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Edward_H
Guest
No. You’re wrong. Here is what formal Church teaching says “Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.” CCC
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Edward_H
Guest
If you don’t know what causes it, then you cannot rule out volition.
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Debora123
Guest
No, actually YOU are wrong. Why don’t you just accept that? Seriously. Ask an apologist or something. Ask any knowledgeable Catholic. Why in the world would Catholicism teach that homosexual orientation is not a sin, if we didn’t know for sure that it is not freely chosen?
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Edward_H
Guest
You have a glaring problem with basic logic. If you can’t rule something out, which the Church HAS NOT DONE, then it remains part of the set of hypotheses. If other “derivations” of sexual activity and preferences also appear to have volition and choice as part of their behavior pattern (like adultery, fetishes, swinging, bisexuality, etc.), then it’s only logical to keep “volition” in the total set of available causes to explain homosexuality.
As a courtesy to you - since across a too large set of postings - you have to have the last word - this is my last posting to you on this subject. Have at it. You can’t resist, and if you do this time, well done.
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Debora123
Guest
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BingoBoy
Guest
The Church teaches that having a homosexual orientation is not a sin because it is not freely chosen.
But engaging in homosexual behavior is and will always be, a sin.
A homosexual person must remain chaste like the rest of us.
But engaging in homosexual behavior is and will always be, a sin.
A homosexual person must remain chaste like the rest of us.
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Edward_H
Guest
The Church hasn’t conclusively spoken about the why of what some people call ‘orientation’.
See the Catechism. It’s right there.
There’s just way too much opinion, assumptions, and indirect assertions here.
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Debora123
Guest
All the Catechism says is that the causes of homosexuality are unknown. No one here is denying that.
The catechism also says that homosexual people CAN approach Christian perfection. They can approach Christian perfection because being homosexual is not a sin, and it is not a sin because it is not a choice.
This is not an opinion or an assumption. Church teaches that having a homosexual orientation is not a sin/choice:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=304322
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Debora123
Guest
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OscarsMama
Guest
OP: That was, perhaps, one of the most thoughtful posts. Very inspirational and well written.
To all others: :banghead::slapfight:
To all others: :banghead::slapfight:
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Debora, I don’t want to be argumentative; I just want to distinguish between a couple of things, as Edward has also been trying to do.
Now, as a practical matter, because all sexuality is complex, as Melinda has eloquently stated, and also because there’s a lot of unconscious formation going on, the kind of “point-in-time” choice that most people associate with the term “choosing” is not necessarily distinctly traceable to individual will in the case of sexual orientation. (Consciously willing to be heterosexual, consciously willing to be homosexual.) But that’s not the same thing as saying that choice is not involved at any level for any person, that choice is not a factor, or can never be a factor. And again the reference point is sexual orientation not sexual behavior. Drifting into behaviors can be the result of a series of incremental choices, and behaviors also change us, often incrementally, so that what we do, as a product of a series of choices, becomes part of our self-concept (including what we’re attracted to).
Here’s the text. Nothing in there about choice. Only about unkown etiology.
Correct of course. And noted below, in the Catechism citation.
The bolded part is not in the Catechism, and cannot be concluded as a universal generalization. “It” (the attraction) is not a sin because in themselves attractions are not sins; only action (behavior, including thoughts, and including even omitted behavior) on various attractions, temptations, and disorders can be sinful.
Now, as a practical matter, because all sexuality is complex, as Melinda has eloquently stated, and also because there’s a lot of unconscious formation going on, the kind of “point-in-time” choice that most people associate with the term “choosing” is not necessarily distinctly traceable to individual will in the case of sexual orientation. (Consciously willing to be heterosexual, consciously willing to be homosexual.) But that’s not the same thing as saying that choice is not involved at any level for any person, that choice is not a factor, or can never be a factor. And again the reference point is sexual orientation not sexual behavior. Drifting into behaviors can be the result of a series of incremental choices, and behaviors also change us, often incrementally, so that what we do, as a product of a series of choices, becomes part of our self-concept (including what we’re attracted to).
