section is a real wake-up call for those who want to adapt Christ to fit their terms.

As much as I differ from the person sitting next to me in the pew in my opinions and values, I do differ from you, but I do know that our faith in the Lord unites us.
I do not believe my faith to be deficient, even though I left the Catholic Church after years of faithful service.

Would you like to come back? Participation in this list is a good way to have your concerns addressed and come Home.

I do not believe your faith to be deficient as you remain in her, clinging to the Lord.
I do not believe my fellow Christian’s faith to be deficient, even though he or she might have been raised outside of the Catholic Church and has no intention on visibly uniting with her.

As long as we are united through faith in Jesus Christ we will, as His Church, shine His light through us, in all the facets of the individual believers as well as in all the facets of our different denominations.

This is really not the case as you have described it. I would honestly recommend that you write down what it was that caused you to leave Christ’s Church and forthrightly address this.

God bless

 

[vulcano37214]

So therefore you have not answered Tom Qualey’s question.

I suppose your exchange went like this:

Tom: What is 2 + 2?
Vulcano : Red roses are beautiful.

Tom did not ask “how is man saved?”. You answered a question different to the one being asked.

Sure i answered his question. He asked me where in scripture does it say that scripture contains everthing needed for salvation and i responded it does not say that.
I just added that all throughout scripture it tells us how to be saved.

by the way i think red roses are beutiful.

 

[vulcano37214]

That’s a good summary of the passover. The only problem with the above is that the bread is not a symbol, and neither was the wine. Jesus said this IS my body, this IS my blood.
Depends on how you understand salvation.

Salvation is to be transformed into the image of Christ. Some have this idea that somehow to be saved is to be plucked from the earth and taken to heaven.But it is not quite like that.

Jesus said that if you eat His Body and drink His blood you will have eternal life because the eating and the drinking of His flesh and blood will transform us.

This is what is called in the Eastern Church as Theosis which we translate as Deification.

Eating His Body and drinking His Blood changes us from within. Like the vine and branches, we become so united to Him that the Lifeblood that flows in Him now flows within us.

I have never heard the term salvation by communion but I think you are right there. It is salvation by communion, but this communion is only made possible by His dying and rising.

I think it all starts with being transformed by the Word of God.
James 1:18
18In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

Ephesians 1:13
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

James 1: 23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans 10:14-17
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Acts 2:37-41
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
40And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!”
41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Follow what Gods Word is saying about salvation. It all starts with Hearing the Gospel. That is where the Power is. Just like Paul says in Romans 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17For in it righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

As far as John 6 i do not think that Jesus was being literal there just as he was not being literal in Mathew 5:29
29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
1 corinthians 11:24-26
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Just as the all the other passovers in the past, they were to remember Gods deliverance from Egypt but now there are to remember Christ death burial and Resurrection

The Bible does not teach Salvation by communion, but teaches Salvation by Grace through Faith.

I understand that Catholics have to try and defend this teaching but it is just not based on proper interpretation of Scripture. But the Catholics need to be like the noble Bereans and they need to search the Scriptures to see if what the Catholic Church is telling them is true.

Acts 17
11Now these were more noble-minded than those in (X)Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

[mountaintop]

I think it all starts with being transformed by the Word of God.
James 1:18
18In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

Ephesians 1:13
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

James 1: 23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans 10:14-17
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Acts 2:37-41
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
40And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!”
41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Follow what Gods Word is saying about salvation. It all starts with Hearing the Gospel. That is where the Power is. Just like Paul says in Romans 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17For in it righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

As far as John 6 i do not think that Jesus was being literal there just as he was not being literal in Mathew 5:29
29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
1 corinthians 11:24-26
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Just as the all the other passovers in the past, they were to remember Gods deliverance from Egypt but now there are to remember Christ death burial and Resurrection

The Bible does not teach Salvation by communion, but teaches Salvation by Grace through Faith.

