Why I go the extraordinary form of the Mass

[CradleCath]

CradleCath,

I recently had this conversation with my daughter when I lit a vigil light for my aunt who was dying of brain cancer. I think your explanation was excellent. Even if he did not fully understand the symbolism, he was a part of it and the seed was planted. Perhaps in his future he will remember this lovely and symbolic custom and he will draw on it to bring him solace in time of need.

Thank you, so much. I am 68 yrs. old & still remember the first candle I was allowed to light myself. I was 9 yrs. old & my Grandmother had just died very unexpectedly. My Mother was only 36 yrs. old & took it hard. (That’s very young to lose a parent.) She would be going about her housework & I’d see the tears form in her eyes. It worried me & I spoke to my Father about it & I’ll never forget, he said, “Lets go say a few prayers for your Mom”.

He took me across the street to our Church & let me light a candle for Mom. All week, when I’d see Mother sadden, I’d remember my candle & it gave me comfort. I do want the same for my Grandchildren.

 

[Momofmyangels]

Thank you, so much. I am 68 yrs. old & still remember the first candle I was allowed to light myself. I was 9 yrs. old & my Grandmother had just died very unexpectedly. My Mother was only 36 yrs. old & took it hard. (That’s very young to lose a parent.) She would be going about her housework & I’d see the tears form in her eyes. It worried me & I spoke to my Father about it & I’ll never forget, he said, “Lets go say a few prayers for your Mom”.

He took me across the street to our Church & let me light a candle for Mom. All week, when I’d see Mother sadden, I’d remember my candle & it gave me comfort. I do want the same for my Grandchildren.

You know, the circumstances that brought about the need for the lit candle were sad, but what a lovely memory! Your grandchildren are truly blessed to have a grandmother who cares enough to pass down these customs/traditions to them.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I think you people are looking at it from the wrong perspective

There were many lukewarm Catholics in the TLM when the TLM was the only Mass. Now that the OF is the norm and is celebrated in most parishes, those lukewarm to the faith would go to the OF Mass. Only the devout will seek the EF Mass. I think its a wrong conclusion to say that the EF Mass goers become more reverent because of the EF. The fact is that it is the devout Catholics who seek the EF, thus those who are in the EF Masses today are reverent to begin with.

I would agree. Now…isn’t it nice that we put up with all the distractions for you so you can really enjoy the EF?

Although…I’m not really going to Mass for my feelings. I’ve done the “I didn’t enjoy the music or I didn’t like the preacher” thing in Protestant churches for way too long. One thing I’ve learned…not to trust my feelings:shrug:

 

[ConstantineTG]

I would agree. Now…isn’t it nice that we put up with all the distractions for you so you can really enjoy the EF?

Although…I’m not really going to Mass for my feelings. I’ve done the “I didn’t enjoy the music or I didn’t like the preacher” thing in Protestant churches for way too long. One thing I’ve learned…not to trust my feelings:shrug:

I don’t go to the EF

I just see it a common comment by people here that people in the EF Mass are more reverent. I think people who attend EF Mass are devout and already reverent even before the get to the church. So naturally those in the Mass will be more reverent. Its not a byproduct of the Mass as there were lukewarm Catholics in the TLM when TLM was the norm.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I don’t go to the EF

I just see it a common comment by people here that people in the EF Mass are more reverent. I think people who attend EF Mass are devout and already reverent even before the get to the church. So naturally those in the Mass will be more reverent. Its not a byproduct of the Mass as there were lukewarm Catholics in the TLM when TLM was the norm.

I’m sorry–I should have made that clear…I was talking about everyone who does prefer the EF and is worried about distractions.

I totally agree with your line of thinking. Changing to EF only would not produce only reverent Masses.

 

[CradleCath]

I don’t go to the EF

I just see it a common comment by people here that people in the EF Mass are more reverent. I think people who attend EF Mass are devout and already reverent even before the get to the church. So naturally those in the Mass will be more reverent. Its not a byproduct of the Mass as there were lukewarm Catholics in the TLM when TLM was the norm.