Here’s the text. Nothing in there about choice. Only about unkown etiology.
And I will note that lots of Catholics, including those who write books and others besides yourself who post on CAF, get this wrong. They also conclude that “unknown” = no control, no choice, but these are not equivalent in the dynamic of attraction.
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raaucoin
Guest
As Jesus told the story of the prodigal son, I wonder if he decided to edit it for brevity’s sake. I wonder how long it really took to get to the feast. Surely there was a moment when the son, his brother and their father stood out in the driveway before going inside and argued about the initial cause of the son’s sin. Was he just innately prideful, was it his mom’s fault(notice she isn’t even mentioned-maybe dad ran her off for messing up the kids) maybe it was because the brother had been uncharitable and the kid just couldn’t form healthy relationships. Maybe the son got the idea of going and blowing his part of the family fortune from eavesdropping on the servants as they talked about what they’d do and where they’d go and it sounded appealing to the kid.
Maybe Jesus knew the point was not what caused the sin but the father’s joy at his return. Or heaven forbid, are they all still standing in the driveway arguing, while the feast is going on and to make His point Jesus took artistic license and changed the ending.
At this stage of the thread the original point has been obscured with what is and isn’t a sin, what is and isn’t a choice. I knew there would be some who disagreed with my original explanation.I actually respect those who do so with true charity. And in fact some of your posts have given me some things to think about.And though the “title” of this thread addresses one part of my journey, it is a part of it. The bigger story here is I (like many others) was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see. And my Father has prepared a banquet for me(for us). I’m heading up the drive-way and I’m gonna invite anyone I find along the way to come in( the invitation says bring a friend).
If anyone isn’t dressed properly, I’ll suggest they change their clothes. If they refuse, but want to come in anyway, I’m going to let the Host address it with them.
Our Church speaks clearly re: what is a sin and what isn’t. You agree on that. What you don’t seem to agree on is what the Church herself says remains largely unexplained. And she doesn’t try to present any argument one way or the other. I’m gonna follow her lead. Chicken or the egg- who cares give me my omelette!I’m going in for the feast, anyone coming? If not, the guests are arriving, can you move the argument to the side of the house so that those who might want to come in can get by?!?:
Maybe Jesus knew the point was not what caused the sin but the father’s joy at his return. Or heaven forbid, are they all still standing in the driveway arguing, while the feast is going on and to make His point Jesus took artistic license and changed the ending.
At this stage of the thread the original point has been obscured with what is and isn’t a sin, what is and isn’t a choice. I knew there would be some who disagreed with my original explanation.I actually respect those who do so with true charity. And in fact some of your posts have given me some things to think about.And though the “title” of this thread addresses one part of my journey, it is a part of it. The bigger story here is I (like many others) was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see. And my Father has prepared a banquet for me(for us). I’m heading up the drive-way and I’m gonna invite anyone I find along the way to come in( the invitation says bring a friend).
If anyone isn’t dressed properly, I’ll suggest they change their clothes. If they refuse, but want to come in anyway, I’m going to let the Host address it with them.
Our Church speaks clearly re: what is a sin and what isn’t. You agree on that. What you don’t seem to agree on is what the Church herself says remains largely unexplained. And she doesn’t try to present any argument one way or the other. I’m gonna follow her lead. Chicken or the egg- who cares give me my omelette!I’m going in for the feast, anyone coming? If not, the guests are arriving, can you move the argument to the side of the house so that those who might want to come in can get by?!?:
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Debora123
Guest
The problem is some people refuse to believe certain things unless they are spelled out word per word in some sort of Church Doctrine.
They don’t seem to have the capacity to put 2 and 2 together and think “hey, the Church says having a homosexual orientation is not a sin. This indicates that the Church has acknowledged the fact that a homosexual person doesn’t choose to have that orientation… which would explain why the Church deems it as not being a sin.”