I understand that Catholics have to try and defend this teaching but it is just not based on proper interpretation of Scripture. But the Catholics need to be like the noble Bereans and they need to search the Scriptures to see if what the Catholic Church is telling them is true.

Acts 17
11Now these were more noble-minded than those in (X)Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

your right salvation does not come thru communion but thru jesus christ.
jesus christ comes thru communion in the eucharist at every catholic mass
everyone is invited into the upper room to share in the lambs supper.

 

[benedictus2]

Sure i answered his question. He asked me where in scripture does it say that scripture contains everthing needed for salvation and i responded it does not say that.
I just added that all throughout scripture it tells us how to be saved.

No you did not.

He asked you where in Scripture does it say that scripture contains EVERYTHING thaw we need to be saved. The verses you gave DID NOT SAY THAT.

by the way i think red roses are beutiful.

So do I.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi, Janet1983,

You have some interesting ideas here… let me address a couple.

This is really not the case as you have described it. I would honestly recommend that you write down what it was that caused you to leave Christ’s Church and forthrightly address this.

God bless

That is a very good advice not just for Janet for anyone who have been hurt, abused, mistreated by any member of the Catholic Church - clergy or laity.

It is important to make a distinction between some members and the Church herself.

If you belong to a very large family and one of your brothers did you wrong, you do not sever yourself from the entire family just because of the misdeed of a brother.

It also does not change the fact that God caused you to be born into this family with this set of siblings. These are God’s choices for you. The Church is God’s choice for us on how He will dispense with the graces bought and paid for by His life, death and resurrection.

To say no to His Church would be tantamount to saying I love you Lord but I do not agree with your choices for me and refuse to follow your will regarding this matter.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Vulcano,

At the risk of repeating myself … and, I guess I will take the risk… in Post #321, I advised you that YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION. Repeating that you did shows a profound disconnect.

So, either you did not understand this question or are simply evading the issue. So, let’s assume (again) it is a comprehension issue and move forward. Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is ALL YOU NEED FOR SALVATION? Now, where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is good, and necessary and beneficial - that is NOT THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION BEFORE YOU.

The real answer is that NOWHERE in Scripture does it say it is everything - but, you know it does say that Christ founded His Church on Peter and that the Holy Spirit would guide the Chruch of Christ (and that would be the Catholic Church) and the Gates of Hell would not prevail, and that WHATEVER Peter bound on earth was bound on earth - and in heaven. The Church is the Bride of Christ and Christ will not abandon His Bride. Luther saw fit to abandon her - contrast his bull-headed actions against those of St. Catherine of Siena two hundred years prior to Luther. There is no reason to assume that Luther was unaware of St. Catherine’s actions to reform the Church - yet, he chose his own path over the cliff.

By the way, all through Scripture Chrsit tells us what He wants us to do:

1.) Come follow me.
2.) Sell what you have, give it to the poor and follow me
3.) Obey the Commandments
… and then … ready for this …?

4.) Be baptized - into the Catholic Church - you know, the One He founded on Matt 16:18
5.) Eat the Flesh of Christ and drink His Blood if we are to have eternal life (John 6)

I could go on - but the bottom line is really simple: Christ founded His Church and no one else founded it in the 16th Century for Him. And, that is the name of that tune.

God bless

Sure i answered his question. He asked me where in scripture does it say that scripture contains everthing needed for salvation and i responded it does not say that.
I just added that all throughout scripture it tells us how to be saved.

by the way i think red roses are beutiful.

 

[vulcano37214]

Good post

Something that you did not extend though was the part about the consumation of the marriage.

The marital union is the closest bond between the man and the woman. How do you relate this to Christ and His bride the Church. At which point is the person very intimately united to Christ?

When the Church is taken to the Fathers house in heaven we will enter in spiritual union with Christ thereby consummating the relationship which Christ covenanted with the Church over 1900 years ago.

 

[vulcano37214]

Hi, Vulcano,

At the risk of repeating myself … and, I guess I will take the risk… in Post #321, I advised you that YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION. Repeating that you did shows a profound disconnect.