I’m not sure how many years you spent as a member of the pre-Vatican II Church, that would allow you to judge how many people were “lukewarm” during that time.

Suffice it to say…lukewarm Catholics don’t ususally attend Mass regularly. period. A 1958 Gallup poll reported that 74 percent of Catholics went to Sunday Mass in 1958. A 1994 University of Notre Dame study found B]that the attendance rate was 26.6 percent.

 

[floresco]

But the “theology” of the OF is fully approved by the Vatican and is thus valid. To state you are facing flawed theology in the OF is indeed not only denigrating the OF, but also leveling serious charges at the Church herself who continues, through her hierarchy, to maintain the OF as a fully valid form of the Mass for the Roman Rite. So is your issue with “questionable theology” directed at the theology of the OF itself, or towards liturgical abuses that themselves are questionable theology? The latter I will concede is an issue in many places where the OF is said. The former is a far more serious assertion, and one that made me stand up and take note of your final statement in your OP, realizing that it appeared to be an inconsistency.

I have never, either here or elsewhere, questioned the validity of the OF. Nor did I state that I am facing flawed theology. What I actually said about theology of the OF is “even though I think the prayers lack the doctrinal clarity of the EF, that would not be enough of a reason for me by itself.” I neither used the term “flawed theology” nor “questionable theology”. I said its theology is less clear, but not enough that it would be a reason for me to avoid the OF.

Since you have already admitted that you did not read my OP carefully, perhaps you should reread it and pay more attention this time.

 

[CradleCath]

I have never, either here or elsewhere, questioned the validity of the OF. Nor did I state that I am facing flawed theology. What I actually said about theology of the OF is “even though I think the prayers lack the doctrinal clarity of the EF, that would not be enough of a reason for me by itself.” I neither used the term “flawed theology” nor “questionable theology”. I said its theology is less clear, but not enough that it would be a reason for me to avoid the OF.

Since you have already admitted that you did not read my OP carefully, perhaps you should reread it and pay more attention this time.

Dear Floresco, you started a great thread here & it’s being derailed by people who seem to be thin-skinned. Let’s just try to explain “Why we go to the TLM.” & let the nay-sayers go. It would probably be best just to say that the Theology of the Novus Ordo is DIFFERENT than that of the TLM. because it is different & keep ouselves out of the “which Mass is best” debate.

I believe that your heart is good, that you meant no criticism of the Novus Ordo, & that you started this thread as a means of simply finding WHY so many attend the EF.:hug3:

Now, back to the subject at hand. One of the reasons that I attend the TLM. is that only at certain times during the Mass does the priest turn to face the people: when greeting them with the “Dominus vobiscum” (“The Lord be with you”), when blessing them, and when preaching to them from the pulpit. You’ll also notice that the priest prays in different tones: secret, medium and clear. Indeed, not all prayers in the Mass are meant to be heard by the faithful. Rather, the priest often speaks directly to God on behalf of Man.

That is one of my own favorite things…the knowledge that the Priest, as he faces the crucifix hanging above the “holy of holies” i.e. the Tabernacle… is praying for ME…for me to be made one with the Sacrifice (Christ) Who is being offered to God.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m not sure how many years you spent as a member of the pre-Vatican II Church, that would allow you to judge how many people were “lukewarm” during that time.

Suffice it to say…lukewarm Catholics don’t ususally attend Mass regularly. period. A 1958 Gallup poll reported that 74 percent of Catholics went to Sunday Mass in 1958. A 1994 University of Notre Dame study found B]that the attendance rate was 26.6 percent.

So what makes you think that those who didn’t attend the TLM pre-V2 would suddenly attend the Pauline Mass? If they didn’t attend then, they won’t attend now. So they’re out of the question.

I’m talking about people who attend because their parents says so, or they were dragged by their spouses and other members of the family.

