Why I instead of we in the Creed?

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fniper

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When we say “we”, we are implying union with those in the pews who share the faith which the Holy Spirit guides the One Holy Church with, Unfortunately the reality is that many in the pews today don’t even know the teachings of the Church or chose to disregard the teachings which do not suit them. Better “I” in that case than uniting ourselves to the “we” that offends the Holy Spirit.
 
Because in Latin the Creed starts off “Credo” which means “I believe” not “we believe”

That is why it’s " I believe" …

Credo…
 
fniper said:
When we say “we”, we are implying union with those in the pews who share the faith which the Holy Spirit guides the One Holy Church with, Unfortunately the reality is that many in the pews today don’t even know the teachings of the Church or chose to disregard the teachings which do not suit them. Better “I” in that case than uniting ourselves to the “we” that offends the Holy Spirit.
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It is a personal profession. When you and the person next to you both say “I believe…” then you are in union. But you personally cannot say “We” because you do not speak for anyone else but yourself.
 
I agree, but must ask why was it changed to “we” for awhile? By the way how do you respond to the posts earlier than the latest post? I am new to this forum today and am still working out the kinks. Thank You for responding.
 
Marie5890 said:
Because in Latin the Creed starts off “Credo” which means “I believe” not “we believe”

That is why it’s " I believe" …

Credo…
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I think I am catching on as to replying. Thank you for replying Marie5890. But I must ask why it was changed from “I” as the original Latin translates, to then used “we”? Why? And then why back again by Pope Benedict, a truely Holy Pope as was John Paul II a great saint of our day.
 
I think it might interest you to know that the Mozarabic rite uses and has always used “we.” Credimus rather than Credo.
 
fniper said:
Hi Dave, thanks for replying. Then why change back to I?
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You’re welcome.

I only know about the original text; I don’t know the rationale behind the flip-flopping but I’m sure others must. From my personal point of view it would seem better to: 1) stick with one or the other and 2) using the original would be more ecumenical–but just my opinion.
 
I do agree that you bring up an interesting tidbit, but unfortunately it does not address the current change and the modern change which this return to “I” addresses. Thank you for replying Patrick. Do you have any info concerning these changes and the motivations behind the multiple reversals they were?
 
Dave_Noonan said:
You’re welcome.

I only know about the original text; I don’t know the rationale behind the flip-flopping but I’m sure others must. From my personal point of view it would seem better to: 1) stick with one or the other and 2) using the original would be more ecumenical–but just my opinion.
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I love our Church for trying to reach out, no matter how fruitful or fruitless that effort has been, The Power of the Holy Spirit is a sure source of Hope, during all times. Sometimes I think we suffer from a lack of true perspective on the many turbulent times which have faced our Church. One of the greatest benefits of the age we pass through is the everlasting torch which will guide many future generations - The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Thanks Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict, warriors for their times.
 
fniper said:
I do agree that you bring up an interesting tidbit, but unfortunately it does not address the current change and the modern change which this return to “I” addresses. Thank you for replying Patrick. Do you have any info concerning these changes and the motivations behind the multiple reversals they were?
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I’m also not entirely sure, but I believe (no pun intended :D) that the 1975 ecumenical version published by ICET (International Consultation on English Texts) and the 1988 version released by its successor body ELLC (English Language Liturgical Consultation) adopted “we” to conform to the form found in the ecumenical councils. At least that’s what I’ve seen so far.
 
fniper said:
I agree, but must ask why was it changed to “we” for awhile? By the way how do you respond to the posts earlier than the latest post? I am new to this forum today and am still working out the kinks. Thank You for responding.
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I don’t think your last questions was answered. You go to the post that you would like to respond to and press the QUOTE button on the bottom. It takes you to the message box and you just scroll down and post your own message in the blank area. I hope that made sense.
 
fniper said:
When we say “we”, we are implying union with those in the pews who share the faith which the Holy Spirit guides the One Holy Church with, Unfortunately the reality is that many in the pews today don’t even know the teachings of the Church or chose to disregard the teachings which do not suit them. Better “I” in that case than uniting ourselves to the “we” that offends the Holy Spirit.
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I agree.

I never felt comfortable declaring before God what “We” believe in, when I know darn well there are plenty of people in the pews who don’t believe it. I certainly wouldn’t testify in court what someone else believes, why would I do so in church?
 
Here is how the Mozarabic Creed goes. (I’ve dealt about it in my blog a couple of years ago.)

Crédimus in unum Deum Patrem omnipoténtem, factórem caeli et terrae, visibílium ómnium et invisibílium Conditórem.

Et in unum Dóminum nostrum Iesum Christum, Fílium Dei Unigénitum, et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula; Deum ex Deo, Lumen ex Lúmine. Deum verum ex Deo vero; natum non factum, Omoúsion Patri, hoc est, eiúsdem cum Patre substántiae; per quem ómnia facta sunt, quae in caelo, et quae in terra. Qui propter nos hómines, et propter nostram salútem, descendit de caelis, et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est. Passus sub Póntio Piláto, sepúltus, tértia die resurréxit, ascéndit ad caelos, sedet ad déxteram Dei Patris omnipoténtis. Inde ventúrus est iudicáre vivos et mórtuos, cujus regni non erit finis.

Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum vivificatórem, et ex Patre et Fílio procedéntem. Cum Patre et Fílio adorándum et conglorificándum; qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, Cathólicam et Apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confitémur unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatórum.
Expectámus resurrectiónem mortuórum, et vitam ventúri saeculi.
Amen.

===

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, creator of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, only-begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. God from God; Light from Light; true God from true God; born, not made, omousion to the Father; that is, of the same substance with the Father; through whom all things were made, which are in heaven and which are on earth. Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became man. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, also proceeding from the Father and the Son (et Filio). With the Father and the Son to be adored and conglorified; who spoke through the prophets.
And one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We confess one baptism for the remission of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

Compare with the current text of the Creed used in the Roman Rite (Latin):

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipoténtem, factórem cæli et terræ, visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.

Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum, Fílium Dei Unigénitum, et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula. Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero, génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri: per quem ómnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem descéndit de cælis. Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est. Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto; passus, et sepúltus est, et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras, et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris. Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória, iudicáre vivos et mórtuos, cuius regni non erit finis.

Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem: qui ex Patre Filióque procédit. Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur: qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.

Out of all the rites, the Mozarabic, Coptic, Ethiopian, Chaldean, and Armenian liturgies use the plural: the Mozarabic has the distinction of being the only Latin liturgical rite to do so. Everyone else uses the singular.
 
grasscutter said:
I don’t think your last questions was answered. You go to the post that you would like to respond to and press the QUOTE button on the bottom. It takes you to the message box and you just scroll down and post your own message in the blank area. I hope that made sense.
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Thanks grasscutter, I am getting the hang of it, thanks for the assist, by the way I am a grass cutter too.
 
Richard320 said:
I agree.

I never felt comfortable declaring before God what “We” believe in, when I know darn well there are plenty of people in the pews who don’t believe it. I certainly wouldn’t testify in court what someone else believes, why would I do so in church?
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Good point Richard, thanks for replying. It does seem Pope Benedict is preparing us with the tools of evangelization which flow from the witness we each give unified by the One Faith the Holy Spirit provides. I am a happy sheep when I roam with the sheep that follow the True Shepherd within the bounds He sets. Our Faith is our shared Joy expressed with voices of different tone and quality but singing the same song in the same choir.
 
patrick457 said:
Here is how the Mozarabic Creed goes. (I’ve dealt about it in my blog a couple of years ago.)

Crédimus in unum Deum Patrem omnipoténtem, factórem caeli et terrae, visibílium ómnium et invisibílium Conditórem.

Et in unum Dóminum nostrum Iesum Christum, Fílium Dei Unigénitum, et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula; Deum ex Deo, Lumen ex Lúmine. Deum verum ex Deo vero; natum non factum, Omoúsion Patri, hoc est, eiúsdem cum Patre substántiae; per quem ómnia facta sunt, quae in caelo, et quae in terra. Qui propter nos hómines, et propter nostram salútem, descendit de caelis, et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est. Passus sub Póntio Piláto, sepúltus, tértia die resurréxit, ascéndit ad caelos, sedet ad déxteram Dei Patris omnipoténtis. Inde ventúrus est iudicáre vivos et mórtuos, cujus regni non erit finis.

Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum vivificatórem, et ex Patre et Fílio procedéntem. Cum Patre et Fílio adorándum et conglorificándum; qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, Cathólicam et Apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confitémur unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatórum.
Expectámus resurrectiónem mortuórum, et vitam ventúri saeculi.
Amen.

===

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, creator of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, only-begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. God from God; Light from Light; true God from true God; born, not made, omousion to the Father; that is, of the same substance with the Father; through whom all things were made, which are in heaven and which are on earth. Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became man. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, also proceeding from the Father and the Son (et Filio). With the Father and the Son to be adored and conglorified; who spoke through the prophets.
And one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We confess one baptism for the remission of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

Compare with the current text of the Creed used in the Roman Rite (Latin):

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipoténtem, factórem cæli et terræ, visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.

Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum, Fílium Dei Unigénitum, et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula. Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero, génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri: per quem ómnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem descéndit de cælis. Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est. Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto; passus, et sepúltus est, et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras, et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris. Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória, iudicáre vivos et mórtuos, cuius regni non erit finis.

Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem: qui ex Patre Filióque procédit. Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur: qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam ventúri sæculi. Amen.

Out of all the rites, the Mozarabic, Coptic, Ethiopian, Chaldean, and Armenian liturgies use the plural: the Mozarabic has the distinction of being the only Latin liturgical rite to do so. Everyone else uses the singular.
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Thank you Patrick you are a true scholar. That darn Tower of Babel. But in our eyes we say much when we pray to our One God in three Persons. Thanks for answering Patrick and you are now in my prayers, please include me in yours.
 
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