So, either you did not understand this question or are simply evading the issue. So, let’s assume (again) it is a comprehension issue and move forward. Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is ALL YOU NEED FOR SALVATION? Now, where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is good, and necessary and beneficial - that is NOT THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION BEFORE YOU.

The real answer is that NOWHERE in Scripture does it say it is everything - but, you know it does say that Christ founded His Church on Peter and that the Holy Spirit would guide the Chruch of Christ (and that would be the Catholic Church) and the Gates of Hell would not prevail, and that WHATEVER Peter bound on earth was bound on earth - and in heaven. The Church is the Bride of Christ and Christ will not abandon His Bride. Luther saw fit to abandon her - contrast his bull-headed actions against those of St. Catherine of Siena two hundred years prior to Luther. There is no reason to assume that Luther was unaware of St. Catherine’s actions to reform the Church - yet, he chose his own path over the cliff.

By the way, all through Scripture Chrsit tells us what He wants us to do:

1.) Come follow me.
2.) Sell what you have, give it to the poor and follow me
3.) Obey the Commandments
… and then … ready for this …?

4.) Be baptized - into the Catholic Church - you know, the One He founded on Matt 16:18
5.) Eat the Flesh of Christ and drink His Blood if we are to have eternal life (John 6)

I could go on - but the bottom line is really simple: Christ founded His Church and no one else founded it in the 16th Century for Him. And, that is the name of that tune.

God bless

i answered the question for the third time, You asked me where in scripture does it say scripture is all we need for salvation. And i answered that it does not say that in scripture. What it does say in Scripture is how a man can be saved.

I would like to respond to a few of your comments. Where in the Bible does it say Catholic Church? Lets start with the word Church and its biblical meaning. The called out ones.
ἐκκλησία (ekklēsia 1577)

1. church
   the common term for a meeting of the ἔκκλητοι (ekklētoi) (those summoned) to discuss the affairs of a Free State; the body of citizens summoned together by a herald (κῆρυξ (kērux 2783)). The Greek translation of the Old Test. transfer the term to the assembly of the people of Israel, whether summoned or met for a definite purpose (1Ki 8:65), or considered as the representative of the entire nation. In NT it denotes the redeemed community in its two-fold aspect. (i) The entire community of all who are called by and to Christ out of the world, the Church universal (ii) every Church in which the character of the Church as a whole is seen in miniature. The summoning is expressed by the latter part of the word (καλεῖν (kalein)), and out of by the first part (ἐκ (ek 1537)). It does not occur in Joh 1 and 2Jo 2 Timothy, Titus, Jude (this specific meaning occurs only in Act 19:32,39,41). Reference(s)

Where in the Bible does it say you have to be baptized into the Catholic Church?

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

1 peter 4:16
16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.
I guess God could have used the word Catholic and cleared this up
they were called Christians

The Roman Catholic Church unofficially came into being in 312 ad under the Roman emporer Constantine who converted to christianity. And it is steeped in paganism. I am sure you can find this out by doing some simple research. they have taken a lot of the pagan rituals and mixed them with christianity. I can hardly imagine the our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ would have embraced this. Instead of following something blindly you should do what the noble bereans did and searched the scriptures to see if what the Catholic Church is telling you is true. And i think you will find out it is not.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Vulcano,

Not only have I done research … I will share it with you - and in English, too! I don’t understand Greek.

i answered the question for the third time, You asked me where in scripture does it say scripture is all we need for salvation. And i answered that it does not say that in scripture. What it does say in Scripture is how a man can be saved.

I am delighted to hear that - no basis for Sola Scriptura - besides an active imagination

I would like to respond to a few of your comments. Where in the Bible does it say Catholic Church?

