Why I kind of hope for legalization of "multiple partner marriage," i.e. polygamy, and other expanded definitions

[ComplineSanFran]

I’m guessing these couples are in the Episcopal Church?

Many of my friends are in the Episcopal Church, yes, since that is where I know them from. But some are Jewish, some are in Protestant churches, and yes, some worship in Roman Catholic churches.

 

[Faithdancer]

Many of my friends are in the Episcopal Church, yes, since that is where I know them from. But some are Jewish, some are in Protestant churches, and yes, some worship in Roman Catholic churches.

And all of their unions are unholy, which of course the Episcopal church now enables. No, sorry, endorses and celebrates. No doubt same sex couples in that organization have a false sense of security since no one there is going to tell them the truth.

If they are living actively homosexual relationships within the Catholic Church they cannot partake of the Eucharist without compounding their mortal sin, according to Roman Catholic dogma. And yes, there are obviously certain Protestant denominations that have gone off the rails. I can’t speak for the Jewish congregations, but most American Jews supposedly support the grotesque parody that is same sex “marriage.”

 

[ComplineSanFran]

And all of their unions are unholy, which of course the Episcopal church now enables. No, sorry, endorses and celebrates. No doubt same sex couples in that organization have a false sense of security since no one there is going to tell them the truth.

If they are living actively homosexual relationships within the Catholic Church they cannot partake of the Eucharist without compounding their mortal sin, according to Roman Catholic dogma. And yes, there are obviously certain Protestant denominations that have gone off the rails. I can’t speak for the Jewish congregations, but most American Jews supposedly support the grotesque parody that is same sex “marriage.”

I watched the movie ‘Philomena’ again the other day, the story of an Irish woman who bore a son when she was a young, not-married girl. Her family took her to the Convent, where she had her baby. The sisters then sold the child to an American family without the mother’s permission.

It happened all the time. And it was all done in secret and shame.

These days we have single mothers raising children with no one batting an eye. Of course if the girl is too young to create a home, we have ways to help sort out right decisions.

All this is to say that for men and women who have been living in secret and shame, it’s now time to put that past us. Our religious communities should be welcoming communities, not ones to point fingers and offer un-asked-for judgements.

I know you believe in black and white rules of the church. I don’t. I can’t. It’s okay that we see things differently, and love God differently. But realistically? Gay marriage is here. And your neighbors are more likely to be a gay married couple than ever before. I do hope we all can be Christ-like in our welcome. Making noises about sin and grotesque paradies is generally not the way to touch a person’s soul.

 

[Faithdancer]

I watched the movie ‘Philomena’ again the other day, the story of an Irish woman who bore a son when she was a young, not-married girl. Her family took her to the Convent, where she had her baby. The sisters then sold the child to an American family without the mother’s permission.

It happened all the time. And it was all done in secret and shame.

These days we have single mothers raising children with no one batting an eye. Of course if the girl is too young to create a home, we have ways to help sort out right decisions.

All this is to say that for men and women who have been living in secret and shame, it’s now time to put that past us. Our religious communities should be welcoming communities, not ones to point fingers and offer un-asked-for judgements.

I know you believe in black and white rules of the church. I don’t. I can’t. It’s okay that we see things differently, and love God differently. But realistically? Gay marriage is here. And your neighbors are more likely to be a gay married couple than ever before. I do hope we all can be Christ-like in our welcome. Making noises about sin and grotesque paradies is generally not the way to touch a person’s soul.

The issue isn’t whether or not people with homosexual inclination should be loved and welcomed in churches. They should. However, they are called to celibacy, period. And same sex “marriage” is indeed an unholy parody. There is not nor can there ever be holy matrimony between people of the same sex. That’s not me talking- that’s Holy Scripture.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

The issue isn’t whether or not people with homosexual inclination should be loved and welcomed in churches. They should. However, they are called to celibacy, period. And same sex “marriage” is indeed an unholy parody. There is not nor can there ever be holy matrimony between people of the same sex. That’s not me talking- that’s Holy Scripture.

And that is where many faith communities have chosen to believe and respond otherwise.

 

[Faithdancer]

And that is where many faith communities have chosen to believe and respond otherwise.

Unfortunately, such communities are no longer Christian if they perform same sex “marriage.” They have forsaken Christ and embraced secular culture, One is either of Christ, or of the world. The Episcopal Church has clearly chosen the latter.

 

[Faithdancer]

That said, you are always welcome in the Anglican Church in North America.

 

[Thorolfr]

That said, you are always welcome in the Anglican Church in North America.

The ACNA seems a little confused about what it believes on the ordination of women. According to the article in Wikipedia:

It also includes those who oppose and support women’s ordination. Women can serve as clergy members in some dioceses, while other dioceses maintain an exclusively male clergy. Women are ineligible to serve as bishops.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Church_in_North_America

I’m not sure why women are good enough to be clergy (but only in some dioceses) but not good enough to be bishops?