 

[GODISLOVE1970]

How I adore any and all Catholic Masses!!! However, the Latin Masses are SO BEAUTIFUL!!! Just this past weekend I wasn’t hearing too much from the Holy Spirit and was kind of sad - I went to a Latin Mass on Sunday morning and when the Priest was whispering at the altar I could feel the HOLY SPIRIT who was totally moved by this beauty and I was on a total high the rest of the day - HOW BEAUTIFUL THE LATIN MASSES are. I totally trance while I am in those Masses - and it only takes a few minutes to get into the TRANCELIKE STATE and then TOTAL ECSTASY FOLLOWS - so BEAUTIFUL!!! :bible1:

 

[OraLabora]

I have never, either here or elsewhere, questioned the validity of the OF. Nor did I state that I am facing flawed theology. What I actually said about theology of the OF is “even though I think the prayers lack the doctrinal clarity of the EF, that would not be enough of a reason for me by itself.” I neither used the term “flawed theology” nor “questionable theology”. I said its theology is less clear, but not enough that it would be a reason for me to avoid the OF.

Since you have already admitted that you did not read my OP carefully, perhaps you should reread it and pay more attention this time.

Sorry, my bad, I completely missed the word “hymns” in

AT the EF I am not distracted by hymns of questionable theology

I humbly apologize. I do agree with you that there are many that use hymns of questionable theology in the OF. For that matter using hymns at Mass except maybe at the offertory is in itself questionable. Hymns are proper to the Divine Office and not the Mass, which should draw its music from the Propers (which is the case at the OF I go to), or the simpler antiphons from the Graduale Simplex (I’m talking OF here). In fact the traditional Latin hymns of the Divine Office were designed to teach correct theology and go back to the 5th century.

 

[floresco]

I humbly apologize. I do agree with you that there are many that use hymns of questionable theology in the OF. For that matter using hymns at Mass except maybe at the offertory is in itself questionable.

I accept your apology and I agree with your comments about hymns. And I offer an apology of my own. My tone was too snippy and I’m sorry.

 

[floresco]

That is one of my own favorite things…the knowledge that the Priest, as he faces the crucifix hanging above the “holy of holies” i.e. the Tabernacle… is praying for ME…for me to be made one with the Sacrifice (Christ) Who is being offered to God.

Yes, I like this too. I am speechless, helpless, totally dependent on God. And God provides the perfect Sacrifice offered by the perfect Priest. That God would do this for me, and, as if that were not enough, make it present to me at the Mass and include me, is overwhelming. I am silent in the face of incomprehensible Mystery.

 

[CradleCath]

How I adore any and all Catholic Masses!!! However, the Latin Masses are SO BEAUTIFUL!!! Just this past weekend I wasn’t hearing too much from the Holy Spirit and was kind of sad - I went to a Latin Mass on Sunday morning and when the Priest was whispering at the altar I could feel the HOLY SPIRIT who was totally moved by this beauty and I was on a total high the rest of the day - HOW BEAUTIFUL THE LATIN MASSES are. I totally trance while I am in those Masses - and it only takes a few minutes to get into the TRANCELIKE STATE and then TOTAL ECSTASY FOLLOWS - so BEAUTIFUL!!! :bible1:

Twice I have cried silentlty during the TLM. Once during the first one I attended since 1969 & the second time was my first Christmas morning Mass after SP. had once again allowed this Mass to be part of my life. You said that you were on a “high”. I know what you mean, the way the TLM. lifts one up beyond the “everydayness” of life…it’s not to be explained with words.

 

[OraLabora]

I accept your apology and I agree with your comments about hymns. And I offer an apology of my own. My tone was too snippy and I’m sorry.

Thank you apology accepted. Now we can kiss and make up (don’t worry, the French kiss on each cheek kind, nothing lewd )

 

[Robert_Burns]

It is not misleading. I’m speaking from the perspective of a Catholic who’s devotion to the faith is less than where it should be. To tell you the truth, many Catholics today are unaware that Latin is the universal Language of the Latin Church. Many are even unaware there is a Traditional Latin Mass. Fact is, those who are lukewarm to the faith are either ill informed, or doesn’t care to get informed themselves. Thats just the fact of life. We can’t expect everyone to have the same level of knowledge in anything.