The term “Catholic Church” (just like terms: Trinity, Christian, Protestant, Fundamentalist, or Lutheran does not appear in the Bible. Actually, the only two religions to my knowledge that appears in the Bible are: Jewish - and followers of The Way that Saul persecuted. So, what is your point? No religion exists today by the name “The Way” And, are we to become Jewish because it is the only so-called named remianing religion? I don’t think so … and, I bet, you don’t either. This is a classic non-sense argument you have presented because it has no real meaning or significance.

I am familiar with the biblical meanings of church that you quoted. The problem is that there is more to the progression of this term and while you went from Moses to Titus - it really did not stop there.

Where in the Bible does it say you have to be baptized into the Catholic Church?

Well, Vulcano, this is really a slight variation on the first argument you presented. Since the term ‘Catholic Church’ does not exist in the Scriptures - just like the other names I provided to you - this is not a valid argument. What I submit is that there appears to be a real gap in historical perspective as if from 100AD with the death of John to the 16th Century no continuation of Christ’s message of salvation existed. This is not to say nothing existed - for you provide your view of Constintine’s contribution (and I will get to that shortly).

Just what do you think Christ did in Matt 16:18? Let me help you here: God the Father selected Peter from the 12 and gave Peter the correct answer to Christ’s question. Christ acknowledged Peter’s receipt of Divine Revelation and said He would build His Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) on him - and his successors - and, that the Gates of Hell would not prevail.

Christ, the Cornerstone, used Peter as the Foundation of the Catholic Church. Notice, it did not die or dissolve at the death of Peter in 67AD or even of John in 100AD. The Church continued to grow and develop - as it does to this very day following Christ’s Great Commission given at the end of Matthew’s Gospel. But, the only way we are going to see the development of Christ’s message throughout the world is to accept that the Bible is not the only source of historical information. Since you have agreed that Sola Scriptura is invalid, agreeing that the Bible does not contain all history follows in a logical manner.

Now, the name Catholic Church was identified by St. Ignatius of Antioch in about 150AD. There is an interesting history of this - wirtten by a former Evangelical on this very subject - here is the link: catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0501fea4.asp

If this Church founded by Christ (on Peter) is seen as a growing and developing Life - then a lot of things make sense. If one tries to see it as appearing fully developed at any point in the NT, then there is an obvious distortion. Christ told us that He had more to tell the Apostles but they could not bear at that time (John 16:12).

I guess God could have used the word Catholic and cleared this up they were called Christians

I guess you can reference where in Scripture the term “Christians” is used? Please do so.

The Roman Catholic Church unofficially came into being in 312 ad under the Roman emporer Constantine who converted to christianity. And it is steeped in paganism. I am sure you can find this out by doing some simple research. they have taken a lot of the pagan rituals and mixed them with christianity. I can hardly imagine the our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ would have embraced this. Instead of following something blindly you should do what the noble bereans did and searched the scriptures to see if what the Catholic Church is telling you is true. And i think you will find out it is not.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Vulcano, you are trying to use your imagination here - when some unbiased research is what is needed. You see, Constintine is famous for several things - but, creating a religion is not one of them, and this is where an honest sense of history comes in. The Catholic Church was under active persecution from the very beginning. Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone was crucified under the Romans - as was Peter 30 years later. John, the only Apostle not to die at the hands of persecutors, died in exile under Roman sentence. But, the persecutions did not stop there - they carried on with various amounts of vigor until Constantine ended these state-sponsored mass murders. For a more in-depth look at this subject, here is a helpful link: catholic.com/library/Fundamentalist_or_Catholic.asp Ultimately, what is required of all of us is to be honest in our dealings with others. God bless

 

[benedictus2]

Janet1983:

I honestly do not believe my faith to be deficient. I am however not certain whether you wished to imply that.

No one to my knowledge is judging your faith. I, however, am questioning your logic on** how you can claim to follow Christ as a ‘slave’ yet pick and chose which of His commands you will ‘submit’ to. **

This is exactly what has puzzled me about Janet’s avatar. I have been meaning to ask her about this with exactly the same point you raised.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[benedictus2]

**I think it all starts with being transformed by the Word of God.
**James 1:18 ,…
Ephesians 1:13 …
James 1: 23 …
Romans 10:14-17
Acts 2:37-41

Hearing the Word of God is indeed the beginning of Transformation.