Also, they don’t look at common sense and logic. How is it possible that an ordinary person would just wake up one morning and make the conscious decision to be attracted to members of the same sex?
Not to mention, homosexuals have said time and time again that they didn’t chose to be that way. Of course, they are homosexuals, meaning they are probably liars too, right?
I wonder what a homosexual person would say to the idea that they chose to be that way. Especially a homosexual person who is living chastely and striving to follow Christ.
They don’t seem to have the capacity to put 2 and 2 together and think “hey, the Church says having a homosexual orientation is not a sin. This indicates that the Church has acknowledged the fact that a homosexual person doesn’t choose to have that orientation… which would explain why the Church deems it as not being a sin.”
Also, they don’t look at common sense and logic. How is it possible that an ordinary person would just wake up one morning and make the conscious decision to be attracted to members of the same sex?
Not to mention, homosexuals have said time and time again that they didn’t chose to be that way. Of course, they are homosexuals, meaning they are probably liars too, right?
I wonder what a homosexual person would say to the idea that they chose to be that way. Especially a homosexual person who is living chastely and striving to follow Christ.
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Debora123
Guest
You are way too nice, lol. I get angry when I see injustice and when good people are being accused of sinning when they are not.As Jesus told the story of the prodigal son, I wonder if he decided to edit it for brevity’s sake. I wonder how long it really took to get to the feast. Surely there was a moment when the son, his brother and their father stood out in the driveway before going inside and argued about the initial cause of the son’s sin. Was he just innately prideful, was it his mom’s fault(notice she isn’t even mentioned-maybe dad ran her off for messing up the kids) maybe it was because the brother had been uncharitable and the kid just couldn’t form healthy relationships. Maybe the son got the idea of going and blowing his part of the family fortune from eavesdropping on the servants as they talked about what they’d do and where they’d go and it sounded appealing to the kid.
Maybe Jesus knew the point was not what caused the sin but the father’s joy at his return. Or heaven forbid, are they all still standing in the driveway arguing, while the feast is going on and to make His point Jesus took artistic license and changed the ending.
At this stage of the thread the original point has been obscured with what is and isn’t a sin, what is and isn’t a choice. I knew there would be some who disagreed with my original explanation.I actually respect those who do so with true charity. And in fact some of your posts have given me some things to think about.And though the “title” of this thread addresses one part of my journey, it is a part of it. The bigger story here is I (like many others) was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see. And my Father has prepared a banquet for me(for us). I’m heading up the drive-way and I’m gonna invite anyone I find along the way to come in( the invitation says bring a friend).
If anyone isn’t dressed properly, I’ll suggest they change their clothes. If they refuse, but want to come in anyway, I’m going to let the Host address it with them.
Our Church speaks clearly re: what is a sin and what isn’t. You agree on that. What you don’t seem to agree on is what the Church herself says remains largely unexplained. And she doesn’t try to present any argument one way or the other. I’m gonna follow her lead. Chicken or the egg- who cares give me my omelette!I’m going in for the feast, anyone coming? If not, the guests are arriving, can you move the argument to the side of the house so that those who might want to come in can get by?!?:
I apologize for arguing on your thread. I think everyone here should strive to be more like you - at peace and close to God… and not getting upset over what other people say.