I disagree. Anyone can follow a Mass with a Missal. I use a St Josephs Daily Missal. I dont speak Latin. But once you go to a few Latin Masses - its simple. If you can read you can follow along.

I’ll give you and example. Its like saying - no one can use a cell phone. Because its an intricate piece of electronic equipment. And yet in reality , although it is an intricate piece of electronic equipment - we see people of all ages using them dont we. Some people may not know all the functions possible - but they know enough to make and recieve a call on one. To me , its the same argument. The Latin Mass isnt complicated at all. And you dont need to know Latin to go to one.

 

[Victorious]

I disagree. Anyone can follow a Mass with a Missal. I use a St Josephs Daily Missal. I dont speak Latin. But once you go to a few Latin Masses - its simple. If you can read you can follow along.

I’ll give you and example. Its like saying - no one can use a cell phone. Because its an intricate piece of electronic equipment. And yet in reality , although it is an intricate piece of electronic equipment - we see people of all ages using them dont we. Some people may not know all the functions possible - but they know enough to make and recieve a call on one. To me , its the same argument. The Latin Mass isnt complicated at all. And you dont need to know Latin to go to one.

All true! The TLM is not hard. It takes a little getting used to after a lifetime of the Novus Ordo, but most of the best things in life are to be found outside our comfort zones.

The problem is not with the TLM or that the TLM is in Latin or that it is “complicated.” The problem is that mediocrity has become a religion, the central tenet of which is that everything must be dumbed down and all expectations have to be lowered to the point where they’re already met. There is this presumption that people are somehow incapable of learning new things, or understanding new things, or of going higher or deeper. This ought to be regarded as insulting.

 

[Victorious]

By the way, for more reasons for attending the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, I highly recommond Liturgy and Personality by Dietrich von Hildebrand. This was written in about 1943, so the liturgy he is talking about is the TLM and the pre-conciliar Divine Office.

 

[georgewithfaith]

Floresco, your original post puts it well why one would want to drive a long ways to attend the EF of the Mass. The EF Mass is in my opinion superior to the OF of the Mass. The OF Mass is a valid Mass however. In my view the Mass should express our holiest form of worship. That Mass is the EF because the focus is on Jesus not on us. The OF Mass has many problems that leads us to distraction. The priest’s role is reduced in the OF.

In many cases those who attend the OF think of Mass as a celebration. Those who attend the EF think of Mass as the sacrifice of the cross. Great Saints have sung the praises of the EF. Clear Church teaching is given at an EF homily. At an OF homily the priest or deacon wants to be careful not to offend anyone so they preach a feel good fuzzy Church teaching.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I disagree. Anyone can follow a Mass with a Missal. I use a St Josephs Daily Missal. I dont speak Latin. But once you go to a few Latin Masses - its simple. If you can read you can follow along.

I’ll give you and example. Its like saying - no one can use a cell phone. Because its an intricate piece of electronic equipment. And yet in reality , although it is an intricate piece of electronic equipment - we see people of all ages using them dont we. Some people may not know all the functions possible - but they know enough to make and recieve a call on one. To me , its the same argument. The Latin Mass isnt complicated at all. And you dont need to know Latin to go to one.

See, you’re missing the point. If one is lukewarm to the faith, they don’t want to make it more complicated than it already is for them. They show up because they show up. For them its a once-a-week prayer. Why would they make it more difficult for themselves? Its not a question of can it be done or not. It can be done, they just don’t want to because of the state of their faith. Like I compared it to Japanese Anime. An avid Japanese Anime fan would want to watch in the original Japanese with subtitles. A casual viewer wouldn’t want to labor through the subtitles. Can he do it? Yes. Does he want to? No. Because to them they just want to watch the show, so that can be achieved by watching it in english dub. Same for a lukewarm Catholic. They just want to attend a Mass, so why put more effort into it when they can easily go to a Mass that is in a language that they can understand and more readily available?