 

[frangiuliano115]

That’s what they just did in Ireland and many other “Catholic” countries will soon have same-sex marriage, too, probably including Italy where the Vatican is:

thelocal.it/20150527/tide-turning-in-italy-over-gay-marriage

Two things: Polygamy in the O.T. We’re talking about 3,500 to 4,000 years ago. God revealed Himself slowly and in a way that could be understood. Plus, how far back do you want to go??? Jesus scolded the Woman at the Well in Samaria for having 5 husbands, and a man she was living with.

Also, in Italy they’re going to try to pass a CIVIL UNION law by maybe September or the end of this year, can’t remember right now. It will probably pass. They’re not going to call it “marriage” - which is a step ahead, I guess.

God bless

 

[Faithdancer]

The ACNA seems a little confused about what it believes on the ordination of women. According to the article in Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Church_in_North_America

I’m not sure why women are good enough to be clergy (but only in some dioceses) but not good enough to be bishops?

There is debate within the ACNA itself. Some dioceses allow female ordination as presbyters, some do not. As I’ve stated before, I don’t see much support in Scripture for female priests. I don’t see it in Church tradition, either. I agree with just about everything else that ACNA teaches, however. Perhaps if and when I am ordained, I will make a little difference.

That’s really about all I’ll say about ACNA here because the subject of this thread is marriage (vs. “marriage”).

 

[Faithdancer]

Two things: Polygamy in the O.T. We’re talking about 3,500 to 4,000 years ago. God revealed Himself slowly and in a way that could be understood. Plus, how far back do you want to go??? Jesus scolded the Woman at the Well in Samaria for having 5 husbands, and a man she was living with.

Also, in Italy they’re going to try to pass a CIVIL UNION law by maybe September or the end of this year, can’t remember right now. It will probably pass. They’re not going to call it “marriage” - which is a step ahead, I guess.

God bless

We tend here in America to think that Italy is still a Christian nation. It is not; it is “post-Christian” just like the rest of the Western world. The true Christian nations are the Phillipines and some of the African countries. Can’t forget South Korea, either. But here are some fun statistics: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growth
“Pitcairn Islands?” Really? Aren’t there, like, 10 people on the whole island?

 

[Thorolfr]

Two things: Polygamy in the O.T. We’re talking about 3,500 to 4,000 years ago. God revealed Himself slowly and in a way that could be understood.

You say that God reveals himself slowly and in a way that we can understand. Perhaps He realized that we weren’t ready for same-sex marriage before, but now we are and He is leading us to fully include and embrace LGBT people.

 

[edwest2]

Two things: Polygamy in the O.T. We’re talking about 3,500 to 4,000 years ago. God revealed Himself slowly and in a way that could be understood. Plus, how far back do you want to go??? Jesus scolded the Woman at the Well in Samaria for having 5 husbands, and a man she was living with.

Also, in Italy they’re going to try to pass a CIVIL UNION law by maybe September or the end of this year, can’t remember right now. It will probably pass. They’re not going to call it “marriage” - which is a step ahead, I guess.

God bless

Catholics have a duty to oppose such unions.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

Those sorts of polls are always interesting. What I think it tends to demonstrate (you can show similar kinds of figures for abortion, depending if you have limited circumstances for it, and definitely eg contraception) is that, people even the most other-wise-faithful and pious Catholics in the world, might not condone such things personally (if gay, they would not get into a sexually intimate relationship, or not have an abortion, etc etc), but frankly don’t see why what other people do matters that much.

Whether this is perfect (if slightly mislead) toleration, or what, I’m not sure. But I think it shows that the general attitudes towards the teachings of any particular denomination or faith one belongs to, are for one alone and probably one’s family - not to be inflicted upon people who don’t belong to that same church/faith. It’s not personal apathy towards teaching necessarily, it’s not feeling that teachings that apply to oneself should apply to everyone.

Thus, plenty of people can find support for the legalisation of same sex marriage (etc). While not countenancing it oneself, one can recognise that other reasonable people can have other positions, and there’s no reason to effectively ostracise them on that basis…

:crying: It’s all very confusing!

It’s not confusing at all. Right reason is the best secular argument against same-sex marriage. Catholics, at least, should remember that. They separate themselves when they insist on redefining something as foundational as the family.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

I think the reason many of those homosexuals who have been “married” will strongly oppose polygamous unions is that they don’t just want the rights they already had under “civil unions.” They don’t just want to have their relationship called the same thing as traditional marriage relationships. No, I believe that deep down inside, they want to have relationships that mimic heterosexual relationships in every possible way. And this is because deep down inside, they know what they are doing is wrong but in their denial they think that if society, and ultimately churches, will validate their unholy matrimony then it must truly be as good and right as the real thing, rather than the grotesque mockery it is.