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Blacksword
Guest
Thank you for this post! I will continue to pray for your peace and joy in the Church. You, in this post, have just written one of the, frankly, finest and most insightful things I have ever read on this forum. It encapsulated one of the most serious problems I think is facing the Church today, perhaps as important if not more so than gay marriage, abortion, the clergy sex scandal, or any of these other issues so frequently talked about: the constant and often bitter in-fighting and bickering among fellow Catholics. We would all do well to enter into the feast, embrace love and humility, and remember that we are all beggars and sinners at the Lord’s table. God bless you in your journey!:clapping::clapping:As Jesus told the story of the prodigal son, I wonder if he decided to edit it for brevity’s sake. I wonder how long it really took to get to the feast. Surely there was a moment when the son, his brother and their father stood out in the driveway before going inside and argued about the initial cause of the son’s sin. Was he just innately prideful, was it his mom’s fault(notice she isn’t even mentioned-maybe dad ran her off for messing up the kids) maybe it was because the brother had been uncharitable and the kid just couldn’t form healthy relationships. Maybe the son got the idea of going and blowing his part of the family fortune from eavesdropping on the servants as they talked about what they’d do and where they’d go and it sounded appealing to the kid.
Maybe Jesus knew the point was not what caused the sin but the father’s joy at his return. Or heaven forbid, are they all still standing in the driveway arguing, while the feast is going on and to make His point Jesus took artistic license and changed the ending.
At this stage of the thread the original point has been obscured with what is and isn’t a sin, what is and isn’t a choice. I knew there would be some who disagreed with my original explanation.I actually respect those who do so with true charity. And in fact some of your posts have given me some things to think about.And though the “title” of this thread addresses one part of my journey, it is a part of it. The bigger story here is I (like many others) was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see. And my Father has prepared a banquet for me(for us). I’m heading up the drive-way and I’m gonna invite anyone I find along the way to come in( the invitation says bring a friend).
If anyone isn’t dressed properly, I’ll suggest they change their clothes. If they refuse, but want to come in anyway, I’m going to let the Host address it with them.
Our Church speaks clearly re: what is a sin and what isn’t. You agree on that. What you don’t seem to agree on is what the Church herself says remains largely unexplained. And she doesn’t try to present any argument one way or the other. I’m gonna follow her lead. Chicken or the egg- who cares give me my omelette!I’m going in for the feast, anyone coming? If not, the guests are arriving, can you move the argument to the side of the house so that those who might want to come in can get by?!?:
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Edward_H
Guest
It’s telling that you of all people say this, recalling your bikini monologues in other threads, defending any and all baring of body simply because the Catechism didn’t say this or that, or the pope used culture or swimming costumes…and your only defense was that since millimeter level precision guidance had not been used, then any complaint of body baring was unjustified.
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raaucoin
Guest
You are way too nice, lol. I get angry when I see injustice and when good people are being accused of sinning when they are not.
I apologize for arguing on your thread. I think everyone here should strive to be more like you - at peace and close to God… and not getting upset over what other people say.
- I’m not too nice, just trying to lighten my purgatory load!
- There is always room for honest discourse and differing opinions. That’s just exercising the beautiful gift of intellect God has given us.And apology accepted! I don’t get upset about what someone says who is truly seeking to follow the Lord. It took me 43 yrs to get to where I am today and I know I’m not where I’ll end up. If I trust the Holy Spirit can lead me, then I must trust the same for others.But I do beleive that differences can be expressed without causing SCANDAL- as defined as something that can lead others astray and away from the faith, or down right scare the crud out of someone and send them running.
Peace Debora
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raaucoin
Guest
Thanks for your prayers. And I agree with the rest of your comments about a most serious problem we are faced with. We need to remember, However, that God is greater than all of our squabbling and so is the church. We’ll be o.k.!! He said so!
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raaucoin
Guest
HEY!
You were one of the people I was thinking about who gave me something to think about! Don’t loose credibility by being nasty. If you didn’t mean to be nasty, then you should know that it sure comes off that way.Everybody play nice. I’m going to work
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speakttruth
Guest
Hi,
I am happy you are living a chaste life. Your problem is that you are still identifying yourself with your sexual preference and when you state your a lesbian, you are saying that you are attracted to women and are having sexual relations, against the commandment of God. I have a son with this issue. He wants to say he is Gay. That is who I am, just because you are not living a gay lifestyle, doesn’t make it OK to proclaim the affirming wordage for the the rest of the homosexual community. You are fooling yourself. The word Gay was created to make homosexual sex, seem normal and happy. It’s not. I am part of an encourage group, that is part of Courage. The only approved ministry by the Pontificate. www.couragerc.net that helps people with SSA live a chaste life. Check it out. We don’t’ use the words, homosexual, gay, lesbian and such because it demeans a person dignity.