But God has a greater plan. To complete this transformation, He gives us His flesh to eat. This is something He was very clear about, that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you will not have life within you. Eating His Flesh is essential to Eternal life.

His Flesh is not equivalent to the Word.

That is why at Mass we have the proclamation of the Word which you rightly put, has the power to transform. Then it is followed by eating Eucharist and communion where we obey His command to eat His Flesh and drink His blood.

Follow what Gods Word is saying about salvation. It all starts with Hearing the Gospel. That is where the Power is. Just like Paul says in Romans 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

You used the correct word there - starts. Something else follows.

As far as John 6 i do not think that Jesus was being literal there just as he was not being literal in Mathew 5:29

Actually, He was being literal there. I suggest you read John 6 in full.

If there was any discourse where Christ was quite adamant about what He meant, it was this one. I think He repeated the (eat my flesh, drink my blood) theme about 5 times. And His listeners understood Him correctly. That is why they left.

Now these were His disciples. They are used to Jesus teachings which are quite revolutionary. They’ve seen Him perform miracles. As a matter of fact, John situated this discourse right after the multiplication of bread miracle.

And yet, after seeing all that, they walked away, because they just could not stomach (pun intended) what He was teaching.

So you are quite wrong here. Jesus meant what He said. And the early Christians, the ones closest to the apostles interpreted it this way.

1 corinthians 11:24-26
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Let us refer back to the Gospel.

Matthew 26:26-28While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "**Drink from it, all of you, for **this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

Just as the all the other passovers in the past, they were to remember Gods deliverance from Egypt but now there are to remember Christ death burial and Resurrection

The Bible does not teach Salvation by communion, but teaches Salvation by Grace through Faith.

The Bible does teach salvation by Grace. But **communion with Christ is in itself the most wonderful Grace **God has bestowed on man. A man who truly has faith in Christ will be given this tremendous grace of being able to commune with Him so intimately that he is eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

As I explained re John 6, t**hose who truly had faith in Christ are the ones who remained - the Apostles. **They got the chance to eath His flesh and drink His blood at the Last Supper. Those who did not have enough faith in Christ walked away so missed out on this incredible grace.

I understand that Catholics have to try and defend this teaching but it is just not based on proper interpretation of Scripture.

Oh no, yours is the one that is not based on the correct interpretation of scripture. Remember, the 1st generation Christians, those who knew the apostles, believed what Catholics believe now about the Eucharist.

The very first dissent from this understanding came only in the year 1100 when Berengarius gave this wrong interpretation. And straight away, the Church said no that is wrong. Up to the time of Luther, all Christians interpreted scripture this way.

Now who is more credible, those who came 1600 years later or those who were instructed by the apostles as to what it truly meant?

But the Catholics need to be like the noble Bereans and they need to search the Scriptures to see if what the Catholic Church is telling them is true.

Well of course the Catholic tests scripture. After all it was the Catholic Church who gave us the Bible.

Do you know how the Bible came to be? I mean including the New Testament?

There were so many books that were written at that time. Who decided which ones will be included and which one not? The Catholic Church. And their yardstick was Tradition.

If you are serious about your love for Christ, read the Bible in its entirety. Do not skip the problematic passages. Do not gloss over it. Also read history. But read real history, not the sort of manufactured ones that some Evangelicals peddle.

It would surprise you to know how much lies they manufactured. Now ask yourself this, would these people really be followers of Christ if they concoct lies and spread them. Does it not look more like they are following the father of lies - the devil.

 

[benedictus2]

When the Church is taken to the Fathers house in heaven we will enter in spiritual union with Christ thereby consummating the relationship which Christ covenanted with the Church over 1900 years ago.

If we are married to Him now surely the union happens now. This is what we call communion.