Homosexual activists have already used the fake lie “sexual minorities” to define those who want whatever version of “marriage” they want. Homosexual activists will have no reason to oppose this.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

Hmmm. I am not sure what you are projecting here. I was running through my list of friends and acquaintances who are LGBT and married. Let’s say 50 couples. I have no idea what their views are on polygamy since it doesn’t tend to come up much in conversations, but I very much doubt they are circling the wagons on their own marriages in fear of plural relationships. Most of couples I know are busy at work, creating families, going to church, enjoying their lives. AND being grateful they can now have legal status.

In this case, legal is wrong.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

I watched the movie ‘Philomena’ again the other day, the story of an Irish woman who bore a son when she was a young, not-married girl. Her family took her to the Convent, where she had her baby. The sisters then sold the child to an American family without the mother’s permission.

It happened all the time. And it was all done in secret and shame.

These days we have single mothers raising children with no one batting an eye. Of course if the girl is too young to create a home, we have ways to help sort out right decisions.

All this is to say that for men and women who have been living in secret and shame, it’s now time to put that past us. Our religious communities should be welcoming communities, not ones to point fingers and offer un-asked-for judgements.

I know you believe in black and white rules of the church. I don’t. I can’t. It’s okay that we see things differently, and love God differently. But realistically? Gay marriage is here. And your neighbors are more likely to be a gay married couple than ever before. I do hope we all can be Christ-like in our welcome. Making noises about sin and grotesque paradies is generally not the way to touch a person’s soul.

Gay marriage is a legal fiction. It’s all very black and white. If this were a private matter then none of these “debates” would exist, but the moment gay people demanded something which cannot exist as equal to marriage, that’s when the line was crossed.

The spiritual harm to Catholics who have accepted a lie is just as bad as those living in a false legal situation. If no one speaks up in the Catholic community, we will be held accountable before God. Private sin is private. Public sin is public.

Sin exists in all of us but it is between each one of us and God. Legalizing sin is going to call into question all involved. Those who were involved will have to answer to God just like the rest of us.

A sinner,

Ed

 

[frangiuliano115]

We tend here in America to think that Italy is still a Christian nation. It is not; it is “post-Christian” just like the rest of the Western world. The true Christian nations are the Phillipines and some of the African countries. Can’t forget South Korea, either. But here are some fun statistics: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growth
“Pitcairn Islands?” Really? Aren’t there, like, 10 people on the whole island?

Absolutely correct re Italy being post-christian.

Churches are full of older people, too few priests, the faith is not being passed on to the newer generations.

I feel like we’re even beyond post-christian and are at the persecution stage.

God bless

 

[frangiuliano115]

You say that God reveals himself slowly and in a way that we can understand. Perhaps He realized that we weren’t ready for same-sex marriage before, but now we are and He is leading us to fully include and embrace LGBT people.

Whoa Nellie. Revelation ended with Jesus!

There’s a church in California (sorry, can’t remember the name) whose pastor is a former catholic. I watched an entire service once on youtube and he took bible passages and twisted and turned them to make them say that homosexual relationships are okay. We all want to feel like we’re okay with God. But are we? If you go to a doctor with a lump and he tells you it’s not a tumor you leave happy - but you still have the tumor.

Some churches have accepted this (thus all the previous posts) but have we forgotten the bible?

1 Corinthians 6:9

“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God”.

Wow. That pretty much excludes everybody. But continue reading:

“And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were samctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God”.

I have difficulty understanding what bible (and thus authority) these churches are using that are allowing these unions.

We are all sinners. My problem is that this is a slippery slope. Where will it all end? If we don’t follow God’s laws (which are also natural laws [for the atheist]) WHO will decide what our future world will look like?

I’m an older person and remember all the persecution of homosexual persons. I don’t like that either, of course. But haven’t we totallly tipped the scale in the other direction?
Apparently, equality of acceptance is not enough. What goes on here? What kind of world do we want?

I’m sorry, I’m more practical than intellectual.

God bless you

 

[frangiuliano115]

Catholics have a duty to oppose such unions.

Ed

You’re answering to my post in which I say:

"Also, in Italy they’re going to try to pass a CIVIL UNION law by maybe September or the end of this year, can’t remember right now. It will probably pass. They’re not going to call it “marriage” - which is a step ahead, I guess."

You must be referring to the highlighted sentence.

I don’t agree to any union, but I meant that AT LEAST they’re not going to call it “Marriage”.

I couldn’t agree with you more. If you take the meaning out of Marriage - Marriage has no meaning.

Fran