We say someone who is chaste that has SSA same sex attraction or PPH, People practicing or promoting homosexuality. You were six years old when you knew what you were going to be. How did that happen? What was going on at that time in your life. Children at that age don’t experience sexual preferences or understand why they are experiencing things. Admiration yes, which you may have confused at the time. You were not born this way. God didn’t make a mistake. We did. He didn’t create us for the same sex. You want to accept yourself as a lesbian, then in the eyes of the world think you are approving of that lifestyle. It’s a sinful life and you wouldn’t say hi, I am a daughter and a secretary and a adulterer or abortionist? I don’t know who is feeding you this, but it seems like you still want to have it both ways. One foot as a Catholic and one foot in the homosexual community. It’s not a sin to have a SSA, but it is to be a lesbian, because you are affirming and exclaiming that it’s OK to be that way, even if at the time you are not having sex because it’s PPH. It is not something to be proud of. Look at the gay pride parades. They call themselves lesbians, and if you don’t want to be associated with bad behavior then you don’t keep calling yourself that. We don’t go around calling ourselves heterosexual, because it normal and over 90 percent of the population is heterosexual. I don’t tell people what kind of sex I have and proclaiming your gay or what ever, tells people what you do or what you have done and you are not ashamed of it. Stop lying to yourself. Their are reasons from your past that has made you SSA. If you examine it, you will know why.
God Bless
I am happy you are living a chaste life. Your problem is that you are still identifying yourself with your sexual preference and when you state your a lesbian, you are saying that you are attracted to women and are having sexual relations, against the commandment of God. I have a son with this issue. He wants to say he is Gay. That is who I am, just because you are not living a gay lifestyle, doesn’t make it OK to proclaim the affirming wordage for the the rest of the homosexual community. You are fooling yourself. The word Gay was created to make homosexual sex, seem normal and happy. It’s not. I am part of an encourage group, that is part of Courage. The only approved ministry by the Pontificate. www.couragerc.net that helps people with SSA live a chaste life. Check it out. We don’t’ use the words, homosexual, gay, lesbian and such because it demeans a person dignity.
We say someone who is chaste that has SSA same sex attraction or PPH, People practicing or promoting homosexuality. You were six years old when you knew what you were going to be. How did that happen? What was going on at that time in your life. Children at that age don’t experience sexual preferences or understand why they are experiencing things. Admiration yes, which you may have confused at the time. You were not born this way. God didn’t make a mistake. We did. He didn’t create us for the same sex. You want to accept yourself as a lesbian, then in the eyes of the world think you are approving of that lifestyle. It’s a sinful life and you wouldn’t say hi, I am a daughter and a secretary and a adulterer or abortionist? I don’t know who is feeding you this, but it seems like you still want to have it both ways. One foot as a Catholic and one foot in the homosexual community. It’s not a sin to have a SSA, but it is to be a lesbian, because you are affirming and exclaiming that it’s OK to be that way, even if at the time you are not having sex because it’s PPH. It is not something to be proud of. Look at the gay pride parades. They call themselves lesbians, and if you don’t want to be associated with bad behavior then you don’t keep calling yourself that. We don’t go around calling ourselves heterosexual, because it normal and over 90 percent of the population is heterosexual. I don’t tell people what kind of sex I have and proclaiming your gay or what ever, tells people what you do or what you have done and you are not ashamed of it. Stop lying to yourself. Their are reasons from your past that has made you SSA. If you examine it, you will know why.
God Bless
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